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So who else saw this video on FB today about horse loading/abuse?

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  • #81
    Originally posted by Aelphabae View Post
    I am the original poster of the video in this discussion. I had no motivations in taping this incident outside of documenting a woman losing her temper on a horse who was more than just a little disturbed by her attempts to trailer load him. The event
    took place shortly after the end of the show and if they were abiding by the organizations rules of not packing up to leave until the end of hours on the last show day that means at most they were attempting to load the horse for 30-45 minutes.

    Prior to this I had never seen or heard of this woman and have no personal history with her whatsoever. The statement made below is a complete fabrication and does make the poster liable for a suit of slander. I caution everyone to be careful to what extent they go to in spreading false rumors around in any situation. All that has been provided about the video and the woman involved has been factual and no slander has been made against her. The actions she made in the video are telling enough.
    So that was you, huh? I watched that with the audio on. At one point, it sounded like you said, "Go find a treat or something." Is that really what you said?

    Comment

    • #82
      I don't think we drank the Koolaid because we were appalled by the video. Maybe for some of you this is not so out of the ordinary. I guess I've been lucky in my years and years in horses because I was never exposed to that kind of trainer. Fortunately for me, the people who've made an impression would have walked away if they were that pissed off.

      And frankly, I'd have been more impressed if she'd walked away and come back and dealt with the horse and showed more presence of mind. I wouldn't have judged her on the horse being difficult to load -some horses are difficult to load. I'd have been really impressed if she'd showed me some understanding of coercion, some sensitivity to the horse's response, and some awareness.

      So no, I didn't "drink the Koolaid", my exposure has simply been different. And I am glad the author of the video posted it because we are far too often surprised when some BNT gets outed for bad behavior. It's like the whistle blowers dethroned a messiah. Then we want to shoot the messenger or hush the complainers.

      Paula
      He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

      Comment

      • #83
        I really didn't have an OMG reaction to the video. The horse was being a jerk. He wasn't afraid or unsure of what they wanted, he just didn't want to get on the trailer. His body language was "I ain't gonna' load, and you can't make me." I felt sorry for the woman because it was obvious that she'd gotten so frustrated that she lost her temper. But I'm not going to judge her, because I've lost my temper a time or two myself.

        Comment

        • #84
          "The horse was being a jerk"? Define anthropomorphism. Any trainer who anthropomorphizes like that would never get any of my animals. That kind of anthropomorphism is step one to misunderstanding an animal's cues, and then messing up your strategies to solve challenges. Heck it's usually a good excuse to get angry at the animal since he's just trying to piss you off right?

          Sorry, but your post only validates my position.

          Paula
          He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

          Comment

          • #85
            I watched this again last night and a memory popped up. My old trainer had a QH stud who would not load in a straight load trailer. He would walk his big fat butt right up to the door, happy as you please...then pivot into you and smoosh you against the door frame and door. As a foundation type bulldoggy little QH, he was a wall of horse pinching you and efforts to get him OFF of you resulted in him successfully backing toward you a just a teeny bit (watch your toes) and away from the trailer. A person simply could not shift his shoulders to the right. He would bend into you, using his shoulder as a shovel, and put you wherever he wanted you. Now this same horse was a successful halter horse, and light as a feather in the halter to cues- he was very 'halter broke' he just freaking hated straight load trailers. Now he'd jump in a stock trailer all day long.

            I would just absolutely LOVE to hand old George to the he's just misunderstood crowd and give you a 2h trailer and an hour. On a July afternoon in Alabama. Good luck with that

            Comment

            • #86
              Originally posted by Derby Lyn Farms View Post
              hmmm runaway ponies with "Natural" horsemanship? Someone is doing something wrong. I wouldn't think riding the pony is considered loitering since you are spending a penny to ride it. Sorry, I am getting way off topic here.
              But what if it was a Natural Walmart Horsemanship clinic...and the Door Greeter 'clinician' 'solved' the problem with the horse soooo fast it was a miracle...but then the 'rider' didn't want to buy any of the 'Walmart Cinicians' expensive wares?

              Back to the OP.....I'd have been apauled if it were an aluminum or other metal bat....or whips leaving welts and drawing blood...but mostly...I'm just embarrassed for the idiot who lost her temper/marbles/ability for higher thought functions in public.
              Owned by a Paint/TB and an OTTB.
              RIP Scoutin' For Trouble ~ 2011 at 10
              RIP Tasha's Last Tango ~ 2010 at ~23
              RIP In Sha' Allah ~ 2009 too young at 5

              Comment

              • #87
                Originally posted by Wayside View Post
                I'm honestly curious - if this is the case, how did you know who she was? Other than the license plate, I don't see any identifying info on the rig, though it might just not be apparent on the video.

                ETA: I don't have audio at the moment, so if this question was answered in the sounds associated with the video, I apologize.
                The woman didn't identify herself in the video, but she did later confirm her identity to me directly through an email as well as several people reaching out to me all identifying her as the same person.

                In her email to me she admitted to being the person striking the horse with the bat so there is no denying it is her in the video.

                Comment

                • #88
                  Originally posted by Sithly View Post
                  So that was you, huh? I watched that with the audio on. At one point, it sounded like you said, "Go find a treat or something." Is that really what you said?
                  No, that was not my voice. There was a woman who approached at the very end who came up and said that. You can see her step in front of the camera for a brief moment on the left side.

                  In the video I ask her what farm she is with, what her name is. The other woman is the one who speaks out saying that she is on video and is abusing her horse.

                  Comment

                  • #89
                    Originally posted by Aelphabae View Post
                    No, that was not my voice. There was a woman who approached at the very end who came up and said that. You can see her step in front of the camera for a brief moment on the left side.

                    In the video I ask her what farm she is with, what her name is. The other woman is the one who speaks out saying that she is on video and is abusing her horse.
                    Instead of "filming," why didn't you offer to help?
                    Honey badger don't give a sh!t.

                    Comment

                    • #90
                      Originally posted by justdandy View Post
                      Instead of "filming," why didn't you offer to help?
                      It was my gut feeling that this woman would have no issues with taking her anger out on me, and there was no guarantee that me stepping in would actually improve the situation for the horse. I have learned that my initial reaction was likely correct from some of the people who have reached out to me who used to board and ride with her.

                      Also, getting into some kind of physical confrontation with the woman would not have helped this horse either as it would have merely distracted from what was really at issue - her taking her anger out on the horse being loaded on the trailer.

                      She had not been working to trailer load this horse long. If she had been abiding by the show's rules of not leaving the grounds until after the posted show hours on the last day that is. This was the last horse they loaded in this trailer before pulling out as well.

                      Edited to add : The weather was beautiful, it was not scorching hot and the horse's expression was not one of stubbornness but truly confusion and worry. Also, they did not have a long trailer ride ahead as the barn she's working out of is very close by. If you google Madison, WI distance to Mazomanie, WI.

                      Comment

                      • #91
                        Originally posted by Aelphabae View Post
                        It was my gut feeling that this woman would have no issues with taking her anger out on me, and there was no guarantee that me stepping in would actually improve the situation for the horse. I have learned that my initial reaction was likely correct from some of the people who have reached out to me who used to board and ride with her.

                        Also, getting into some kind of physical confrontation with the woman would not have helped this horse either as it would have merely distracted from what was really at issue - her taking her anger out on the horse being loaded on the trailer.

                        She had not been working to trailer load this horse long. If she had been abiding by the show's rules of not leaving the grounds until after the posted show hours on the last day that is. This was the last horse they loaded in this trailer before pulling out as well.

                        Edited to add : The weather was beautiful, it was not scorching hot and the horse's expression was not one of stubbornness but truly confusion and worry. Also, they did not have a long trailer ride ahead as the barn she's working out of is very close by. If you google Madison, WI distance to Mazomanie, WI.
                        Okaaaayyyy....why would you think she'd take her "anger" out on you when she obviously wasn't showing any kind of anger towards the other people who were helping?

                        Do you think that what you did....posting this woman's home address, phone number, tag number, etc. on youtube...was any better than how she decided to load this horse? She didn't put the horse's life in danger, but you put hers in danger. JMO!
                        Honey badger don't give a sh!t.

                        Comment

                        • #92
                          There's a quote in one of...oh who was it....Mark Rashid's books...

                          Basically to the effect of: Hard as it is, sometimes you just have to walk by. You can't help people who don't know they need/don't want help.

                          And there's another quote, we all know: You can't fix stupid.

                          Not saying the woman was right to play whack-a-mole on the horse's rump, by any means. Posting the vid...sure it'll smear her name and some people will see it and not use her, and MAYBE if she views it herself in a moment of clarity she'll learn to take a few deep breaths, walk away and come back after doing some calm blue ocean, in with the good air out with the bad exercises on herself...or maybe she'll just get that much more pi**ed at the horses for 'making her look bad'. Hard to say, not knowing the individual, but I've met people that could go either way on that one.
                          Owned by a Paint/TB and an OTTB.
                          RIP Scoutin' For Trouble ~ 2011 at 10
                          RIP Tasha's Last Tango ~ 2010 at ~23
                          RIP In Sha' Allah ~ 2009 too young at 5

                          Comment

                          • #93
                            Originally posted by justdandy View Post
                            ...She didn't put the horse's life in danger, but you put hers in danger. JMO!
                            While I agree w/you that the video person should not have disclosed the personal info, I have to say that the horse's life WAS put in danger. Doesn't matter that it was a wiffle bat; conduct like that towards a horse can result in serious injury, and even death, to the horse (or handler, for that matter).

                            I will never forget decades ago at a local horse show when a reluctant horse was trying to be loaded in the trailer with no regard for patience on the handler's part. Horse reared up, hit its head on the back edge of trailer roof, and wham, dead horse.

                            IMO, trailer loading is never anything to be hurried or forced, unless in case of an emergency evacuation case where the alternative might be worse than the risks of getting that horse on as quickly as possible.
                            Equus Keepus Brokus

                            Comment

                            • #94
                              But you can fix ignorance by education. Standing and watching and filming without even attempting to change the way a situation is going certainly fails in that regard.
                              "Aye God, Woodrow..."

                              Comment

                              • #95
                                Aelphabae's website can be read here....

                                http://www.writingofriding.com

                                Very interesting information...
                                Last edited by bluemooncowgirl; Apr. 25, 2012, 11:16 AM. Reason: added another thought...
                                Alis volat propriis.

                                Comment

                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by justdandy View Post
                                  Okaaaayyyy....why would you think she'd take her "anger" out on you when she obviously wasn't showing any kind of anger towards the other people who were helping?

                                  Do you think that what you did....posting this woman's home address, phone number, tag number, etc. on youtube...was any better than how she decided to load this horse? She didn't put the horse's life in danger, but you put hers in danger. JMO!
                                  Those people were part of her group, and in a way fully supporting her, imo brutal, actions. Regardless of the physical harm a plastic bat could impose on the horse, hitting it 21 times with everything you have is more than creating noise and will have an effect on the mental/emotional well being of the horse.

                                  Recording the license plate number was a quick way to help identify the person on the video. I have not posted anywhere her living address and do not support people calling her at her home. Please recheck your facts.

                                  A question : at what point is it more important to protect a person's identity than it is to protect a horse's health and safety? I think that one argument supports the idea that horses are subservient to humans (we are somehow superior) and the other is that horses are not inequal to us in their capability to have feeling, emotion, experience pain, fear, etc.

                                  And, what does it say about us as humans if we have to prove the horse is somehow less than ourselves in order to be okay with the way we train and handle them - beating with a plastic bat included.

                                  There are all sorts of what ifs and why nots that could be applied to this situation, but ultimately it comes down to a woman who lost her temper and took it out on a horse. Horses cannot choose to not be in a relationship with us and so it stands to reason that as a result it is OUR responsibility to ensure that relationship is handled in an appropriate manner. Taking our anger out on the horse is not appropriate in a relationship where they lack free choice.

                                  That the horse did not kick out or otherwise act up is not immediate evidence that he deserved to be hit with the plastic bat or was somehow okay with it. Women in abusive relationships frequently find themselves trapped because the fear they experience trumps the strength needed to break out of the situation.

                                  Calling the horse names is only a form of projection and assumption.

                                  Comment

                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by Long Spot View Post
                                    But you can fix ignorance by education. Standing and watching and filming without even attempting to change the way a situation is going certainly fails in that regard.
                                    True, you can. Providing the ignoramous is willing to let themselves accept that there's ignorance on their part. Somehow, don't think that individual would have been very open to the idea. Which is sad.

                                    I maintain that the only thing any of us should profess to be 'experts' in, is admitting we don't know it all/all the best ways and will never stop learning about this life with horses we've chosen until the day we evict horses from our lives.

                                    Somehow think I'm in the minority on that one, though. Across the board.
                                    Owned by a Paint/TB and an OTTB.
                                    RIP Scoutin' For Trouble ~ 2011 at 10
                                    RIP Tasha's Last Tango ~ 2010 at ~23
                                    RIP In Sha' Allah ~ 2009 too young at 5

                                    Comment

                                    • #98
                                      Again, I do not think the discussion is that the only options for getting a balking horse into a trailer are losing it on his behind with a wiffle bat or talking nicely to him. That is an oversimplification of the discussion. The issue is that it was clear that she lost control and didn't have the presence of mind to stop. Who here hasn't gotten completely pissed off over an animal or a human for that matter? The issue is what do you do then? The answer is -walk away, take a breath. If you don't you're human, but you're also wrong. And if I see you do that I am going to wonder if you can do that in public what do you do in private?

                                      RE:

                                      And, what does it say about us as humans if we have to prove the horse is somehow less than ourselves in order to be okay with the way we train and handle them - beating with a plastic bat included.

                                      I agree.

                                      There are all sorts of what ifs and why nots that could be applied to this situation, but ultimately it comes down to a woman who lost her temper and took it out on a horse. Horses cannot choose to not be in a relationship with us and so it stands to reason that as a result it is OUR responsibility to ensure that relationship is handled in an appropriate manner. Taking our anger out on the horse is not appropriate in a relationship where they lack free choice.

                                      Indeed. She lost control.

                                      That the horse did not kick out or otherwise act up is not immediate evidence that he deserved to be hit with the plastic bat or was somehow okay with it.

                                      We see this discussion all the time. "My horse is dead to aids what can I do?". The options always fall into two camps -get a bigger whip is one camp. Others would remind you that the horse can feel your whip/spur/whiffle but has tuned you out. That other camp reminds you that a horse is sensitive enough to feel a fly land on it's back so it surely feels your aids.


                                      Calling the horse names is only a form of projection and assumption.

                                      Absolutely!

                                      Paula
                                      He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                                      Comment

                                      • #99
                                        Originally posted by Aelphabae View Post
                                        Those people were part of her group, and in a way fully supporting her, imo brutal, actions. Regardless of the physical harm a plastic bat could impose on the horse, hitting it 21 times with everything you have is more than creating noise and will have an effect on the mental/emotional well being of the horse.

                                        Recording the license plate number was a quick way to help identify the person on the video. I have not posted anywhere her living address and do not support people calling her at her home. Please recheck your facts.

                                        A question : at what point is it more important to protect a person's identity than it is to protect a horse's health and safety? I think that one argument supports the idea that horses are subservient to humans (we are somehow superior) and the other is that horses are not inequal to us in their capability to have feeling, emotion, experience pain, fear, etc.

                                        And, what does it say about us as humans if we have to prove the horse is somehow less than ourselves in order to be okay with the way we train and handle them - beating with a plastic bat included.

                                        There are all sorts of what ifs and why nots that could be applied to this situation, but ultimately it comes down to a woman who lost her temper and took it out on a horse. Horses cannot choose to not be in a relationship with us and so it stands to reason that as a result it is OUR responsibility to ensure that relationship is handled in an appropriate manner. Taking our anger out on the horse is not appropriate in a relationship where they lack free choice.

                                        That the horse did not kick out or otherwise act up is not immediate evidence that he deserved to be hit with the plastic bat or was somehow okay with it. Women in abusive relationships frequently find themselves trapped because the fear they experience trumps the strength needed to break out of the situation.

                                        Calling the horse names is only a form of projection and assumption.
                                        Okay...you didn't put her address and phone number out there (I misread that), but you did put her name out there which is easily googled. You said in the details on your video that you gave the video to the local police and filed a complaint. If there is no personal vendetta towards this trainer, then why wasn't that enough? Why did you feel the need to post it on youtube?
                                        Honey badger don't give a sh!t.

                                        Comment

                                        • #100
                                          Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
                                          Again, I do not think the discussion is that the only options for getting a balking horse into a trailer are losing it on his behind with a wiffle bat or talking nicely to him. That is an oversimplification of the discussion. The issue is that it was clear that she lost control and didn't have the presence of mind to stop. Who here hasn't gotten completely pissed off over an animal or a human for that matter? The issue is what do you do then? The answer is -walk away, take a breath. If you don't you're human, but you're also wrong. And if I see you do that I am going to wonder if you can do that in public what do you do in private?

                                          Paula
                                          What Paula said.

                                          So many seem focused on the fact that is was a wiffle bat so no harm done to the horse. But it doesn't matter that it was only a wiffle bat. What matters is she came unglued on the horse. In the video she stomped over and grabbed up the bat. What if a whip would have been handy? Would she have grabbed that instead? Who knows. A lot is open to interpretation and speculation. But the bottom line is she LOST it. And seemed to lose it for quite awhile.

                                          Comment

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