ACK! BO raised rates for my lesson kids

[HelloAgain]

You are comparing apples to oranges -- in all your examples, travel sports team, figure skating competitions, indicate a level of advancement for the student. Comparable to a riding student who is already showing. $50 is not too much for a lesson for quality instruction for a intermediate to high-intermediate riding student. It IS too much for a basic beginner level up-down learn-to-ride lesson.

Riding IS an expensive sport but it should not be prohibitive just to get your feet wet. Ski resorts and skating rinks also offer lower rates for those just starting out. "Initiation programs" for Hockey beginners at my local rink back in Ann Arbor are $330 for 10 sessions... $33 per lesson at a very high end facility (multiple rinks, pro shop, concessions, etc.) I also consider $35 on the high but reasonable side for beginner riding lessons (though my barn charges less).

[julanleb]

Okay... riding is a very expensive sport. And it keeps going up. To be competitive in the H/J world, you're most likely going to lay down at least 35K+++ just to get started. Most horses ALONE [at a competitive level] cost that much, or MUCH, MUCH more. Then you think about the thousands burning away for board, vet, farrier, tack, attire, lessons, showing (incl. class fees, show fees, stall fees, warm up time, braider, groom, coach, trailering, hotel, gas, etc.), ETC. It is absolutely a rich person's sport, and it's certainly not getting any cheaper.

HOWEVER, seeing as we are speaking of beginners, it's a completely different ball game. Almost all figures mentioned about other sports are dictating costs at a competitive level, but we are not talking about that with riding. We're talking about kinds who just want to ride once a week, have fun with horses, have a HOBBY. Compare $50/lesson plus equipment (clothing, possibly brushes, etc) for beginner riding lessons to the cost of beginner skating lessons [and equipment]. That is the point of all this.

It seems the general consensus is that charging $50 a lesson for a beginner is not reasonable in this specific situation. The supply/demand factor is a huge part of any business, and regardless of what it's costing you, as the "supplier," everything is based on what your potential clients are willing to pay. If, in this area (and I know it is definitely not the only area), parents deem $50/lesson too much to pay to let their child putt around and have fun (if they're serious about the sport, it would be a completely different story, with completely different costs), then it IS. That does NOT mean that approx. $40/lesson is sufficient for the BO to cover all costs and/or make a profit (that may or may not be the case, I don't know). But if raising the cost is losing business, then the "demand" in that area is not great enough to validate the change.

IMO just having lessons is NOT a good way to make a profit, nor are other horse-related things such as boarding. My local lesson barn is NON-PROFIT and they have had to up their lessons by $20 a month every year. They did it every year I was there (starting about 10 years ago), and they still do it every year now [that I am gone]. That said, they have NOT lost business (they still having waiting lists for every level, of which there are 12) but that is their particular situation. They are in the middle of the city with the closest barns being 25+ minutes away. What would they do if people stopped riding at the facility because of costs? I don't know, and that's not something they have to consider, as of yet. But it IS something this BO has to consider.

[Jsalem]

Realize that almost all of the lessons taught on these school horses are "beginner" lessons. "Get your feet wet" lessons. Teach all those lessons at less than cost and guess what? Business goes under. Maybe an introductory price for the first month might be a nice thing to do. But after that, the price must be determined by the costs. And of course by the market. But in this area, the market will bear that cost. (I'm in this area. I charge $45 for a schoolie lesson as dakotawyatt said. No problem here. And the barn in question dosen't really have that much competition)

It is what it is- again, every situation is a little different in this business. Is property mortgaged if owned? What are the expenses? And who are we to say they are charging too much? At $50, I think they are pretty much in line with the area considering their location and their facility.

I'll bet that the students that leave might save a few dollars elsewhere. I also bet that they'll be replaced at said barn.

[Just My Style]

Hello Again- I was going to post exactly what you said. My husband played hockey for years and it was VERY expensive. However, he KNEW he liked it. He KNEW he wanted to commit to the expensive equipment. He KNEW he wanted to play on a team and have rink time at the oddest of hours.

The problem, as I see it, with equine sports is there is not an "introductory level". $50 for one lesson is considered a LOT of money to a parent when they don't know that the kid will even enjoy it.

For example: I have a 5 year old son. He is currently taking tennis lessons. It is $50 for (5) hour long/ once a week small group (5 kids)lessons. In addition, he wants to play soccer this spring. It is $75 for the spring season which is March 4th- May 6th. This includes 2 practices per week and one game. Now, if my son takes a liking to either sport and wants to continue on, travel and compete, then I would be more than happy to oblige. If not, he had a nice experince being exposed to a new sport and it didn't break the bank.

That is what I personally feel is missing in the horse industry. If kids aren't able to try it out at an affordable level then they will pick another sport and the equestrian industry will slowly wilt away.

[poltroon]

The $50 may well be what it costs to have the lessons.

However, as a parent I can tell you that $50 for one hour for one kid is not competitive with other activities you might put your kid in, instead. Unless I was personally dedicated to the sport (and I am ), I would see that number and say, "Hey, honey, how about gymnastics? Or soccer?"

As a comparison, my daughter's gymnastics class costs $50 a MONTH.

Having lesson kids does tend to provide a flow of future owners and boarders. It's a sad reality that so many people are intimidated from day 1 by the costs of our sport.

[Jsalem]

I know, but what is the answer? Who is supposed to fund this "affordable" or below cost experience? And the problem is that most parents are content to pay that once a week cost- but then want more.

My frustration with our lesson program lies in the difficulty in getting people out of that $45 a week rut. I can't tell you how many of these parents seriously want to know when their once a weeker can start showing. My position is that they must have a higher commitment level than $45 per week. They must support their own horse if they want to compete (now sometimes we can 1/2 lease or whatever). But people get so frustrated by this! They want to move up, compete- on my horses that also have to do the lesson grind to pay their way. I've lost a couple of students that way to barns that will ship their lesson horses to shows on the weekend to make these parents happy. I just won't do it. I feel like it's a disservice to the animals (almost humiliating) to expect them to compete against horses that are better presented, that only work 5 times a week, etc.

This is an expensive sport. Always has been and always will be. But I also believe that where there's a will, there's a way. Unfortunatley, today's child dosen't have time to muck stalls or groom or do any grunt work. They just don't.

[entropygal]

this whole thing reminds me of a discussion i had umpteen years ago with a barn owner/trainer. upon finding out what i charged per hour, he "exclaimed" how outrageous it was. i pointed out that on a per hour basis, he made alot more. "sputtering" he replied well, he had all those expenses. i replied, since i was self-employed and worked from home i had the exact same expenses AND didn't get re-imbursed for travel. AND i didn't have any assistents doing all the work and handing me 2/3's of the money (cuz at that time i knew what our trainer was getting from our lessons versus our costs).

i was basically arguing with him for amusement as my fixed costs don't eat (of course, HIS can just be shot if a tree falls on them).

ps. anybody will charge what the market will bear and if the market won't bear what covers expenses (plus perhaps a little extra), then the business will go OUT of business. happens all the time. $50 too high?!? time will tell.

[HelloAgain]

Originally posted by Jsalem:
This is an expensive sport. Always has been and always will be. But I also believe that where there's a will, there's a way. Unfortunatley, today's child dosen't have time to muck stalls or groom or do any grunt work. They just don't.

All our students are *required* to groom and tack up. Maybe we are just lucky, or maybe it is because we have a more rural location, or maybe it is just the epxtectations we have set. Those that want to get dirt under their nails stay, others move to other barns with our blessing. We have older students doing barn chores every afternoon as well as mornings on friday and saturday. As the older ones graduate and go away to college, there are younger ones ready to take their place to work in the barn.

Honestly I don't have the answers. But to say it is flat out impossible, is not correct. As somene else said, there are many, many factors involved.

[Just My Style]

I know, but what is the answer? Who is supposed to fund this "affordable" or below cost experience?

I don't know. What I do know is that if the industry does not start "recruiting" new riders to the sport it will die a slow and painful death. If riding were a more wide spread sport that was viewed as something that was not only for the upper class, then more horse farms would remain horse farms instead of being turned in to subdivisions.

[poltroon]

Originally posted by Jsalem:
My frustration with our lesson program lies in the difficulty in getting people out of that $45 a week rut. I can't tell you how many of these parents seriously want to know when their once a weeker can start showing. My position is that they must have a higher commitment level than $45 per week. They must support their own horse if they want to compete (now sometimes we can 1/2 lease or whatever). But people get so frustrated by this! They want to move up, compete- on my horses that also have to do the lesson grind to pay their way. I've lost a couple of students that way to barns that will ship their lesson horses to shows on the weekend to make these parents happy. I just won't do it. I feel like it's a disservice to the animals (almost humiliating) to expect them to compete against horses that are better presented, that only work 5 times a week, etc.

At the barns I started at, we always did our own grooming and tacking up. And we were able to show the lesson horses - that would be a day at a show instead of lessons, the horses were groomed and pampered the best our 10-year-old selves could manage, and we had a great time. Those first shows were 'at home' - rated at one place, schooling shows at the other - so no travel was involved. As for humiliating the horses - well, how would they know?

If you don't want to haul away for "real" shows, why not put on an in-house fun day show? The kids could play and get a chance to win ribbons, no hauling would be required, and it would just be with the school horses so very fair. You can have fun events like walk-trot egg-and-spoon, things that won't tire the horses too much - since surely you'd need to allocate a couple of people per horse so that everyone could ride in one or two classes. Get a friend to judge.

[Jsalem]

Well, we do that. Nice in-house shows. But the parents that I'm talking about aren't satisfied with that. They want to ship to "Wills Park" and show. And it isn't just another day we're talking about. Not all of the kids can show. So some of the Saturday kids couldn't ride that day. The lessons would then be shifted to another day. Pony wouldn't get a break, but would work harder.

[Jsalem]

And I don't agree that the sport is dying out. Riding is huge- huge is this area. While the subdivisions are taking over some of the old farms, beautiful new facilities (like mine) are being built every year.

What is dying out is the back yard, cheap riding that many of us started out with in favor of the glitzy show barns. But in my experience, that's what today's market wants. (See my previous post) We can't get away with a run-down place anymore. The client demands more. And let's face it, it's really nice. I love my barn and it's amenities. It's just expensive.

When I retire, I'll be moving my horses to my lovely 6 acre farm at my house.

[Linny]

Riding is in danger of becoming a sport only for the very wealthy. It was bad enough when I started (1971) but the gap has grown.
Other sports for kids are also pricey but for many of them the introductory lessons are FREE. They come in schools. Soccer, baseball, lacrosse etc are available through schools and community groups sponsor and recruit volunteers for things like little league. My 6 year old son wants to do T-Ball this spring and from March to June it costs $70. He plays 2 games a week plus a practice. He's never played a team sport and knows NOTHING about baseball. I have no clue if he'll like it. I'm willing to risk $70 for the experience.

I know how expensive it is to have a schoolie string. Good beginner horses are worth their wieght in gold. Fuel and feed prices are up. Land and property taxes are brutal. I'm not sure what the answer is. I do like the idea of introductory packages. Five lessons at a reduced rate to at least get the idea if the kid likes the sport.

When I was a kid, riding was a bit more expensive than most other sports but no the gap seems to have grown. It's one thing to compare travel and other costs for a kid in varsity soccer or a nationally ranked gymnast or skater and a kid on the local circuit. There is no other sport where the "start-up costs" are as high. A nationally ranked ice skater never has to buy a $100k pair or skates. To get that high the junior hunter/eq rider has well over 6 figures in costs behind her or him.

[olympicprincess]

Originally posted by Just My Style:
JSalem- I totally see where you are coming from. The problem is that trainers like yourself will eventually not have any clients, because we are discouraging "new blood" in to the industry. Kids will never learn if they love horses or not, if they aren't able to explore them on a lower, more basic level.

Well said both of you. I understand both sides.
I board and own 2 lesson horses. I got out of it for about 6mo because I couldn't justify that it was worth it.
On my beginners horse/walk-only: I charge $25 for 1hr private (I only do private) and $5 of that goes to my BO if it's a non-boarder.
I *intentially* charge less than I do with my more advanced lesson horse to get people in there. Then if they love it and are ready to move on, the $10 increase isn't such a shock.
I also only have the beginner horse b/c she is my retired "lifer". I wouldn't set out to buy an experienced "been there, done that" horse-- I'd NEVER break even! (got my new one for a steal and he's already paid, and then some, for all his expenses thus far and should pay his purchase price by April or May. Again- wouldn't have done it if I'd go broke.)

[Just My Style]

And I don't agree that the sport is dying out. Riding is huge- huge is this area. While the subdivisions are taking over some of the old farms, beautiful new facilities (like mine) are being built every year.

This area is rare. Honestly, it has been the talk of the industry for the past 10 years. I remember sitting around at Equitana years back and discussing the demise of the industry with several well known tack manufacturers who were trying to figure out how to keep their heads above water.

Even the tack stores are having a rough go of it. PetSmart/ Stateline and all the other various mega-catalogers have squashed many of the local tack stores. It is truely a scenario of only the VERY strong survive. And, if you are a manufacturer who does not have a contract with Stateline, Dover and the like, then you will most likely be out of business shortly.

Well said both of you. I understand both sides.

Thanks. And for the record, I have much respect for JSalem. She has one of the best reputations and programs around here. I am very interested in her perspective because she sees the industry in different light than I do. I am not trying to start anything with her. I am genuinely interested in the dialog.

[Jsalem]

Hey, no offense taken. I'm also enjoying this discussion as I get so caught up in my own perspective.

The tack stores are struggling just as any mom and pop store is struggling against the megastores. I don't think it's a matter of being a horse related industry. What I see, though, is that a store with great customer service is still valuable in a market like Atlanta.

And I'm not sure I agree with the perspective that Riding is BECOMING a sport for the very wealthy. It's always been a sport for the wealthy! The difference is the huge middle class in America with disposible income and time for leisure. I was under the impression that the numbers for horse sports were actually growing. Maybe I've got that wrong.

Understand that horses require specialized care and large amounts of space and resources. I don't think the problem is greedy barn owners and trainers. Horses are expensive to keep. We're providing a service to those clients that don't choose to do the work themselves. And as I've said, smart business people price that service based upon costs and the market. And I'm telling you, the market remains strong for that service from where I see it.

The problem becomes how to make riding doable for that student without the $$$. Over the years, I can't tell you how many parents have come to me with their horse crazy daughters and said, "she'll do anything for lessons," etc. The problem is, they expect to RIDE, not clean stalls or do grunt work like I did. I did grunt work. I WAS the groom. Today's typical upper middle class child dosen't mow the lawn at home, dosen't clean the house or babysit on weekends for extra money. Their time seems to be too valuable for that. They are very busy attending SAT prep courses, doing homework, going to the tutor, going on vacation, etc. Think about it! I don't know that it's a bad thing, but most of the parents I know are rasing their kids like rich kids, not like poor kids. Even though I wasn't, I guess I was raised like a poor kid in a way. I worked. So was my daughter.

Figure that my time as an experienced professional is worth, say $40 per hour. Unfortunately, a green kid is worth, what, $8 per hour until they learn some specialized skill? They should expect to toil for 5 hours to pay me for a lesson on one of my horses. Do you know many kids who will do that? Nope, they would think it's fair to work for an hour to pay for an hour lesson. I just don't think so. I don't think that teaches them the right thing.

Now don't think I have all lazy kids. I have a couple of cool, enterprising kids that pay for some of their own stuff- but they are few and far between. Funny, they're the ones who ride without their stirrups without prompting--hmmm. Interesting.

[Trakehner]

"...My husband played hockey for years and it was VERY expensive. However, he KNEW he liked it. He KNEW he wanted to commit to the expensive equipment. He KNEW he wanted to play on a team and have rink time at the oddest of hours.

Yeah, but the problem is: it costs the same for your husband to play hockey as it does for a kid...same rink time, equipment and coaching required...plus, even more coaching since you're dealing with kids...plus insurance concerns.

"The problem, as I see it, with equine sports is there is not an "introductory level". $50 for one lesson is considered a LOT of money to a parent when they don't know that the kid will even enjoy it."

Yeah..but it costs the same for a kids lesson as it does for a beginning adult. Same horse, instructor, infrastructure costs...just because it's a kid doesn't make it cheaper.

"For example: I have a 5 year old son. He is currently taking tennis lessons. It is $50 for (5) hour long/ once a week small group (5 kids)lessons. In addition, he wants to play soccer this spring. It is $75 for the spring season which is March 4th- May 6th. This includes 2 practices per week and one game. Now, if my son takes a liking to either sport and wants to continue on, travel and compete, then I would be more than happy to oblige. If not, he had a nice experince being exposed to a new sport and it didn't break the bank."

Yeah....but, he's 5, hand-eye coordination at 5 is zip! Tennis at that age is a joke, T-ball is a stretch and soccer is a pack of kids running back and forth kicking the ball who-knows-where. Parents can coach and help out in most little kids sports. Just like a parent who has a horse can teach their kid to ride. The small group tennis lesson generates $50/lesson (5 kids at $10, why parents don't teach their kids escapes me..you don't need pro's at 5)...I imagine most of it's profit since no equipment dies, is used up or requires maintenance. I bet no group kid riding lesson generates $50 profit for a barn. At 5 kids should be playing, not having sports lessons.

"That is what I personally feel is missing in the horse industry. If kids aren't able to try it out at an affordable level then they will pick another sport and the equestrian industry will slowly wilt away."

Yeah...but, kids at this level are dilletantes...they flit from one thing to another, tennis, T-ball, soccer, swimming, piano etc...plus a little older they have nothing but organzied sports nowadays, play-dates etc...riding is just one more "badge" to be earned during their overscheduled little lives from too many misplaced-guilt-ridden parents. Plus, the kid doesn't care about "affordable", it's the parents who want the kid to do a cheaper sport, or the sport to be cheaper "for the children".

Most of the barn kids I grew up with did the barn...that was it (maybe music lessons at parental demand). We went to the barn and that's what we did. The boys and girls weren't playing X, Y. & Z sports, we rode and showed...we didn't have "day planners" as too many modern kids do. Our parents weren't our drivers for our most recent whim...we didn't have weekly b'day parties to attend necessitating more parental chauffeur duties.

Where I board now, the majority of the riders/owners took it up as adults (we "pony clubbers" are very rare...so what). There's nothing wrong with starting a sport late. Too many spoiled parents with the odd idea that just because their kid wants to ride, the world should make it inexpensive for them. Kids don't NEED to be entertained or to have every sport/clothes/video-game whim fulfilled.

[Noctis]

I think I love my BO/Boss and barn even more than ever. We teach beginners. Sure we have some more advanced students (mine, w/t/c jumping 3' courses), but the barn is geared towards teaching people "whole horsemanship". We have 7 schoolies, 2 who can do the higher level work, and we charge $35 hr (with a 60/40% split in my favor as the instructor) for lessons on those schoolies (1 hr lesson incl. tacking) We have to turn people away because it is so unheard of to have a beginner friendly barn with REASONABLE rates (darn i'm from MD/VA originally. wouldve LOVED lessons like this!) If they get more advanced than our horses, then they have all the skills they need to buy and maintain their own, which is a huge part of our program. I love the setup, wish there were more like it!

[relocatedTXjumpr]

The barn I started riding at, and rode at for almost 13 years before I left. Had a string of school horses. They had mayeb 5 when they started out, and that increased over the years...althouth the orginal 5 where still there when I left.

Most of these were actually trainers or owners old show horses. Some were horses they got cheap from the feed lot or outof a pasture somewhere. They ranged from beginner horses all the way to junior and amature horses. Then, there was usually a steady stream of horses that came in from other barns. Sell horses, that stayed for a month or so and were added to the lesson program. This helped the more experience riders ride different horses a lot.

And yes, we could show on the lesson horses. My first show was on a lovely old man, Sanddollar. I was 7. No way in the world would my parents buy a horse for me at that age. I havent even cantered yet. And while I was horse crazy, they didnt know I wouldnt grow out of it.

I showed for a LONG time on schoolies. Even after I owned my horse pony and horse, I still took "barn/lesson" horses to shows. Now, a lot of the local circuit shows were held at my barn, but on more than one occasion did I take a horse other than mine to an away show...and lots of other people did too...of all ages.

I'm not saying any of this was cheap for the barn...back them my full board, that included 3 lessons a week was $350. But they always had a full program, always.

The horses that went to shows got the next day or two off. If they had to be used in a lesson, that lesson was a lot of walking, longe line, no stirrups, no jumping, or a barn lesson.

My parents would have pulled me from the barn if the only way I could have advanced was buying me my own horse. No way. Riding all those different horses, even the slow schoolies, helped me learn to ride different kinds of horses, adapt to the way they went.

I think that helped me with a good foundation. And we NEVER had anyone else tack up our own horse, ever. We did the work.

[Just My Style]

Yeah...but, kids at this level are dilletantes...they flit from one thing to another, tennis, T-ball, soccer, swimming, piano etc...plus a little older they have nothing but organzied sports nowadays, play-dates etc...riding is just one more "badge" to be earned during their overscheduled little lives from too many misplaced-guilt-ridden parents. Plus, the kid doesn't care about "affordable", it's the parents who want the kid to do a cheaper sport, or the sport to be cheaper "for the children".

Trakehner- First of all, I started riding at 6. That was it. I loved it and haven't done any other sports- only riding for almost 30 years. I did not "flit" from one thing to another. Not every kid does. If I was not able to try riding at an affordable, introductory level, then I would be missing that from my life even today. My parents were inner city kids from Chicago and they had never known anyone who rode in their whole life. I came up with riding on my own and was fortunate enough to be allowed to give it a try. If my mother had it her way, I would have been a tap dancer.

And I KNOW the "guilt ridden" parent thing wasn't aimed at me. I don't know who you hang out with, but most of my friends are stay-at-home moms that spend a lot of time with their kids (myself included) and have no guilt to speak of. My kid (at the recommendation of his teachers and doctor) started up with tennis to improve his hand eye coordination. He is somewhat lacking in those areas and it was a good, fun activity to work on his motorskills.

At 5 kids should be playing, not having sports lessons.

Every 5 year old that I know does play- and they play A LOT, but it is very good for them to be in activities that make them pay attention and do specific tasks too. Of course, these activities are FUN. That is the key: having them learn AND making it fun. Clearly, you aren't a parent or you would understand that.


And I will stick by my initial statement: Kids (or beginner adults for that matter) will never learn if they love horses or not, if they aren't able to explore them on a lower, more basic level. If the industry does not make it more beginner friendly, then there will not be anymore new people in the industry to pay $50 an hour or $700 a month board.

How many subdivisions do you know that have been torn down to make a riding stable? Obviously, the industry is shrinking.