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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Originally posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    As the proposed amendment to the current law reads, in part:

    6 ‘‘(1) The term ‘action device’ means any boot,
    7 collar, chain, roller, or other device that encircles or
    8 is placed upon the lower extremity of the leg of a
    9 horse in such a manner that it can—
    10 ‘‘(A) rotate around the leg or slide up and
    11 down the leg, so as to cause friction; or
    12 ‘‘(B) strike the hoof, coronet band, fetlock
    13 joint, or pastern of the horse.’’;


    This would include outlawing purely protective bell boots. I take it that TWH do not overreach and clip themselves at any time when gaiting so need never wear protective boots on a show grounds?

    I can't say the same for many people warming up horses of other breeds in other disciplines - Dressage horses often are booted from coronet to knee in front.
    Horses that rack instead of run-walk wear protective boots that touch the coronet band so they are to risk injury?



    I suppose I don't understand why making a poorly enforced, selectively enforced and apparently non-enforced law more restrictive and generalizing in ways that could negatively affect those who don't sore horses is a better choice than putting teeth into enforcing the existing legislation.

    Saying "you oughtn't do ABC (fill in the blank) because if you don't we will maybe slap your wrist and tell you further that you oughtn't do D"
    Is not nearly the deterrent that "Doing ABC will result in everyone connected to the sore horse beiing fined/ eliminated/ excluded from showing any horse for X months, years or finally permanently"


    Perhaps I am wrong, but new laws are as easily not-enforceable as old ones.

    If the horse is sore, does the method of creating soreness make a difference? Shouldn't all soring, no matter what new and horrific method is employed be equally actionable?

    Why pick on boots?

    I have experienced people thinking passing laws will stop bad behavior. And working hard to pass laws that are then applied randomly just as the earlier law was.

    Seriously, enforcing laws works better than making more of them.


    I do hope the plan to end soring works, although I don't think it will end the BL look, if that is the real desire.

    And I won't be happy if I have a horse that needs boots for protection and a letter-of-the-law person finds fault with that.
    Note the terms "friction" and "strike" in the proposal. And for your consideration please note weighted bell boots were also employed to manufacture a sored high step. The law also disallows pads on the foot if not therapeutic.

    What they are in essence dictating is that gaited horses, specifically those breeds that historically have been sored successfully and whose breed associations have not taken demonstrable steps to protect the shown horse from abuse are to be brought to the show ring naked.

    Note how the proposed bill does not include Icelandics? or ROcky Mountain? or Paso FIno? or Peruvian Paso? or Marchador? Mountain Pleasure Horse? etc etc

    And sans the protection of a bell boot you should consider the current day dressage horse, hunter on the flat, speed racking horse etc. If a horse is in a roundy round class going on the flat and striking the fore - might that not be a horse that should not be shown in such events? Or a horse that needs a better trimed foot or rider? and a good one for the show rules to select out? Many show rules do select out such horses by requiring naked legs - I know the Roadster to Bike classes for the ASB crowd does not allow splint boots ... anyone call travesty???


    And consider this - most saddleseat breeds currently are shown sans saddle pads. This could and does present a problem for the low backed horse. But some would say the process of selection in a judged breed class should select out a horse with defects which needs compensation for an undesired back.

    The law in essence would select out soring.

    I agree that the added teeth of banning folks from showing that violate the HPA is a step in the right direction - one the current stacked TWH show folks are fighting against.
    Last edited by hurleycane; Sep. 15, 2012, 06:42 AM.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

    Comment


    • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post

      And sans the protection of a bell boot you should consider the current day dressage horse, hunter on the flat, speed racking horse etc. If a horse is in a roundy round class going on the flat and striking the fore - might that not be a horse that should not be shown in such events? Or a horse that needs a better trimed foot or rider? and a good one for the show rules to select out? Many show rules do select out such horses by requiring naked legs - I know the Roadster to Bike classes for the ASB crowd does not allow splint boots ... anyone call travesty???
      Roadster to bike classes are for Standardbreds or Hackney Ponies, and are occasionally held at Morgan shows. Roadsters are allowed to wear protective quarter boots or bell boots, as someone who knows nothing about roadsters why do you think they need to be allowed to wear splint boots in the ring? When a Saddlebred Five-Gaited horse shows (those are the Saddlebreds that wear boots) they are to show at speed at both the trot and rack, that is why they are allowed to wear boots, please don't make attempts to diminish something you have never done or even witnessed in person (calling it a "roundy round" class).

      Originally posted by hurleycane View Post

      And consider this - most saddleseat breeds currently are shown sans saddle pads. This could and does present a problem for the low backed horse. But some would say the process of selection in a judged breed class should select out a horse with defects which needs compensation for an undesired back.
      Again, showing your ignorance. There is no rule against saddle pads when showing saddle seat in any breed. When they are used we choose black or brown pads that contour to the saddle so as to not be visible. In the Arabian ring the majority of people use a Pro Pad, in the Saddlebred and Morgan ring a lot of people use gel pads or Tacky Tack pads on every horse. If a horse is low backed we go through great lengths to get the saddle to fit correctly (saddle fitters, saddles custom made, just as any other discipline), there are many pads on the market to aid in this, and when we find the right pad we use it all the time, including in the show ring.

      Also low backed horses are penalized in the show ring as it is not a desired trait. It is right in the rules.
      Last edited by Renae; Sep. 15, 2012, 07:10 AM.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        Has anyone taken the ammendment and inserted it into the HPA instead of looking at it stand alone ? I havent yet. Does the specific reference to TWH, SSh and Racking horses now blanket the whole HPA and leave out the possibility of involving other breeds/disciplines ? Are there any areas to be looked at when it goes to committee ?

        Wow about the saddle pads. I hadnt realized how prone the Saddlebred breed was to lordosis. Interesting the use of "invisible" saddle pads not extending beyond the saddle. Renae you bring up a good point that the different breeds can have exclusive problems and issues, so the rules in place address those breed or discipline specific matters. Many of the rules are to protect the horse. TWHs need that protection ! Damn you TWHBEA and various HIOs for not keeping this inhouse.
        from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Renae View Post
          Roadster to bike classes are for Standardbreds or Hackney Ponies, and are occasionally held at Morgan shows. Roadsters are allowed to wear protective quarter boots or bell boots, as someone who knows nothing about roadsters why do you think they need to be allowed to wear splint boots in the ring? When a Saddlebred Five-Gaited horse shows (those are the Saddlebreds that wear boots) they are to show at speed at both the trot and rack, that is why they are allowed to wear boots, please don't make attempts to diminish something you have never done or even witnessed in person (calling it a "roundy round" class).



          Again, showing your ignorance. There is no rule against saddle pads when showing saddle seat in any breed. When they are used we choose black or brown pads that contour to the saddle so as to not be visible. In the Arabian ring the majority of people use a Pro Pad, in the Saddlebred and Morgan ring a lot of people use gel pads or Tacky Tack pads on every horse. If a horse is low backed we go through great lengths to get the saddle to fit correctly (saddle fitters, saddles custom made, just as any other discipline), there are many pads on the market to aid in this, and when we find the right pad we use it all the time, including in the show ring.

          Also low backed horses are penalized in the show ring as it is not a desired trait. It is right in the rules.
          My comments are based on my experience with ASB shows in Tampa FL and a couple of trips to Louiville as well. We never put a pad on a horse in the show ring though we did use them at home. In fact no one used a pad in the show ring. This was in the 80's.

          And my roadster comment was also based on my experience and to point out that these are high speed events in which certain protective gear is prohibited. You gotta admit there is great risk for interference taking a turn at speed right? And again in my experience, a WGC roadster to bike horse in a class was disgualified for a band of black tape added by the trainer the leg to support a recently recovered suspensory. A competitor challenged this "tape" and won the challenge.


          Nothing wrong with boots or a pad or even the tape in my personal opinion. But in the opinion of the show rules, the tape was grounds for disqualification as would be the splint boots. Use any not allowed tack and you are out of the class in just about any show.

          So setting tack limits should not be such an offense to experienced or inexperiended or breed specific experienced horse people.


          BTW - roadster to bike was open to any breed horse that could blaze a trot. In fact a saddlebred used to compete in this arena, successfully.
          from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

          Comment


          • Originally posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
            As the proposed amendment to the current law reads, in part:

            6 ‘‘(1) The term ‘action device’ means any boot,
            7 collar, chain, roller, or other device that encircles or
            8 is placed upon the lower extremity of the leg of a
            9 horse in such a manner that it can—
            10 ‘‘(A) rotate around the leg or slide up and
            11 down the leg, so as to cause friction; or
            12 ‘‘(B) strike the hoof, coronet band, fetlock
            13 joint, or pastern of the horse.’’;


            This would include outlawing purely protective bell boots. I take it that TWH do not overreach and clip themselves at any time when gaiting so need never wear protective boots on a show grounds?

            I can't say the same for many people warming up horses of other breeds in other disciplines - Dressage horses often are booted from coronet to knee in front.
            Horses that rack instead of run-walk wear protective boots that touch the coronet band so they are to risk injury?



            I suppose I don't understand why making a poorly enforced, selectively enforced and apparently non-enforced law more restrictive and generalizing in ways that could negatively affect those who don't sore horses is a better choice than putting teeth into enforcing the existing legislation.

            Saying "you oughtn't do ABC (fill in the blank) because if you don't we will maybe slap your wrist and tell you further that you oughtn't do D"
            Is not nearly the deterrent that "Doing ABC will result in everyone connected to the sore horse beiing fined/ eliminated/ excluded from showing any horse for X months, years or finally permanently"


            Perhaps I am wrong, but new laws are as easily not-enforceable as old ones.

            If the horse is sore, does the method of creating soreness make a difference? Shouldn't all soring, no matter what new and horrific method is employed be equally actionable?

            Why pick on boots?

            I have experienced people thinking passing laws will stop bad behavior. And working hard to pass laws that are then applied randomly just as the earlier law was.

            Seriously, enforcing laws works better than making more of them.


            I do hope the plan to end soring works, although I don't think it will end the BL look, if that is the real desire.

            And I won't be happy if I have a horse that needs boots for protection and a letter-of-the-law person finds fault with that.
            I've used bell boots rarely over the years as we've not engaged in disciplines where they are required. But, from my limited experience as a bell boot user (and considerable experience as an attorney) I don't see a real problem.

            In the first instance, these rules will apply only to a limited number of breeds by statute. The writer is following the "Willie Sutton Rule" and narrowing the scope of application.

            Secondly, the Secretary will have the authority to issue regulations implementing the statute. These regulations will require public hearings. This issue can be raised and addressed.

            Thirdly, there is NO ban on bell boots. There IS a ban on certain uses of bell boots.

            So I don't see this as a major issue.

            Personally, I'm not usually in favor of more intrusive regulation. As a long term veteran of the "soring wars" I'm glad to see more aggressive enforcement and a recognition that "time marches on" and the last statutory update was in the '70s. There's been a fair amount of "water over the dam" since then. And soring has continued, unabated, for decades. So maybe this bit of "change" is a Good Thing.

            G.
            Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

            Comment


            • Things have changed since the '80s. Nearly all Arabian exhibitors use a pad all the time, and with Saddlebreds we freely use pads when there is a saddle fit issue that is best addressed with a pad. Gel pads were not widely used in the '80s and Tacky Tack pads did not exist. All saddle seat saddles made these days have memory or high impact foam panels, and you can even get a model built on a carbon fiber tree. The big innovation in the '80s was the adjustable stirrups bar, which is standard on all saddle seat saddles now.

              Road Horse classes have been limited to registered Standardbreds since the '90s.

              I apologize, you are not working on the basis of no experience or first hand information, but on 30 year old information. You still don't seem to realize that using degrading language towards trotting saddle seat folk and making statements such as ban all action devices (instead of ban action devices in the show ring, which is what the AVMA is saying and what we already do) does not attract us to want to support your methods and efforts.

              Comment


              • Morning;

                Many may not remember when prayers were taken out of schools in 1963.

                I don't think there are many today that will say it didn't not have an profound and measurable effect on our country.

                Today we are faced with another situation that if the majority does not speak up, the other side wins.

                There will be no time in the near foreseeable future which we can get this close to shutting down the terrible things done to these horse.

                The Lickers are right now amassing allot of support to keep things the way they are.

                All you have to do is make a letter up and email it to your State's Representative.

                Ain't asking for no money, or service, just write a email. your vote (letter) will go along ways to ending it all right here and now.

                Judge Sandy Mattice told the newspapers that he received thousands of emails and letters, so we know you are a measurable force.

                Do this one more time for the horse please...

                Here are the email addresses of every lawmaker from every state, find yours and write them please The bill is: H.R. 6388

                http://www.conservativeusa.org/mega-cong.htm

                Myself and other horses so thank you Whinnnnny!

                CWO

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  We are on it !
                  from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by The Preacher View Post
                    Morning;

                    Many may not remember when prayers were taken out of schools in 1963.

                    I don't think there are many today that will say it didn't not have an profound and measurable effect on our country.

                    Today we are faced with another situation that if the majority does not speak up, the other side wins.

                    There will be no time in the near foreseeable future which we can get this close to shutting down the terrible things done to these horse.

                    The Lickers are right now amassing allot of support to keep things the way they are.

                    All you have to do is make a letter up and email it to your State's Representative.

                    Ain't asking for no money, or service, just write a email. your vote (letter) will go along ways to ending it all right here and now.

                    Judge Sandy Mattice told the newspapers that he received thousands of emails and letters, so we know you are a measurable force.

                    Do this one more time for the horse please...

                    Here are the email addresses of every lawmaker from every state, find yours and write them please The bill is: H.R. 6388

                    http://www.conservativeusa.org/mega-cong.htm

                    Myself and other horses so thank you Whinnnnny!

                    CWO
                    Done CWO!!!

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      What nice timing ! Gonna buy one for myself (and to loan out) and one for the local library ! This is a true story.

                      "Ivory Pal's future was bleak. The trainers had tried all the "traditional" Tennessee Walking Horse training techniques - the whips. the padded shoes. Nothing worked with this young horse, not even when his rider angrily hit his head with a whip to get his attention. Try as they might, the trainers could not get Ivory Pal to comply. The palomino colt had simply quit - given up. He became a show horse reject!

                      That is until one glorious day, when everything changed in his life and in the life of his new compassionate owner Rafael Valle.

                      Read the wonderful heart-warming story in this brand new captivating book of 104 pages with over 30 colored photographs by author Cindy McCauley,
                      "Ivory Pal - Born To Fly Higher".


                      http://ivorypalbook.com/index.html
                      from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
                        As the proposed amendment to the current law reads, in part:

                        6 ‘‘(1) The term ‘action device’ means any boot,
                        7 collar, chain, roller, or other device that encircles or
                        8 is placed upon the lower extremity of the leg of a
                        9 horse in such a manner that it can—
                        10 ‘‘(A) rotate around the leg or slide up and
                        11 down the leg, so as to cause friction; or
                        12 ‘‘(B) strike the hoof, coronet band, fetlock
                        13 joint, or pastern of the horse.’’;


                        This would include outlawing purely protective bell boots. I take it that TWH do not overreach and clip themselves at any time when gaiting so need never wear protective boots on a show grounds?

                        I can't say the same for many people warming up horses of other breeds in other disciplines - Dressage horses often are booted from coronet to knee in front.
                        Horses that rack instead of run-walk wear protective boots that touch the coronet band so they are to risk injury?



                        I suppose I don't understand why making a poorly enforced, selectively enforced and apparently non-enforced law more restrictive and generalizing in ways that could negatively affect those who don't sore horses is a better choice than putting teeth into enforcing the existing legislation.

                        Saying "you oughtn't do ABC (fill in the blank) because if you don't we will maybe slap your wrist and tell you further that you oughtn't do D"
                        Is not nearly the deterrent that "Doing ABC will result in everyone connected to the sore horse beiing fined/ eliminated/ excluded from showing any horse for X months, years or finally permanently"


                        Perhaps I am wrong, but new laws are as easily not-enforceable as old ones.

                        If the horse is sore, does the method of creating soreness make a difference? Shouldn't all soring, no matter what new and horrific method is employed be equally actionable?

                        Why pick on boots?

                        I have experienced people thinking passing laws will stop bad behavior. And working hard to pass laws that are then applied randomly just as the earlier law was.

                        Seriously, enforcing laws works better than making more of them.


                        I do hope the plan to end soring works, although I don't think it will end the BL look, if that is the real desire.

                        And I won't be happy if I have a horse that needs boots for protection and a letter-of-the-law person finds fault with that.

                        I believe that the bell boots in question are weighted bell boots. These are not therapeutic or protective.

                        In dressage shows, you are right, horses warm up in polo wraps, sport boots, bell boots, whatever. But when they enter the ring, all that stuff has to come off. If the horse cannot compete in a class without being wrapped then it doesn't need to be competing. Also, horse are not permitted to warmup in side reins or draw reins. This does not mean people don't use them at home, plenty do, but at a show they are not allowed in warmup or in classes. At the regional championships, a trainer is not allowed to warm up a horse for a competitor. All of this levels the playing field and makes sure that competitors can ride and show there horses without assistance or devices. The TW people can still load up the horse with training devices at home, but they should have to take it all off at a show, including the platform shoes, and let the true gaits shine through. This keeps it fair and doesn't give the sorers and the cheaters an unfair advantage.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Renae View Post
                          Things have changed since the '80s. Nearly all Arabian exhibitors use a pad all the time, and with Saddlebreds we freely use pads when there is a saddle fit issue that is best addressed with a pad. Gel pads were not widely used in the '80s and Tacky Tack pads did not exist. All saddle seat saddles made these days have memory or high impact foam panels, and you can even get a model built on a carbon fiber tree. The big innovation in the '80s was the adjustable stirrups bar, which is standard on all saddle seat saddles now.

                          Road Horse classes have been limited to registered Standardbreds since the '90s.

                          I apologize, you are not working on the basis of no experience or first hand information, but on 30 year old information. You still don't seem to realize that using degrading language towards trotting saddle seat folk and making statements such as ban all action devices (instead of ban action devices in the show ring, which is what the AVMA is saying and what we already do) does not attract us to want to support your methods and efforts.
                          This group is just desperate to keep a thread going. They have little to no knowledge of Arabs or Saddlebreds and I have no knowledge of TWH's.

                          Strange...Arab and ASB owners are able to diffentiate...we understand the principle of soring and how it is done. We also understand that FOR THE TWH, due to its history, the owners are going to over react..however you are correct...the more they try and generalize laws that will impact other breeds, the less support they will have..

                          Even Roy quit writing about it...Celebration is now last years news...
                          The Elephant in the room

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                            This group is just desperate to keep a thread going. They have little to no knowledge of Arabs or Saddlebreds and I have no knowledge of TWH's.

                            Strange...Arab and ASB owners are able to diffentiate...we understand the principle of soring and how it is done. We also understand that FOR THE TWH, due to its history, the owners are going to over react..however you are correct...the more they try and generalize laws that will impact other breeds, the less support they will have..

                            Even Roy quit writing about it...Celebration is now last years news...
                            We are not desperate to keep this thread going, we INTEND to keep it going. Do you think Roy is done ? Dont hold your breath. Arabs and saddlebreds are not my breed of choice but i do think they are beautiful and i do like riding an upheaded horse. I think a pinto mare with unknown breeding i had for twenty years was a saddlebred or so i was told by the Pinto Assoc inspectors. I decided not to hardship register her because im just a trailrider. To imply that a person is less of a horseperson because they have not specialized in a particular breed is selfserving and narrowminded on your part Fairfax. Get a life.
                            from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                            Comment


                            • Roy has quit writing about it Fairfax? ROFL! We'll see! What goes on your barn to make you so defensive? It might behoove you to be quiet and lay low. Besides, you admit you know nothing about TWH.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Renae View Post
                                Things have changed since the '80s. Nearly all Arabian exhibitors use a pad all the time, and with Saddlebreds we freely use pads when there is a saddle fit issue that is best addressed with a pad. Gel pads were not widely used in the '80s and Tacky Tack pads did not exist. All saddle seat saddles made these days have memory or high impact foam panels, and you can even get a model built on a carbon fiber tree. The big innovation in the '80s was the adjustable stirrups bar, which is standard on all saddle seat saddles now.

                                Road Horse classes have been limited to registered Standardbreds since the '90s.

                                I apologize, you are not working on the basis of no experience or first hand information, but on 30 year old information. You still don't seem to realize that using degrading language towards trotting saddle seat folk and making statements such as ban all action devices (instead of ban action devices in the show ring, which is what the AVMA is saying and what we already do) does not attract us to want to support your methods and efforts.
                                I have to say Renae I have not in any way tired to degrade any breed. I just simply and vehemently have disagreed with Fairfax on quite a few issues regarding the saddlebred's need for devices. And unlike him I do not kid myself about the benefit or importance of a good skilled farrier in that arena. Not sure if you looked at the pic of my ASB, but I put him up partly as an example of what a shoe can do to that foot flight path that no training, stretchies, rollers etc etc would do.

                                And since being away from the exclusive saddlebred arena, I now better understand some of the other approaches to riding and using a horse. And I understand some of what people did dislike in them (ventroflexion, trappy movement etc). But better than that I can also now and then see true brilliance like I never could before in some of those saddlebreds.

                                "Roundy round" is an affectionate not derogatory term that just about everyone recognizes as a "class on the rail." Which brings to mind something I would love to see: Fuego and Totilas on the rail in the same class with the organ keeping time. It would be a blast. LOL

                                Unlike Fairfax, I feel there is immeasurable value and broad perspective that comes with an unfettered discussion on a message board. SPecially on topics like this it need not be only the professional who comments. It should also be the enthusiast, the trail rider as well as the person who has been there and done that that brings in perspective and light. Most often these non pros are the buyers who fund such endeavors. I think we would all agree they should have a say and the courtesy of being heard.

                                It is JMO but derogatory remarks toward individuals who participate on this important topic or any topic is more "talking out your ass" than say someone like me who "was there" in the 80's and remembers when.

                                Keeping to the subject matter, the horse, the foot, the legislative effort is much more productive and informative than personal pot shot stuff.

                                ALso important is current information on what is going on now.

                                As to this thread dragging out - well lordy no! There is just as keen an interest in a good outcome here as there is in anything horse. Just remember the parties involved have repeatedly shown a lack of self regulation and or judicious humane use of these devices for far too many years. It is like we are dealing with the same mentality of folks that brought on the HPA spot light long long long ago. SO the updates on the effort or new inquiries in this matter are well worth the board space.
                                from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by walknsound View Post
                                  Roy has quit writing about it Fairfax? ROFL! We'll see! What goes on your barn to make you so defensive? It might behoove you to be quiet and lay low. Besides, you admit you know nothing about TWH.
                                  What goes on in my barn is open to anyone. No need to lay low or hide.

                                  I just do not like a group telling me, or other breeders/trainers what training tools and techniques we can use and assuming we are training with a protocol of abuse

                                  I am sure Roy will have more to say...gosh..he will have to work his anti Republican message into something and why not use horses...

                                  Having been the editor for an International Equine magazine during the 80's and 90's (The International Horses Mouth) I can assure you his editor will only keep relevant and hot buttons in print. Of course he will cover the sentencing but as the public move towards the election, Thanksgiving, Christmas..your cause will fly way way south.
                                  The Elephant in the room

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                                  • Er, excuse me, aren't bell boots meant to prevent striking or friction, rather than CAUSE it? Protective bell boots anyway...
                                    Yes, I smell like a horse. No, I don't consider that to be a problem.

                                    Originally posted by DottieHQ
                                    You're just jealous because you lack my extensive koalafications.

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                                    • Originally posted by Niennor View Post
                                      Er, excuse me, aren't bell boots meant to prevent striking or friction, rather than CAUSE it? Protective bell boots anyway...
                                      Aren't pads and wraps also considered protective??

                                      Welcome to TWH land.
                                      from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        Originally posted by Niennor View Post
                                        Er, excuse me, aren't bell boots meant to prevent striking or friction, rather than CAUSE it? Protective bell boots anyway...
                                        They can prevent striking but i beleive they cause friction.

                                        My experience with bell boots with harness horses is that they were used for protection and /or influencing gait. There were soft gummy brown pull-ons and heavier weight white ones and even heavier weight stiffer white ribbed ones. I have no experience with the velcro ones - they were not used back in the day because they were not as secure. The buckle ones were not used either. They werent balanced enough. Often the weight of a bell boot was enough to influence gait without having to go to a heavier shoe or toe weight, side weights, etc. The name of the game was to alter the gait with the least possible weight.

                                        We would trim the bell boots to fit the horse. If left too long, they would slide up and down more, causing irritation and soreness. Left too long, a horse can also step on them and trip. Bell boots can also protect knees, if the horse brushes his knees, but not bad enough to wear knee boots. The depth of the knee boot can make a horse who is coming close actually brush his knee(boots).

                                        In between warmup trips, the bell boots were flipped up and the pastern sponged off and toweled dry. This kept track debris and the actual boot from irritating the heel. Some horses had especially senstive skin and you had to keep an eye on the heels.

                                        So my experience has been that bell boots were both protective and gait altering. Is there room for abuse with bell boots ? There sure could be if the pasterns were sensitive for any reason. If the boots were too big, they would slop around and cause irritation. If they fit right, they are kind of hard to pull on and off. The brown rubber were the most flexible and easiest to pull on. If they pulled on too easy, they were probably a size too big. The white ones were knuckle busters, hard to get on and off. I found this quote this morning:

                                        "Most horses do not mind wearing bell boots and suffer no adverse effects when they are used properly. However, even a correctly fitted bell boot may chafe and cause discomfort to a horse if the material the boot is made of is exceedingly stiff or if the horse has especially sensitive skin".

                                        All of my experience has been with pull-ons which would obviously not be the type used on Big Lick horses. How would you ever pull a boot on over the clown shoes ?
                                        from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

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                                        • Original Poster

                                          Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
                                          Aren't pads and wraps also considered protective??

                                          Welcome to TWH land.
                                          yes, BL trainers have mastered alternate uses havent they ?
                                          from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

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