People don't get freedom unless they are super rich. Pretty sure I work a 40 hour week to keep a middle class standard of living. Why can't I just laze around and enjoy my life as I see fit? Oh, because that's unrealistic. Sounds like a bunch of 4th graders came up with this theory...
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Usually kids of that age group have a tighter grip on reality, in spite of Barney.Originally posted by englishcowgirl View PostComment
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Very true, but sadly, and I guess pessimistically, I've concluded it's not gonna happen. One need only read any number of threads in these parts- people are quick to yell 'abuse' at disciplines they don't participate in --dressage fans condemn eventing, hunter/jumping condemns western pleasure, reiners condemn walking horses, you can keep going and get the full spectrum and really truly, please do realize the above are just random examples among many, so please don't fixate on that. To put it another way, the general mindset is, 'MY chosen discipline is Just Fine, YOURS is cruel.' And so no one ever bucks up and goes after the abuse within their own chosen discipline, and yes, we are rapidly getting to where that we will no longer have that option- idjits and animal rights activists will (and have!) get law enforcement authority and just show up and take your horses without due process. Heck, it already happens but until it happens to 'you', (meaning any one of us, personally), we will as a group just keep our heads in the sand.Originally posted by lolalola View PostComment
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Agreed, but there is a middle ground where abuse to any breed in any activity will no longer be condoned. The existing laws would take care of some of it now. But getting people within their own breed/discipline/neighborhood to step up and blow some whistles is suicidal unless there is enforcement of consequences for the abusers.from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.
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Boycott Mane N Tail this is the year 2012. nyc, the capital of the world. horses should not be used to carry carriages, move tourists around, scare and control people in demos, race for people's pleasure, and any other such use. once slaves did all that. should we go back to those times? please evolve, people. These fine noble animals should only do one thing: enjoy their lives however they choose to, and wherever they choose to, just like you 2 hours ago!"
They might have something with that statement (bolded). I would think it would be very uncomfortable for the horse to "carry" the carriage.
I seen several horses happily "pull" a carriage but never seen a horse with one on it's back.
ETA: Before I get an e-mail from some RARA, ARA, HSUS yahoo asking me to join them because they only read the first 2 sentences of my post (comprehension doesn't seem to their strong point) my horses had better darn work when I want them to. There are no free passes. They get health, dental, clothing, shoes, generous days off, room and board. If I choose not to go to work, I don't get paid. If I don't get paid, they don't get their cushy lifestyle. Now see how easy that is to understand?
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As well as St.Louis; https://neighborland.com/ideas/nola-...mule-carriages https://www.facebook.com/pages/START...am/91565842024Originally posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
New Orleans; https://www.facebook.com/pages/Campa...59137387527338
Montreal ; https://www.facebook.com/anticalechedefensecoalition
General groups ; https://www.facebook.com/groups/7281886468/ ; https://www.facebook.com/BanHDC ; https://www.facebook.com/CarriageHorseCruelty All of these supporting to ban carriages world wide. Take a look at some of who their supporters are HSUS , ASPCA , PETA NYCLass , tons of radical animal rights groups.
The sad and common denominator none of them are promoting animal welfare ..alll of them simply want a ban for something they don't understand or like. They are not animal welfare they are animal abolitionists."I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"Comment
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Where? Where are all the free horses supposed to go? Will they be managed by the BLM? How do the raras feel about helicopter round ups? Will someone vaccinate them? Will fences be erected to keep them off roads? Can I shoot them if they eat my crops? Once the feral horse population reaches deer proportions, will there be a " horse season" for hunters?Originally posted by bayou_bengal View Post
these folks are a tad short sighted, to say the least."Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofgloryComment
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Thanks hackinaround. Will look at these links later. I have to go clear my head.from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.Comment
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Well, some of the horse sanctuaries are already on board supporting raras' campaign to ban carriage horses in NYC. One of them in NYC is called Equine Advocates.
Their president is on record as supporting Intro 86 and its companion bill in the NYC state assembly. There is a youtube video of her embedded on the facebook page called "No Walk In The Park." In it the EA president thanks E. Forel for invitiing her to some event to raise funds to campaign against carriage horses. EA also has a facebook page.
Please be aware- Equine Advocates supports INTRO 86 proposition to ban carriage horses in NYC and force their owners to sell the then-jobless horses ONLY to homes that will keep them as companion animals ONLY. This is a very unrealistic bill.
How many people do you know who can afford to keep a 1,500 to 2,000 lb horse as a pasture ornament? Yes, Intro 86 specifys that the carriage horses forced out of work, if the ban is adopted, cannot EVER be "worked" again. Under NY law "work" for a horse is defiend as being ridden or driven.
While EA may have done some very good things for other horses, its president's support of anti-carriage horse expremists and this proposed Intro 86, is a very BAD thing for carriage hroses in NYC and elsewhere.
She also has a story about "Bobby Freedom II" - their "poster horse" they use when advocating against carriage horses. This is a horse they acquired from AC$H and kill buyer Brian Moore, who had bought him at the New Holland auction.
Billy, who was remaned Bobby" by EA WAS a NYC carriage horse that belonged to one of the carriage owners who, if I remember correctly, is not a member of the Horse and Carriage Association of NYC. Anyway, that owner gave him to an Amish man. It is not clear if the Amish man sent him to the New Holland auction or if he sold or gave the horse to someone who sent him to the auction.
The point is that BILLY/ BOBBY was NOT sent to auction by the NYC carriage owner, nor was he sold by THAT owner to Brian Moore, but Equine Advocates' president tells a story that leaves out this vital info.
And for the record, I have been told that the HCANYC also TRIED to buy Billy from Moore as soon as they found out he had the horse, but the horse had already been sold to E. Forel and EA. Personally, I believe that Forel and EA wouldn't have bought Billy if they had not figured a way to try to use him in their campaign against carriage horses.
I would ask that those so inclined post to the EA fb page to let the president know how misguided her support of this proposal is. On behalf of carriage horses everywhere- Thank you.Comment
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<LIKE> Animal abolitionists- that is a PERFECT description of what they are.Originally posted by hackinaround View Post
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[QUOTE=Shine;6312329]They might have something with that statement (bolded). I would think it would be very uncomfortable for the horse to "carry" the carriage. I seen several horses happily "pull" a carriage but never seen a horse with one on it's back.
Actually the horse pushes not pulls a carriage.
I think if there were a way to clean out the bad apples in the business it would be a big step. I'm always amazed how even people who could step in look the other way.....at the prestigious Villa Louis Classic carriage show there has been a pathetic old gelding, (his head hanging, ribs sticking out, horrid overgrown feet) waiting right at the gate for 'carriage rides'. He stands and drives on blacktop all day....yes she has 'permission' to be there......it that is what is 'presented' at the gate no wonder people point fingers.
That's only one example. I could give bad examples in too many cases......I usually politely ask some questions both of the horse owner and who ever has sponsored the activity and I can honestly say the response has been weak if not downright MYOB.
So if we don't clean up our own problems it leaves us open to further criticism.Comment
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[QUOTE=twadwis;6312419]Do you happen to have pictures ? I do agree about the groups culling those who are not keeping up to standard; however I don't believe in throwing out all of a bushel just because I fine one bad apple.Originally posted by Shine View PostThey might have something with that statement (bolded). I would think it would be very uncomfortable for the horse to "carry" the carriage. I seen several horses happily "pull" a carriage but never seen a horse with one on it's back.
Actually the horse pushes not pulls a carriage.
I think if there were a way to clean out the bad apples in the business it would be a big step. I'm always amazed how even people who could step in look the other way.....at the prestigious Villa Louis Classic carriage show there has been a pathetic old gelding, (his head hanging, ribs sticking out, horrid overgrown feet) waiting right at the gate for 'carriage rides'. He stands and drives on blacktop all day....yes she has 'permission' to be there......it that is what is 'presented' at the gate no wonder people point fingers.
That's only one example. I could give bad examples in too many cases......I usually politely ask some questions both of the horse owner and who ever has sponsored the activity and I can honestly say the response has been weak if not downright MYOB.
So if we don't clean up our own problems it leaves us open to further criticism."I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"Comment
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[QUOTE=twadwis;6312419]Well, have you ever asked the event sponsors why such a poorly kept horse is allowed to participate at their event or in conjunction with it?Originally posted by Shine View PostThey might have something with that statement (bolded). I would think it would be very uncomfortable for the horse to "carry" the carriage. I seen several horses happily "pull" a carriage but never seen a horse with one on it's back.
Actually the horse pushes not pulls a carriage.
I think if there were a way to clean out the bad apples in the business it would be a big step. I'm always amazed how even people who could step in look the other way.....at the prestigious Villa Louis Classic carriage show there has been a pathetic old gelding, (his head hanging, ribs sticking out, horrid overgrown feet) waiting right at the gate for 'carriage rides'. He stands and drives on blacktop all day....yes she has 'permission' to be there......it that is what is 'presented' at the gate no wonder people point fingers.
That's only one example. I could give bad examples in too many cases......I usually politely ask some questions both of the horse owner and who ever has sponsored the activity and I can honestly say the response has been weak if not downright MYOB.
So if we don't clean up our own problems it leaves us open to further criticism.
I used to attend a local RenFest with my students when I was teaching. They have a group of traveling Knights that do the joust shows. They also offer rides on their "chargers" for a fee- $5 for a walk while led around a 80 ft. round pen.
One of the horses had a very nasty infected wound on its rump. I asked the young woman leading the horse what had happened and why the wound wasn't cleaned and some kind of ointment, etc. applied? I mean, I could smell the infection in it and there were flies all over it. And I asked also why a horse with such a wound was being used to give rides.
She tried to tell me the wound was a bite from another horse (didn't look like any bite I had ever seen, it was deep, and looked more like a gouge from a splintered lance.) She said that it had just happened that morning--- she also said that all of their "chargers" were rescued from Pennsylvania auctions and would have been slaughtered if they had not bought them instead to use as knight's chargers.
In truth, they were all drafts or draft crosses.
She also said they didn't apply anything to the wound because, "They didn't have things like that in the Middle Ages." And these are reasons NOT to clean and dress a wound?
Dumb wench.
I told her they had better tend the wound, and that I was going to complain to the RenFest sponsors. And I DID. I don't know if it did that much good, but a friend who went there the next day said the horse was no longer being used for rides, and had what looked like Corona on the wound.
I also heard that a local vendor who was doing wagon rides there also complained about that horse's wound- so see most times carriage horse or other horse people do speak up.
The next year that particular group of traveling knights- who had been there three years in a row- were not there. There was a different group of knights doing the jousts.
It could have been coincidence. But really most event sponsors don't want any negative impressions, so maybe a word to the event sponsors could effect some changes- but then again maybe not.Comment
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[QUOTE=hackinaround;6312444]Not trying to ignore you but that was twadis's post with part of mine edited in.Originally posted by twadwis View Post
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Yes, I smell like a horse. No, I don't consider that to be a problem.
Originally posted by DottieHQComment
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Well I don't think cats will think very highly of them. Remember the difference between dogs and cats?
Dogs think their owner is GOD.
Cats know that they ARE God.Comment
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Exactly. They are planning to topple those deities...Originally posted by bayou_bengal View Post
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This makes me sick.Originally posted by bayou_bengal View Post
How many horses are suffering right now because these piles of excrement are sitting back, holding onto their available space, waiting for a political opportunity? How many horses are dying?
These repugnant buckets of vomit do a disservice to the rescues that do the hard work, saving and rehabilitating horses in need.
It's demented.Comment
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I can only speak for this country, but we're protected more than we know, carriages included, by laws having nothing to do with "animal cruelty." They are the laws concerning "restraint of trade," and they have fairly sharp teeth. In short, you've got to have one heluva compelling legal argument to deny a legitimate businessperson their livelihood. In the absence of a consensus of veterinary opinions that a truly abusive situation exists, legally these people haven't a leg to stand on. They are a noise machine.Originally posted by bayou_bengal View Post
The best thing we as horsemen can do? Make damn-tootin' sure we're not providing any credible ammunition for their propaganda mill. Also, give your peers the benefit of a doubt and back 'em up. There are lots of reasons anyone can have a horse that temporarily presents as "skinny," unfit, or lame.
Calling something "abuse" is like yelling "fire." The truth is that like it or not many people today have both a strong victim identification and a chip on their shoulders that they will happily act out through a "transference" onto animals.Comment
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The animal rights extremists are not playing with a full deck.Originally posted by SwampYankee View Post
This is about PR, as you say, try not to do anything that could be called abusive, but also, how do you defend yourself when their PR has videos of horses napping and the running commentary in their propaganda is the horse is lame because it is resting a leg, worn down because it holds it's head down (while asleep) and being abused with a blindfold when it is wearing a face mask to protect it from insects.
No matter how much you educate the public, all they remember is that such is an abused horse, because that is what their brain first received and won't bother thinking further.
That is what is happening for decades with animal agriculture, the animal rights extremists present some horrible abuse video and insist all are caring like that for their animals, ban animal agriculture.
You can't defend yourself from those with deep pockets that make their living out of hounding you to get donations so they can keep making a living, you are a sitting duck without recourse, as is clear in the case of the NYC carriage business.Comment
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