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Spin off: When you are the one being accused of "abuse"--video

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  • #21
    jenm--That's a lovely mule. Nice trot. Pshaw to everyone criticizing exactly what size or speed distracted mule should be doing. I am disturbed about the reaction to the other thread, too. The problem with starting to call things "abuse,'" is you soon get accused of it.

    In fact, I believe it IS abuse to keep a horse in a stall 23 + hours a day. A LOT of people keep a 1400 pound animal meant to roam all day in that situation here. We don't keep serial killers in situations that small. But, I don't go around saying that. I HAVE had people call me abusive for keeping my horses in pasture, out in the weather, etc. Yeah.

    EqTrainer and I have things in common. My private sociopath came on a bulletin board to claim abuse to justify her own sociopathic immoral behavior. You know popping the whip on the butt to get piaffe? Abuse. The lovely made up one was that I duct taped horses' mouths shut to keep them from drinking. Yeah. This is a person who then broke the neck of the horse she justified taking because it "tripped."

    For the most part, I see people claiming "abuse" to be the most abusive people. There's an old thing from a sociology class I had that I just read Courtney King-Dye use. We need to punish and praise. Some people refuse to "punish" a horse with quick, hard kick, and thus basically torture the horse with constant kicks and taps. The people that constantly torture their horses are the ones to cry abuse the loudest when someone does a lot more humane, useful correction. Rather than make a useful correction, people truly "abuse" with lunging to death, devices, drugs, keeping them put of shape by only letting them move 45 minutes a day, or whatever.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
      Yes. My private sociopath wrote a review on RateMyHorsePro about me that was beyond... I cant even describe it. She even said my farm was (dont remember the exact verbage) unkempt and unsafe and that I didnt take care of the horses. I am certainly not perfect but, just, wow.
      Well, IMO, you were pretty mean to that toe.
      2012 goal: learn to ride like a Barn Rat

      A helmet saved my life.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by Beentheredonethat View Post
        Some people refuse to "punish" a horse with quick, hard kick, and thus basically torture the horse with constant kicks and taps.
        This is my thinking. If you have to correct one of my horses, make it count. If a colt bites or kicks at you, hit him hard and mean it. I won't get mad. I WILL get mad at constant "picking" at a horse.

        I went to watch my horse at the trainers one day. Trainer said during the week horsey-poo turned and kicked at someone who walked in the stall and wouldn't come to the front unless you had a peppermint. I said "Screw the peppermint, I would have gotten a whip. He knows better." Trainer said "I did." Silly animal hasn't tried anything like it since, and I'm almost 100% certain the trainer was nicer to him than I would have been. Horse must have been having a teenager type oppositional defiant spell, because he was very quickly back to acting like the big attention-hogging pet that he's always been.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Bluey View Post
          Never had anyone wonder how I was training any animal, that I remember, will have to think a bit longer about this, good question.
          Then, I was not turned loose to train until I knew what I was doing.
          I was learning for years with very good, confident and experienced horsemen, that knew how training works best with the least fireworks.

          That mule is going pell-mel for a fall, hurried and worried.

          I don't think that is good training and it did come to a fall, expected with running like that in such a small circle, where it was not learning anything but to run frantically around.

          Not at all abuse, just not very good training, sorry.
          A longe line would help with having and teaching control.

          That is a lovely mule, will be really nice once trained past that stage.
          Remember, letting them run around like that will get them fitter, but not any smarter or better trained.
          I see that kind of training all the time.

          As with any such, that could be just a moment in time and not the way the training goes on regularly, although it does look like it may, the way the mule acts, like it has practiced mindless running before.
          I actually agree with Bluey here.

          Mule is very pretty.
          But the mule was racing around cross cantering, and unbalanced. Not much "training" going on.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
            Yes. My private sociopath wrote a review on RateMyHorsePro about me that was beyond... I cant even describe it. She even said my farm was (dont remember the exact verbage) unkempt and unsafe and that I didnt take care of the horses. I am certainly not perfect but, just, wow.
            You have your own private sociopath?! That cannot be good. Sorry.
            www.Somermistfarm.com
            Quality Hunter Ponies

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            • #26
              I'm not going to HIJACK the thread and comment on how the mule is being trained, I am going to respond to the OP's question. Sorry, that seems a bit more - maybe even a lot more - snarky than I intended. But really, people, respond to the OP, okay?

              No, I have never had anyone accuse me of abuse in the way you mean. I did have a client - middle aged shrink with a PSG level dressage horse - make a comment while she watched me lead a butt-headed four year old to the round pen to work off some steam. He outweighed me, oh, ten to one, and kept turning his shoulder and pulling his head away, then trying to cow kick me, jerk loose, and gallop off. I had a chain over his nose, and one of those longer whips with a flat popper on the end. We had a brief Come to Jesus discussion, and he was better. I hit him three. Not thirty. Her comment: "I just hate to see you beating a horse."

              That was a number of years ago, and I still remember how more or less amazed I was at her for being such an idiot. She did not believe in any corrections for horses. Only praise if they did well.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by sketcher View Post
                Ummm. Yeah. To each his own and all that. But I probably wouldn't ride with you either.
                Wow, that was rude.
                People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they're lost.---Dalai Lama

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by TheHorseProblem View Post
                  Well, IMO, you were pretty mean to that toe.
                  Bwahaha, yes, I was! And it is paying me back in spades
                  "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                  ---
                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by ACP View Post
                    But really, people, respond to the OP, okay?

                    Must I remind you, this IS Coth??

                    That was a number of years ago, and I still remember how more or less amazed I was at her for being such an idiot. She did not believe in any corrections for horses. Only praise if they did well.
                    '

                    I was amazed several years ago when someone who used to be big said the same thing. Only praise if they did well. Like when her 1300 lb dumpling had a meltdown, she was stroking the muzzle and telling it nice, warm and fuzzy things. I would have clocked the horse, told him to knock it off, get on and be down the road before Bob's your Uncle!!
                    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Somermist View Post
                      You have your own private sociopath?! That cannot be good. Sorry.
                      Yes. I tried to give her away on the giveaway forum but sadly, no takers.
                      "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                      ---
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

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                      • #31
                        I do once remember being told I not quite abusive but I rushed my horses and didn't take the time with them. I didn't go for four years trying to lay a foundation for flying lead changes and one female thought I was a meany to my horses for that.

                        Once, with an Appy mare, I was so sick and tired of her antics that I felt like I was going across the line, so I stopped in the middle of whatever we were doing (basic groundwork) and just put her up. She knew what manners were, very well broke but I'd bought her from a fellow who was a follower of a TV trainer. The mare was just as tired of me as I was of her. A lady came over and asked if I was okay and was the mare okay. I said yep, got my act together and went home. Started all over the next day. Both mare and I had a chance to think about things and it went soooo much better. But I guess if someone had been watching me get really annoyed, they prolly would have thought I was being doubly mean. Que sera, sera.
                        GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

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                        • #32
                          OT, but I finally watched the video. Your trainer's late brother was my horse's farrier years ago, and my current guy was his assistant.

                          Small world!
                          2012 goal: learn to ride like a Barn Rat

                          A helmet saved my life.

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by sketcher View Post
                            Ummm. Yeah. To each his own and all that. But I probably wouldn't ride with you either.
                            That's fine. Not everyone is open minded about different disciplines.
                            http://www.youtube.com/user/NBChoice http://nbchoice.blogspot.com/
                            The New Banner's Choice- 1994 ASB Mare
                            Dennis The Menace Too- 1999 ASB Gelding
                            Dreamacres Sublime- 2008 ASB Gelding

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                            • #34
                              Yup, last summer. I was on a youngster that was bought for racing. Was trotting around in front of owners when from a trot filly reared up and just stood on hind legs boxing. As soon as she was coming down I walloped her ass, I mean a good one. She went forward and never did that ever again. While all this is happening, idiot boarder is yelling in front of the owners, " what are you doing! You don't beat horses to get them to do what you want, that's abuse!" Got around to her, pulled up filly, and said, "here you go, you ride her! And I'll tell you what, when I get hurt you can do all of my other horses for free! What you don't have anything to say, didn't think so." My owner stepped up and said, "we won't have anyone getting hurt and she deserved that.

                              Filly had passed a 5 star vetting and was a wagon. She's now with one of the best trainers in Ireland and they love her.

                              I didn't see the mule video as on my phone so can't comment but I echo others who have said people who cry about abuse are the guilty ones. Niggling horses, overheating in rugs, left in stable, and never being definite with one.

                              Terri
                              COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                              "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

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                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Beentheredonethat View Post
                                There's an old thing from a sociology class I had that I just read Courtney King-Dye use. We need to punish and praise. Some people refuse to "punish" a horse with quick, hard kick, and thus basically torture the horse with constant kicks and taps.
                                An NH-type trainer I like in my area uses a scale of 1-4 to get across the idea of ask/insist/demand or the incremental increases in force used to elicit response. "1" is a very light ask, "2" and "3" are more forceful, and "4" is a good solid whomp of some sort. He said that the biggest problem most horse handlers have is that they never use either "1" or "4", but muddle along in the middle. It really stuck with me.

                                I have a friend who is/was into Parelli and has always seemed skeptical of how I and my other friends have achieved things with our horses. Like we are cheating by using discipline/punishment, and that she wouldn't WANT to succeed or accomplish such-and-such if it took THOSE KIND of measures. Whatever those are. I think of myself as a softie!
                                Shall I tell you what I find beautiful about you? You are at your very best when things are worst.
                                Starman

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                                • #36
                                  Yes. I boarded with a psycho woman (unbeknownst to my teenage self) who was pretty cool early on, but just went further and further into the deep end. A fellow boarder who landed there after a divorce and I nicknamed the place Rodeo Ranch because it was a constant rodeo. THE WORST kind of backyard breeder, claimed disability yet was working at the barn all day long, and sold a weanling to a family of five as a "family horse they could learn with" when I refused to keep giving one of their DD's lessons because she didn't listen and wouldn't stop banging my horse's face with a C-port western bit.

                                  SO, what brought on the abuse charges?

                                  -Tying my 2-year old up and leaving him in plain sight while I worked my other horse so he would learn patience and manners.
                                  -Kicking said 2-year old back when he tried to kick me for daring to ask him to pick up a back hoof.
                                  -Letting her spoiled-rotten, no-manners, bull-headed English Pleasure horse that I trained/showed FOR FREE conk himself on my elbow when he snaked his head around to bite me.
                                  -Defending myself and my horse with a dressage whip when her 3-year old only-handled-when-bred-to-his-sister stallion nearly bent a 16' gate in half trying to attack us as we walked by his stall

                                  But the absolute cherry on top was when I switched feeds because my horses weren't keeping weight on. I'd been feeding Nutrena for YEARS, loved it, etc, but they were always ribby, despite getting damn near 8lbs/day. I started mixing an oat-based local grain with Nutrena senior for extra calories. She accused me of stealing HER grain to mix with the Nutrena (UM, empty bag in the garbage can...). Then it was "You don't feed your horses enough, you're starving them!" UM, I pay for full care, but end up doing everything but AM feeding myself, your horses always get the "good" hay, and 5x what they should be getting, yet mine get strictly 2 flakes AM/PM of the crappy kind?

                                  As soon as I moved them, they started putting weight on. What a shock, I was able to cut their grain in half because they were actually getting fed. The vet saw them 5 months later and couldn't say enough of how much they had improved.

                                  Yeah. To say she was nuts is putting it lightly. She also thought it was "cruel" (but not abusive!) that I didn't let my horses (or her EP horse) rub their face all over my back and shoulders when I took their bridle off because "well he worked hard, he should get a scratch!" Yeah, with MY HAND. Sorry, but when a 1000lb animal tries to use me as a scratching post, that ain't it.



                                  OP - Lovely mule! Don't let crazy people like that woman get under your skin. I did, and I was just more stressed out until I left. And I, for one, prefer lunging loose in a round pen than on a line 90% of the time.
                                  runnjump86 Instagram

                                  Horse Junkies United guest blogger

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                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by runNjump86 View Post
                                    Yes. I boarded with a psycho woman (unbeknownst to my teenage self) who was pretty cool early on, but just went further and further into the deep end. A fellow boarder who landed there after a divorce and I nicknamed the place Rodeo Ranch because it was a constant rodeo. THE WORST kind of backyard breeder, claimed disability yet was working at the barn all day long, and sold a weanling to a family of five as a "family horse they could learn with" when I refused to keep giving one of their DD's lessons because she didn't listen and wouldn't stop banging my horse's face with a C-port western bit.

                                    SO, what brought on the abuse charges?

                                    -Tying my 2-year old up and leaving him in plain sight while I worked my other horse so he would learn patience and manners.
                                    -Kicking said 2-year old back when he tried to kick me for daring to ask him to pick up a back hoof.
                                    -Letting her spoiled-rotten, no-manners, bull-headed English Pleasure horse that I trained/showed FOR FREE conk himself on my elbow when he snaked his head around to bite me.
                                    -Defending myself and my horse with a dressage whip when her 3-year old only-handled-when-bred-to-his-sister stallion nearly bent a 16' gate in half trying to attack us as we walked by his stall

                                    But the absolute cherry on top was when I switched feeds because my horses weren't keeping weight on. I'd been feeding Nutrena for YEARS, loved it, etc, but they were always ribby, despite getting damn near 8lbs/day. I started mixing an oat-based local grain with Nutrena senior for extra calories. She accused me of stealing HER grain to mix with the Nutrena (UM, empty bag in the garbage can...). Then it was "You don't feed your horses enough, you're starving them!" UM, I pay for full care, but end up doing everything but AM feeding myself, your horses always get the "good" hay, and 5x what they should be getting, yet mine get strictly 2 flakes AM/PM of the crappy kind?

                                    As soon as I moved them, they started putting weight on. What a shock, I was able to cut their grain in half because they were actually getting fed. The vet saw them 5 months later and couldn't say enough of how much they had improved.

                                    Yeah. To say she was nuts is putting it lightly. She also thought it was "cruel" (but not abusive!) that I didn't let my horses (or her EP horse) rub their face all over my back and shoulders when I took their bridle off because "well he worked hard, he should get a scratch!" Yeah, with MY HAND. Sorry, but when a 1000lb animal tries to use me as a scratching post, that ain't it.



                                    OP - Lovely mule! Don't let crazy people like that woman get under your skin. I did, and I was just more stressed out until I left. And I, for one, prefer lunging loose in a round pen than on a line 90% of the time.
                                    I agree big time that the "abuse!" word is misused today by so many that don't have any idea how to handle horses other than good, kind, well trained ones.

                                    I agree that someone else doesn't need to be telling you or your trainer how to train.

                                    While we have the right and even obligation to see that no one abuses their horses, what is abuse and what just someone doing things different than we would, that is not abuse, unless it is directly harming the horse.
                                    There is something called common sense, that ought to tell us if someone is abusive and needs run out of town or just not very good at training.

                                    If the training doesn't seem that good, why not say that, if you feel you have to say something?

                                    I have been to playdays very few times, what goes on, the spurring and yanking is very poor riding and training and I don't like to see it, when doing right by your horse is so much easier on all.

                                    Still, that is not true abuse, although in my book is abusive.

                                    Here, in this video, that is not even abusive, just in that bit of the mule running around like it does, it seems bad training for what we want, a sensible mule moving around and learning to balance and respond to the trainer.
                                    That is the idea of working and training, to get your mule to respond to you and for that, you need the right situation.
                                    To me, that was not the right situation to do that, but definitively not "abuse!", that is a silly accusation.

                                    Then, that may have been one of those times all goes wrong and the mule's senses left it for a bit, not what normally happens in their training, we don't know that.
                                    If that running ragged happens every day, then I would think that is bad training, but still not a reason to call it "abuse!".

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                                    • #38
                                      NBChoice, well I would ride with you. I've had bitless people say that riding with a bit is abuse. Treeless people think saddles with trees are going to ruin my horse's back. At least my horses are barefoot so I don't have to hear the barefoot people tell me to get the shoes off my horse (I'm not a staunch "every horse has to be barefoot" person). My daughter started riding at a Saddlebred barn and they occasionally used the chains and I saw nothing abusive about it at all. (The horses were all, what do they call it... country shod? so their feet were what I would call "normal") The horses were lovely and never abused. I'm sure chains could become abusive, but so can spurs, whips, bits, etc.

                                      So anyway, OP, never been directly called out to a BO or trainer for being abusive to a horse, but I know what you're talking about because I've had random strangers accuse me of child abuse. You know, the people in public who don't have any children with them that know how to handle your kid better than you? I had my less than 1 year old daughter at an airport waiting on someone to fly in. The flight was late, so we had to occupy ourselves at the airport. She had just been fed and changed, and it was time for me to get a snack. She was in the stroller in front of me while I was on line at one of the overpriced airport food shops. I was trying to order and fumble for money and she was FUSSING. I took a moment to pick up a pacifier off her lap and return it to her mouth (it was why she was fussing...she was getting ready to nod off to sleep) and the guy behind me went ballistic "What kind of mom ARE YOU? That baby doesn't need a pacifier! It needs LOVE. How can you just stick a piece of rubber in her mouth? She wants to be picked up or fed! She needs LOVE!" I mean the guy ranted so quick I couldn't even respond. People were staring. I completed my transaction and curtly replied "She ate 10 minutes ago. She was changed 5 minutes ago. It's time for her nap and time for her mom to eat." and left. But REALLY? A scene in the airport? The poor kid was stuck there with me for HOURS and the guy had no background information at all. And from his age and appearance I wouldn't be surprised if he had no kids either.

                                      Anyway, that was not horse-related but just saying I know exactly what it's like for someone to show up, see 2 minutes of action or YouTube video, make random and incorrect assumptions about what is happening, and then try to rake you over the coals.

                                      Also, cute mule!!!

                                      (saying to myself... I don't need a mule... I don't need a mule...)

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Yup! Just last weekend as a matter of fact! Well, not "abuse" but a sneaky USEF steward went to the secretary and asked for my name b/c I jerked my 3yo "a bit harsh"...

                                        My little (16.1h) darling was pawing at me and pushing me all over the place so I jerked her up a few times to get her off of me. We were at a HB show in an indoor on a rainy, cold day and standing around forever with no where to go.

                                        I soooooo wanted to go up to her and ask her if she would hold her for me while I went to the bathroom and then not come back for half an hour...
                                        "A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority." Rick Warren

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                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by ACP View Post
                                          I'm not going to HIJACK the thread and comment on how the mule is being trained, I am going to respond to the OP's question. Sorry, that seems a bit more - maybe even a lot more - snarky than I intended. But really, people, respond to the OP, okay?
                                          Commenting on the video and the story presented in the original post is not "hijacking" a thread.

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