Spin off: When you are the one being accused of "abuse"--video

[goneriding24]

I used to get tons of looks from the bleeding hearts when I would get after my very tough/reactive/in your space youngster. Funny how she'd behave after a reminder of the consequences of acting like a moron. Best day ever was when I was riding and she was being a tool spooking at the neighbour's lawnmower that he just started. She and I had an interesting few minutes of "You're going to pay attention to your rider not the lawnmower" with the bleeding heart telling me she was just being "dominant" and I should have more patience for her. Whatever-finally got the mare to walk calmly around the ring once and called it a day.

After I got off she offered to hand walk her for a few minutes for me. I gladly handed her over and within five steps the mare spooked into her and almost knocked her down (she's not very agile). She got up and it happened again. She told me that the mare was dangerous. I couldn't help but respond with "She's just being dominant-I'm sure you can work through it with some patience". She asked me to come take her back, so I did. She hasn't given me advice since.

At the very least, this woman put her body and mind where her mouth was. She saw something she thought was wrong (even though she was prolly wrong) and stepped up to the plate. Then got knocked on her can a few times and in a round about way admitted defeat. Unlike another we all know who seems to mouth off but won't lift a hand to 'help' the horse.

[Pat9]

She also thought it was "cruel" (but not abusive!) that I didn't let my horses (or her EP horse) rub their face all over my back and shoulders when I took their bridle off because "well he worked hard, he should get a scratch!" Yeah, with MY HAND. Sorry, but when a 1000lb animal tries to use me as a scratching post, that ain't it.

Love that. I once was unbridling one of the horses when he reached over and tried to rub on me. I told him no, but an acquaintance, standing close by, quickly turned and presented her butt to the horse so that he could rub all his sweaty spots in comfort.

I was so astounded at her generosity that I just stood stunned. She said she did this for all of her horses! Admittedly, it was safer for her than to have a giant bony head slinging around her head, but still...

Regarding the original posting, it's just horrific that people are quick to shriek "abuse" where none exists. Some of them are the same ones who will put up with all sorts of poor behavior, believing that the horse will do (insert request here) "because he LOVES me."

[SwampYankee]

Just last year, I was riding my very thin-skinned and fly-sensitive mare down the road toward home, ending a relaxed around-the-neighborhood hack. Two young ladies driving by pulled over and leapt from their car screeching like howler monkeys about how wrong it was for me to abuse this beautiful animal by riding her blindfolded.

Yup. I ride my mare in a fly mask. It has ears, too ... wonder if they thought she was made deaf as well as blind? Poor Maresy was very, VERY good, but coming close to losing it with the one gal trying to hang off her neck and the other clawing at her face trying to remove the offending mask.

My response was somewhat less than diplomatic ...

"Less than diplomatic?" Holy CRAP, you must have some restraint, dear . . . if that happened to me, I'd start carryin' a SPEAR!

[SwampYankee]

There are some people who don't "get" the difference between "abuse," and "alternative method."

I had an exchange like that at a group trail ride one time; my grand old retired reiner, 28 years young, fit and sound, found himself effortlessly matching stride for stride with the local zone-champion hunter. He was probably the most exquisitely trained horse I've ever had the privilege of sitting on in 40 years; broke by the best of the best and a futurity winner in his day. He was a pinkie-finger-turn-your-eyeballs ride, with more gears than a Peterbilt.

Well, the girl on the zone-champion was gritting her teeth and bridging her reins as her arms were being towed out of their sockets by her big TB's crossing his jaws on her "kind, humane" snaffle bit.

Admitting to admiring my old guy's wonderful way of going, loose-limbed with a free-swinging back, face vertical on a loose rein while just holding his big silver low-port spoon bit in his mouth like it was a baby bird. But then she said, "If he's so light, why do you have to use that "horrid cruel, heavy" bit? I said because he's understood for about 25 years exactly where to place himself in relation to it, my aids can be lighter than a feather. "Huh?"

I had to tell her I really didn't want to deliver a dissertation right then on self-carriage in collection, so to just please take my word for it that things aren't always as they may seem!

[Tehzebra]

Guys, I had a lady tell me my horses shouldn't need fences if they loved me. As she stood there in her moccasins and pajamas, at the vet's, with her fruitbattin' dog on a LEASH.

Did you respond to that?

Admitting to admiring my old guy's wonderful way of going, loose-limbed with a free-swinging back, face vertical on a loose rein while just holding his big silver low-port spoon bit in his mouth like it was a baby bird. But then she said, "If he's so light, why do you have to use that "horrid cruel, heavy" bit? I said because he's understood for about 25 years exactly where to place himself in relation to it, my aids can be lighter than a feather. "Huh?"

As I always say, a bit is only as harsh (and cruel) as the hands that hold it.

[alternate_universe]

I didn't think the poster was putting chains on that were causing pain. People that ride with chains have never been a part of my horse world. All I know is what I have heard over the years. Maybe not all of it is horrible but when I hear it I tend to think that I would not be interested in riding with someone who condones a method of training that may not necessarily be in the long term, best interests of the horse.

I feel the same way about rolkur, big fat guys on reining horses with long shanked harsh bits, 'trainers' who poll their horses and pepperonis.

Rollkur and polling are abusive practices. They cause physical and mental harm.

Shank bits, large riders, and chains/beads on gaited horses are not. When used PROPERLY they do not cause any harm.

Please educate yourself about other disciplines and how they work when done correctly. Otherwise, I'm afraid you'll probably continue to look like a huge youknowwhat to fellow boarders.

[Alagirl]

Rollkur and polling are abusive practices. They cause physical and mental harm.

Shank bits, large riders, and chains/beads on gaited horses are not. When used PROPERLY they do not cause any harm.

Please educate yourself about other disciplines and how they work when done correctly. Otherwise, I'm afraid you'll probably continue to look like a huge youknowwhat to fellow boarders.

Same has been said about rollkur and polling, which I think is poleing...

[ACP]

We got stopped by the highway patrol on the Interstate, someone had called and reported a bunch of horses, all blindfolded, being hauled in a big trailer. I have never tried so hard not to laugh, the look on the guys face when I showed him a fly mask! He just stammered and sputtered. I wasn't angry, but sort of glad the people who had called were paying attention.

[Niennor]

In fact, I believe it IS abuse to keep a horse in a stall 23 + hours a day. A LOT of people keep a 1400 pound animal meant to roam all day in that situation here. We don't keep serial killers in situations that small. But, I don't go around saying that. I HAVE had people call me abusive for keeping my horses in pasture, out in the weather, etc. Yeah.

I'd have to disagree with you on that one. Keeping a horse 23 hours in a stall may not be an ideal situation, but I hardly think it's abusive. Sometimes my (lease) horse gets stalled for that long because there simply was no need for him to be used in a lesson or I didn't have time go and ride him. Trust me, he's not that bothered about it. How do I know this? Because I do turn him out when I get the chance and you know what he does? No taking off strutting around, no whinning, no bucking, he takes a few good rolls, sniffs around for a bit and then turns to me with that face: "Ok, I'm done. Now where's my carrots?"

And, no I don't think exposing your horse to the weather is abusive, unless it's under extreme conditions.

EqTrainer and I have things in common. My private sociopath came on a bulletin board to claim abuse to justify her own sociopathic immoral behavior. You know popping the whip on the butt to get piaffe? Abuse. The lovely made up one was that I duct taped horses' mouths shut to keep them from drinking. Yeah. This is a person who then broke the neck of the horse she justified taking because it "tripped."

For the most part, I see people claiming "abuse" to be the most abusive people. There's an old thing from a sociology class I had that I just read Courtney King-Dye use. We need to punish and praise. Some people refuse to "punish" a horse with quick, hard kick, and thus basically torture the horse with constant kicks and taps. The people that constantly torture their horses are the ones to cry abuse the loudest when someone does a lot more humane, useful correction. Rather than make a useful correction, people truly "abuse" with lunging to death, devices, drugs, keeping them put of shape by only letting them move 45 minutes a day, or whatever.

Sheesh, you weren't kidding when you said that was a sociopath
I'm with you on the punish and praise practice. A quick hard kick/smack in the nose/whipping is also a lot more effective to correct a misbehavior. If you do it right the first time, usually the next a growl is enough to get the horse's attention.

[sketcher]

Rollkur and polling are abusive practices. They cause physical and mental harm.

Shank bits, large riders, and chains/beads on gaited horses are not. When used PROPERLY they do not cause any harm.

Please educate yourself about other disciplines and how they work when done correctly. Otherwise, I'm afraid you'll probably continue to look like a huge youknowwhat to fellow boarders.

Yeah, because the practices used on some of the gaited saddle horses are not ever abusive. And neither was that large man on the well watched video who was hauling on his mares mouth...

BTW, I am a large rider who rides with a shank bit so I'm pretty fully aware that in and of itself it is not abusive.

Also, I don't board. And if I did, it likely wouldn't be at a place that had any of those types of riders. Sorry if you don't like my opinion.

[Bluey]

Same has been said about rollkur and polling, which I think is poleing...

We got stopped by the highway patrol on the Interstate, someone had called and reported a bunch of horses, all blindfolded, being hauled in a big trailer. I have never tried so hard not to laugh, the look on the guys face when I showed him a fly mask! He just stammered and sputtered. I wasn't angry, but sort of glad the people who had called were paying attention.

I'd have to disagree with you on that one. Keeping a horse 23 hours in a stall may not be an ideal situation, but I hardly think it's abusive. Sometimes my (lease) horse gets stalled for that long because there simply was no need for him to be used in a lesson or I didn't have time go and ride him. Trust me, he's not that bothered about it. How do I know this? Because I do turn him out when I get the chance and you know what he does? No taking off strutting around, no whinning, no bucking, he takes a few good rolls, sniffs around for a bit and then turns to me with that face: "Ok, I'm done. Now where's my carrots?"

And, no I don't think exposing your horse to the weather is abusive, unless it's under extreme conditions.


Sheesh, you weren't kidding when you said that was a sociopath
I'm with you on the punish and praise practice. A quick hard kick/smack in the nose/whipping is also a lot more effective to correct a misbehavior. If you do it right the first time, usually the next a growl is enough to get the horse's attention.

Yeah, because the practices used on some of the gaited saddle horses are not ever abusive. And neither was that large man on the well watched video who was hauling on his mares mouth...

BTW, I am a large rider who rides with a shank bit so I'm pretty fully aware that in and of itself it is not abusive.

Also, I don't board. And if I did, it likely wouldn't be at a place that had any of those types of riders. Sorry if you don't like my opinion.

And that is why animal rights extremists have such a field day getting donations and converting people against ANY use of animals, because anything we do regularly with our animals, someone can say they don't like it and present it in the worst light, even if it really is not abuse.

While no one wants any animal abused, there is a level of discomfort all alive by the nature of being alive and in the situations we may be in have to endure.
Humans spend many hours a day in jobs, many of which are hard and could be called abuse, but it is the job at hand and someone has to do it, we can't all just sit idle and only do what we want and gives us pleasure, all day long.
Kids spend years in schools, living in apartments, because it is convenient to those that live like that, even if it is not ideal in an utopian world.

That is the same when it comes to what we do with our animals.
I didn't see adult horses living outside but very rarely, all that were in work were living in stables all their lives, taken out several times a day to be ridden or worked with and by any account were happy horses.
Even those living in standing stalls would rather be there, it was "their" place in the world, than when we had a box stall open and put them there.
If left to go to their stall alone, they would end up in their standing stall.
Horses are like that, more happy with routines than with any ideals of what we may think they should like.

I think that people that really know animals for what they are, not what we build in our imagination they need to be, called anthropomorphism, those people are in a very small minority, to the detriment of our animal's care as if they were being abused directly.

We need to do what suit our lives and our animal's lives according to the situations we are in, try to see that we are all comfortable with the arrangements and if not, change them.
That doesn't mean we should cater to those that don't know any better and let them shame us into not doing what we need, so we are not being called abusers.

In this case, I would not become defensive when someone said the trainer was abusing the mule and needs to be banned from the stables, IF that is the only incident detractors have to go by, but ask why they think the training is not up to their standards and where do they think that training becomes abusive.
Listen to their concerns and then see if they are valid and remedy them, or explain it is your mule, your trainer and you right there to train as you wish, you are not putting that up to a vote.

[philosoraptor]

People do have a right to speak out when they see something that concerns them. In a perfect world, people would be more educated about abuse/cruelty and wouldn't waste everyone's times on "abuse" that really wasn't. The thing is if nobody speaks out when they see abuse, the abuse will never end. Horses cannot speak for themselves; they depend on us to speak for them.

If I see something I am not sure about, I pause and ask myself if there is a better way to accomplish the task without the terror, excessive pain, threat of injury, exhaustion, or other harm to the horse. If there is a better way and someone is choosing to beat the crap out of a horse because it feels good to be in charge and beat something defenseless, then yes I would have a problem.

Re: the mule roundpen video All I can tell you is to not let it bother you. If *you* believe in your heart that nothing wrong was done, then their concerns shouldn't upset you at all. Let them go to the BO or Animal Control. If anyone investigates to find out what happened, if there was no abuse, you have nothing to be worried about. The authorities are just doing their job. Just because Animal Control was called does not mean an animal is being abused.

Abusive practices are still more common than I'd like to think about. Money and ribbons motive some people to do cruel things to their horses. Ignorance, laziness, and ego cause cruelty through simply not knowing any better. And with no standard to being a trainer other than printing out business cards, I see some well-meaning horse owners learning to be unnecessarily cruel to their horse in the name of "leadership" or "showing him you're boss". I find it very upsetting when pro trainers & those winning ribbons at top shows are using unnecessarily cruel methods; they are the role models that others learn from.

[NBChoice]

I didn't think the poster was putting chains on that were causing pain. People that ride with chains have never been a part of my horse world. All I know is what I have heard over the years. Maybe not all of it is horrible but when I hear it I tend to think that I would not be interested in riding with someone who condones a method of training that may not necessarily be in the long term, best interests of the horse.

I guess sometimes because of lack of knowledge combined with a lot of bad publicity over the years. Knee jerk reaction.

That's fine, you can have your own opinion about me. However, I would like to say that it's not entirely fair for you to judge me based on rumors you've heard before about OTHER SS horses or riders. Yeah, I'm sure there have been bad situations with SS horses that you've heard about, but there are many more good things that you haven't heard. Realize that all the bad stuff always makes the news or gets people to gossip--not the good stuff. And there is much more good than bad, they just don't make it into the daily gossip because they're not as "juicy" as the bad stories. Just like with any discipline. This topic has been brought up many many times, so I won't go too in depth with it. All I can say is that your lack of knowledge isn't helping you any. So instead of judging me for occasionally putting on chains that aren't even heavier than a bell boot and deciding without meeting me or my horse that you would never ride with me, please have an open mind and realize that not everyone uses chains for the wrong reasons or in improper ways.

I'll get off of my soapbox now. Thanks.

[SwampYankee]

I think rushing to "judgement" on other people is about 9/10 of this problem. Obviously, there are some situations which virtually everyone would agree are a case of abuse or neglect; starving or denying water, pointless physical punishment, continuing to use a horse that is noticeably very lame are a just a few that come to mind.

While there is still much ignorance out there, which BTW I feel boards like this one do much to dispel, I think that people who knowingly and willfully mistreat their horses are rare. These bad apples should be culled out by the rest of us by refusing to do business with them for any reason. You'd be surprised how fast even the worst will fly in formation with the appropriate "economic sanctions!"

However: It's important to realize the STUFF HAPPENS, and we've all had situations with horses because it just wasn't our lucky day. We all know these beasts have a nearly Machiavellian proclivity for getting caught on things, cast, impaled, kicked, flipped out and just generally doing what might be expected of imperfectly-trained, more or less domesticated 1200-lb. beasts of flight. Most wrecks, pratfalls, "bad days" and awkward moments shouldn't be reputation-wreckers for the people involved.

I do think any wannabe "Internet Crusaders" need to make damn sure they've done their RESEARCH (a la old-fashioned journalists) before howling for the head of someone halfway across the world because of 2 minutes of no-context video they saw on YouTube. Horsemanship of all disciplines and styles is hardly new--it's easy enough to find out whether something you've seen is an accepted practice in that breed or discipline before you go screaming "act of torture!"

I also think sifting the world for Very Bad Things to go off about is probably a mentally unhealthy use of one's time.
Instead, lead by example--make YOUR horse the one every WISHES they owned!

[Kementari]

I was horrified as a teenager to be accused of abusing my horse at a gymkhana. He was being an idiot and rearing and bucking and generally carrying on (not something he usually did, but he was green and not yet used to the busy atmosphere). I got him through the pattern and asked him to halt as I wanted to dismount to leave the ring. As soon as I relaxed the reins and kicked my feet out of the stirrups, he reached around making a snake face like he was going to bite my foot, so I smacked him with the flat of my hand on his neck, and then (when he thought better of his plan) jumped off. He flung his head up (no idea why) and pulled me off balance, so I tripped and jerked down on the reins (not intentionally; just because of the instinctive putting my hands out to catch myself). Two girls went to show management and demanded I be banned from ever showing there again because I had hit my horse and jerked on his mouth. Show management was apparently happy to take their word for it (having not actually witnessed the incident themselves, mind you), and told me I was no longer welcome. I was absolutely mortified and in tears that someone thought I was abusing my horse. Luckily an adult who was with me stood up for me with management and insisted they speak with the judge - who told them that not only had I done nothing wrong, but that if it had been HIM, he would have gone further.

I've also had, as an adult, the more implied accusations, mostly because I WILL punish a horse who is being disobedient, which is apparently a vanishing skill. But I'm old enough now to be secure in my training methods and to know that I do a good job - and that it is not my fault that some people have nothing better to do with their time than leap to judgement in situations they know absolutely nothing about. That said, it can still be a bit disquieting, at least in the moment.

Oh, and I've ridden with saddleseat folks plenty of times, chains, stretchies, etc and all, and so far all of us have lived to tell the tale. Shocking, but true. I actually love being at multi-discipline barns, because it keeps life interesting and gives me the chance to learn new things.

[hundredacres]

I As soon as I relaxed the reins and kicked my feet out of the stirrups, he reached around making a snake face like he was going to bite my foot, so I smacked him with the flat of my hand on his neck, have gone further.

That was very kind of you. If that was me, it would have been a boot to the nose.

[Jazzy's mom]

I bought a 2yo paint who had basically never been handled. He was delivered with a trimmed bridle path and had been gelded at some time, most likely the cowboy way. I spent quite some time getting him halter broke and handleable. He was a big boy as a 2yo and had never had his feet trimmed. After getting to the point of me being able to handle all four feet without issue, my boss (who was also a farrier) said we should trim him. I demonstrated that he was good about having his feet handled and we began. Jazzy wanted nothing to do with my boss or the sensations of having his skis trimmed and started getting nasty about it. Unfortunately it was not a situation that getting after him would have remedied. We ended up tying the front foot we were working on up to his belly, it prevented him from being able to snatch it away and smack it down on the ground. I was standing in the arena holding the leadrope and the lariat rope that we used to tie up his foot. It was right about this time that my mom showed up for a visit(she lived about 5 hrs away). She took one look at the poor abused horse standing on 3 legs and was about to give me hell when Jazzy decided to leave the building. He bolted on 3 legs with both my boss and me hanging on to him to try to get him stopped. We did eventually and finished that foot, tied the other front up and trimmed it too. My mom went from being ready to skin my hide to understanding that what we were doing was the safest option for all of us.
Oh, and my poor abused youngster? He stood like an old ranch horse tied to the arena wall the next time he was trimmed...for all 4!

I think that there are different shades of abuse but a mule slipping and falling and popping up unharmed is not abuse. I cant count the times my big gangly oldenburg took the arena corner too fast when turned out in it and ended up on his side, it was a daily occurance for quite some time.

[Kementari]

That was very kind of you. If that was me, it would have been a boot to the nose.

That's pretty much what I would do now. At the time I was young, shocked (not normal behavior for the horse) and just focused on getting out of that damn ring in one piece!

[S A McKee]

Can I ask, why? I think the poster is merely talking about those light chains that go on like loose bracelets. It'd be like putting a curb chain around their fetlocks. Certainly not pain inducing or permanent. It's just adding something like that gets them to lift their feet higher... just how some horses do when they first wear boots.

Illegal at a USEF show. At best you are kicked out of the show and lose your entry fee. At worst, a steward decides it's abuse and you get reported to the local authorities.

Nothing to do with lack of knowledge, everything to do with disgust for an abusive practice that most hoped would go away with more enlightened practices becoming commonplace.
This is so 1945.
If the NGB bans it that's good enough for me.

[NBChoice]

Isn't it ironic that I'm getting accused of abusing my horse on a thread that is asking if you've ever been accused of abuse?