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*SPINOFF* Breeding a "rescued" horse

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  • #21
    Oh yeah, I spoke with a COTHer in PM after I politely told her that the giveaway board isn't a free for all. ("Please remember that the giveaway board is not a "free-for-all" It's about horse people helping others who can really use the item up for grabs. We abide by the honor system, if you receive, you should eventually give. I see you're new here, thus the PM.") She had posted on SEVERAL ads requesting the item offered.

    This was her response: "Ive been on here looking to calm my herd upset stallion..he needs a lady of his own...not to mention we have 15 in rescue and there is always something we are in need of...so i dont feel i was trying to be greedy...thanks"

    And from there the floodgates opened... My reply: "You run a "rescue" for troubled teens and you have an upset stallion? That sounds wonderful. You posted requesting a breast collar, boots, general tack and clothing, SmartPaks, a Chihuahua, and the vitamin B crumbles. (she has since requested breeches and something else) The COTH group are pretty keen and quick to call someone out. I was just giving you a heads up. Sunkissed Acres is often targeted as a recipient of a lot of giveaway items, but she has proven herself time and time again as a legitimate rescue and offers items in return on the board (including $0 adoption fees on some of her rescues). COTH members are quick to fire upon "rescues" that present themselves as such, but are breeding horses, keeping stallions, or generally can't afford to provide the necessary basics for the horses in their care. We can be considered a snarky bunch, but we keep the best interests of the horses in mind. Just an FYI."

    Her reply: "hmm thanks for the welcome to the group..I do run a rescue..through those horses we keep troubled youth refocussed and out of the streets! Yes i do own a stallion ...i breed responsibly...that s why he hasnt been bred since i had him...thanks for the welcome and making people feel unwelcome at the same time...i wasnt fussing about the other place being a receiver ...I will be here.have a nice day"

    I went to her website and the stallion is a candidate for FHOTD. And gee, you have a stallion that's not being used for breeding and you're surprised that he's agitated? Do that boy a favor and lob his nuts off! He will not be worse off for it.

    To keep the theme of the thread - if the rescue is worthy of breeding and offers stability and improvement to the standard of their breed, by all means, use it for breeding. If the horse is a ho-hum representation and will not produce fabulous babies DO NOT BREED - rescue or not.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #22
      Holly, it sounds like you bred your mare to produce a horse for you. That is not quite the same as breeding to sell, in my book.
      "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

      Comment


      • #23
        You know what?

        The bottom line is that no educated horseperson gets stampeded into making snap decisions in advance about a horse they haven't seen yet. Research is done, professional opinions are sought, as well as obviously the opinions of the rescue involved. These things will all be considered during the decision-making process. But it'd be nice if we could all see the horse first!
        "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

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        • #24
          When we were looking for a new broodmare, we found one at www.saddlebredrescue.com
          Yes, sometimes I look at all the money I'm spending on getting this foal, and add up how many unwanted horses I could save from slaughter with it, and I feel a bit guilty. But, If I were looking for a broodmare, why pass up a nice mare with the traits I was looking for, just because she was once at risk?
          The resulting foal will most likely be owned by us for it's entire life (as the last two have been) or at least we will go to great pains to keep track of it it's whole life. We have often taken back horses we have sold because they were no longer wanted. When you breed a horse, it should be a lifelong commitment. I realize it is impossible for a large scale breeder to keep track of and rehome every animal they have ever produced, but in the Saddlebred community, there are many breeders who will go out of their way to do the right thing when a horse they produced fall on hard times. I'm sure there are those heartwarming stories in many breeds.
          Many mares and probably stallions too, have been rescued specifically because of their breeding potential.
          ::I do not understand your specific kind of crazy, but I do admire your total commitment to it::

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
            But it'd be nice if we could all see the horse first!

            Picky, picky, picky!!
            HaHA! Made-est Thou Look!

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by Chester's Mom View Post
              Picky, picky, picky!!
              Type-A detail-oriented, that's me.
              "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #27
                WA, didn't you work at a rescue? Sunkissed Acres, to be exact? Didn't that make any impression on you? Why would you even THINK of breeding a horse, much less a less-than-stellar TB stallion?

                Do I have to remind anyone of the endless heartbreaking threads over the years? Horses left to starve. Horses "given away" only to end up in kill pens. Rescues full to the barn roof, having to turn away horses.

                It's not a laughing matter.

                You go ahead and rescue the stallion. Then go ahead and breed him. It's a free world. But then you become part of the problem, not part of the solution to the unbelievable amount of overbreeding of horses in this country.
                "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by Madaketmomma View Post
                  Isn't the reason that there are 40 horses to be rescued because they bred unwanted horses in the first place? Take two or three of those horses instead of breeding one.
                  not really...Mr Warren said himself that by giving the animals away that he does not see as big money winners, he STILL as their breeder can recoup money if they win in lower division/money races...he has about 120 new ones each year....he keeps the best and gives away many of the rest...

                  this fellow who he gave them to "junked" them as soon as he got them for quick cash...the breeder said he would take every one of them back if people thought he had anything to do with them heading to a killer sale...
                  Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                  I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Y'know what?

                    This is a matter for the rescue and me. TF has been so busy trying to get these horses out of there that we haven't really had time to discuss it, other than to ascertain that none of us is *totally blindly opposed* to breeding this particular horse IN THEORY.

                    Breeding has been ruled neither IN nor OUT.

                    It will not be a decision taken lightly, that I can promise you.

                    Educated opinions are welcome. Hysteria is not.
                    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
                      Y'know what?


                      Educated opinions are welcome. Hysteria is not.
                      you goal is notable and you should find them good homes...and sometimes good homes ARE breeding homes pure and simple....

                      you have my best for all involved
                      Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                      I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by greysandbays View Post
                        Two Points:

                        1) People doing serious breeding are not breeding for the market as it is TODAY. They are breeding for the market as they believe (hope/pray?) it will be several years down the road when the fruits of their gamble are ready to enter the market.

                        2) Some people's "culls" are better than some people's best stock. Breeders looking to better their herd would be fools to pass up one of those "culls".

                        Actually there's a third point, but somebody made it already: One sport's "cull" is another sport's Superstar.
                        That about sums it up.

                        A couple other things non race people don't realize is that a good many (if not most) of race people don't think beyond the track. If the horse can't run fast and make money it's junk. If the bloodlines aren't marketable it's junk. They throw away junk.

                        Many of the throw aways have beautiful conformation. COULD run but were ruined by bad training or injuries, couldn't run but can jump or do dressage or whatever but unless someone happens to be there to catch them they will never get the chance. Many bloodlines are "good" just not "fashionable". If it isn't up to the latest fad then it won't sell. But people breeding their own horses to race can do very well picking up these nice but "unfashionable" horses as breeding stock.

                        State wise all states are not created equal. The best are in KY, then FL, NY, CA (you all can argue about which goes where! =) A culled stallion in CA can be (as WA pointed out) the best in the state in GA, ID, IA... And in those smaller markets you probably don't have to worry about them overpopulating the TB gene pool. Why should a better stallion be gelded because he was owned by a greedy idiot and a lesser stallion continue to breed because he wasn't??

                        If a horse is breeding quality it is, doesn't matter where it came from. If a horse is NOT breeding quality (for whatever reason) it isn't, again doesn't matter if it came from a feedlot or Darley Stud.

                        As CA breds many of these horses would be great prizes for some breeders in the smaller regional markets around the country and many could make lovely sport horse foals.
                        Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                        Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong View Post
                          Thank you for clarifying that. As you can see, it wasn't read as a joke by more than a few people. When you refer to the GTOBA, it sounds serious.

                          Not funny.
                          Hold on just a moment. It seems a bit of education is in order here.

                          When a stallion changes locations, his production numbers follow him for the purposes of determining his standings. For instance, let's say that Studly stands in KY, has 2 winners from 10 starters, and his earnings are $10,000. He wouldn't even be on the standings in KY, but if he moves to Wyoming, he's top sire. He need not ever cover another mare--it's automatic. That's why you will see deceased or pensioned stallions still in the standings (Allen's Prospect, Crown Pleaser and Eastern Echo are all dead, but are still 6th, 7th and 8th on the Maryland stallion charts.
                          Life would be infinitely better if pinatas suddenly appeared throughout the day.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            I feel that breeding a rescue horse, depends on what the horse itself has to offer in the lines of quality.I have two TB mares that technically I "rescued".One I got for free from the track when her owners called me and asked that I take the horse or she would be going to Canada. The other one was in a not so good situation so I bought her very cheap. Both of the mares have great blood lines, conformation and temperaments. I do use them for breeding. When I sell their foals there is a notation on the JC papers saying I will buy the foal(s) back for so much over meat prices. Every situation is different as is the reason a person may be breeding.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by summerhorse View Post
                              A couple other things non race people don't realize is that a good many (if not most) of race people don't think beyond the track. If the horse can't run fast and make money it's junk. If the bloodlines aren't marketable it's junk. They throw away junk.

                              Many of the throw aways have beautiful conformation. COULD run but were ruined by bad training or injuries, couldn't run but can jump or do dressage or whatever but unless someone happens to be there to catch them they will never get the chance. Many bloodlines are "good" just not "fashionable". If it isn't up to the latest fad then it won't sell. But people breeding their own horses to race can do very well picking up these nice but "unfashionable" horses as breeding stock.
                              Exactly. Some TB breeders are writing off stallions when they've got just two crops of three year olds. Maybe they got good mares, maybe not. No superstars in the first crop, they go down in class and get lesser mares. And so now we have a racing TB pool that is heavy with Mr. Prospector and that is losing some of the tougher, more durable, more slow to mature lines.

                              The point on the stallion that we're discussing is that he is felt to be from one of those lines.

                              The former owner, with hundreds of horses and plenty of money, has a particular goal. This horse was no longer part of that goal.

                              If the man had been patient, and advertised these TB stallions, I suspect that several of them could have sold for a non-rescue price. But it takes time. He didn't want to take time and he didn't care about getting top dollar for his stock. They were unwanted inventory. Not unuseful. Rather like the "end of summer" clothing sales that started at retailers June 1.

                              The horse is a good horse or he's not. His last sales price is irrelevant.

                              For what it's worth, I would've taken Ferdinand from that slaughterhouse in a new york minute, and yes, I would've considered promoting him as a sport horse sire. I suspect I would've had to stand in a long line.

                              Free markets require perfect information, and a lot of TBs end up at risk because no one knows about them in time. That is one of the reasons I so appreciate Tranquility Farm - because they provide time and information, simple things that help nice horses through an unlucky patch.
                              If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Let's suppose someone took a rescued horse, schooled it, and got it winning in the sport horse world. Would you still think it shouldn't be bred, because it was once a rescue?

                                I certainly would never breed or condone breeding foals that I thought would be at risk. But in my experience, the biggest thing that puts a horse at risk is a lack of training; second would be soundness problems.

                                Sadly, there are plenty of horses that get into rescue situations that have no genetic factors that landed them there.
                                If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  [QUOTE]
                                  Originally posted by poltroon View Post

                                  If the man had been patient, and advertised these TB stallions, I suspect that several of them could have sold for a non-rescue price. But it takes time. He didn't want to take time and he didn't care about getting top dollar for his stock. They were unwanted inventory. Not unuseful. Rather like the "end of summer" clothing sales that started at retailers June 1.

                                  Mr Warren also mentioned that jusst consigning them to a sale would have been $220,000....yes they are an inventory...but still a higher end inventory than most folks ever see in their day to day horse dealings
                                  Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                                  I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    [QUOTE]
                                    Originally posted by poltroon View Post
                                    Let's suppose someone took a rescued horse, schooled it, and got it winning in the sport horse world. Would you still think it shouldn't be bred, because it was once a rescue?
                                    considering the low conception and live birth rates of mares even in the best hands it seems a silly requirement....mares cannot have 11 at a time after all
                                    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                                    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Tamara in TN View Post
                                      not really...Mr Warren said himself that by giving the animals away that he does not see as big money winners, he STILL as their breeder can recoup money if they win in lower division/money races...he has about 120 new ones each year....he keeps the best and gives away many of the rest...

                                      this fellow who he gave them to "junked" them as soon as he got them for quick cash...the breeder said he would take every one of them back if people thought he had anything to do with them heading to a killer sale...
                                      so why doesnt he invest his money into a re trianing programme for the horses if he cares that much of where they will end up,, have them gelded re trian them and then place them in decent homes-- sheik mohammad has been doing this in england for a little while now
                                      and moorcroft rescue centre is another one that re trians the race horses to name just two of the equine programmes with have in uk to help the tb racehorse

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by goeslikestink View Post
                                        so why doesnt he invest his money into a re trianing programme for the horses if he cares that much of where they will end up,, have them gelded re trian them and then place them in decent homes-- sheik mohammad has been doing this in england for a little while now
                                        and moorcroft rescue centre is another one that re trians the race horses to name just two of the equine programmes with have in uk to help the tb racehorse
                                        Because he doesn't care. That's why we're in this mess.

                                        But it doesn't mean that the horses themselves might not be nice stock. For some of them, it appears that their biggest sin may be being old.
                                        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Sing Mia Song View Post
                                          Hold on just a moment. It seems a bit of education is in order here.

                                          When a stallion changes locations, his production numbers follow him for the purposes of determining his standings. For instance, let's say that Studly stands in KY, has 2 winners from 10 starters, and his earnings are $10,000. He wouldn't even be on the standings in KY, but if he moves to Wyoming, he's top sire. He need not ever cover another mare--it's automatic. That's why you will see deceased or pensioned stallions still in the standings (Allen's Prospect, Crown Pleaser and Eastern Echo are all dead, but are still 6th, 7th and 8th on the Maryland stallion charts.
                                          Thank you!!! I was just about to explain this.
                                          Is it really worth making personal attacks?? Really?

                                          Honestly...

                                          And, FYI, I have several "rescued" (ie, not making it on the track so I got them for little to no $$), well bred, well put together, sweet mares that I do plan on breeding to produce sport horse foals.
                                          Would someone like to start making personal attacks on me now or later?
                                          -Jessica

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