• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

Is this Deliberate

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    I've ridden tons of wicked-pissy horses. Heck, my own first horse was a witch supreme. (hence the reason I could afford her, LOL)

    I've had horses go bucking bronco on me, rearers, bolters, etc. Had more than you'd think take the option of laying down and/or rolling under saddle to get you off. Had some that had ground manners like Satan...made you wish you owned a dart gun. (my job as a much younger person was test riding the auction horses our barn bought)

    Horses can and do react that badly. Not all the time, but it's not all that rare either. Some depends on past handling, some are just born with craptastic personalities. And sometimes the past handling issues aren't abusive but too submissive. (plenty of horses turn into arseholes when allowed to get away with everything)

    Who knows with this horse? It's a short video, no way to tell the whole story. But in general from that short video...the horse is at fault there and not the rider. The ride was definitely lacking...but the equine reaction was WAY over the top. And pissy. That was definitely not a scared horse at that moment. Even if it was a bee sting...the horse aimed.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte

    Comment


    • #62
      I didn't see how to do a slow-motion ... so I suggest watch the video slowly using start-pause-start-pause over and over. Or, run it backwards slowly using the cursor.

      I am thinking seeing it instant by instant might influence how some people react to the horse's reaction. Otherwise I found the action is fast enough that I didn't really pick up on everything that was going on.

      It is not a good ride to the fence. The horse obviously does deliberately set up for and then pull a dirty stop, but to me it looks as if it is in response to a rider that isn't giving him the help and doesn't have the balance this horse can count on. The horse wants to get out of doing something it isn't feeling confident about. This rider was not skilled enough to handle it, and rider came apart as the dirty stop unfolded.

      Having read all the responses, I still think the horse is behaving as horses sometimes do. Unfortunately, obviously. This horse is doing what every horse does every second of every day - reacting to what it perceives is going on around it, possibly with a dollop of past experience in the mix but no way to know about that.

      The more horse adrenaline goes up, the less the horse is running on anything but reactive instinct. (Sometimes people are kind of like that, too.) I just don't think they have the intellect to form the evil thoughts that people sometimes assign to them. I think what's going on is far more simple and basic than that. I think people over-interpret the pinned ears and unpleasant expression of a horse ... but it doesn't mean what that sort of expression means in humans. Not enough behind it.

      The rider didn't necessarily do anything horribly wrong, other than not give a very good ride to a horse that is beyond his skill level. It's possible the rider did not realize what this horse might do under the pressure of this show ring. But what is learned is that horse & rider are not a good match. Imo.

      I hope the rider was not injured and went on to better experiences on safer horses.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
        It is not a good ride to the fence. The horse obviously does deliberately set up for and then pull a dirty stop, but to me it looks as if it is in response to a rider that isn't giving him the help and doesn't have the balance this horse can count on. The horse wants to get out of doing something it isn't feeling confident about. This rider was not skilled enough to handle it, and rider came apart as the dirty stop unfolded.
        Well, this is one thing you got right.

        Having read all the responses, I still think the horse is behaving as horses sometimes do. Unfortunately, obviously. This horse is doing what every horse does every second of every day - reacting to what it perceives is going on around it, possibly with a dollop of past experience in the mix but no way to know about that.
        Bullspit. This horse stopped, propped, bucked and spun until it was sure the rider was off, then backed up to said fallen rider and tried to kick his head in. And after it connected, it kept kicking. Sorry, but you're dead assed wrong - that is not "what every horse does every second of every day".

        The more horse adrenaline goes up, the less the horse is running on anything but reactive instinct. (Sometimes people are kind of like that, too.) I just don't think they have the intellect to form the evil thoughts that people sometimes assign to them.
        Under normal circumstances, I would agree with you. But this is called "intent". Hard as this may be for you to believe (perhaps because you've never encountered it), there are vindictive horses out there who will not only escalate their behaviour just enough to get a desired result (in this case, dumping the rider), but then going back after the rider to take revenge for some perceived wrong. Believe me, it does happen, and you're seeing evidence of it right here. If you're too blind to recognize it, I'm sorry for you.

        I think what's going on is far more simple and basic than that. I think people over-interpret the pinned ears and unpleasant expression of a horse ... but it doesn't mean what that sort of expression means in humans. Not enough behind it.
        Again, bullspit.

        The rider didn't necessarily do anything horribly wrong, other than not give a very good ride to a horse that is beyond his skill level.
        No, it's a POS horse. ANY horse that behaves this way isn't worth riding.

        It's possible the rider did not realize what this horse might do under the pressure of this show ring. But what is learned is that horse & rider are not a good match. Imo.
        No. What is "learned" is that the horse is a homicidal piece of $h!t that should never have another rider try to jump it. Or, anything else, come to think of it. Who knows what other buttons wittle horsie might have that get inadvertantly pushed by an unknowing rider and p!$$ him off enough to try to dump another rider and kick his/her head in.

        I hope the rider was not injured and went on to better experiences on safer horses.
        I'm thinking your hopes are in vain.
        In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
        A life lived by example, done too soon.
        www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

        Comment


        • #64
          I equate this horse to a dog who has mauled a child (and not in self-defense) -- it really doesn't matter why the animal did it, but the animal has proved itself too dangerous and should be put down.
          Jigga:
          Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

          Comment


          • #65
            Geeze, ESG, seems to me like you're reading an awful lot into a 10-second video clip....

            I can't think of the name of the competition down there in South America, but we've had videos posted from it before - remember the sort of celebrity thing where they basically put the clueless up on show jumpers and make them jump around? This could, for all we know, be from one of those. Assuming arguendo that the horse DID do this intentionally (of which I'm far from convinced, other than in the sense of "there's an object behind me and it's moving and I'm scared so I better kick it and if it moves again I better kick it again") - how do you know this is not one of THOSE horses, simply p*ssed off at having too many bad rides in a row?
            "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

            Comment


            • #66
              I have never had a horse pull this craziness on me, but if I ever do, that horse will be sold. I have owned some pretty hot/sensitive horses, and as "asshole" as they could get, none of them ever aimed a kick like that horse did to his rider in the video.

              Like MB, I was the rider to try the auction horses at one of the barns I rode at. I have been bucked and reared off, but NEVER has a horse done anything like that to me.
              Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people.
              W. C. Fields

              Comment


              • #67
                WA, what you and OverandOnward don't seem to recognize is that one instance of behaviour like this is more than enough! It doesn't matter why the horse behaved as he did; it only matters that he did. And that behaviour is too dangerous to be allowed to continue.

                You might think it's enough to say, "Oh, just don't jump the horse any more". Well, what happens when horsie gets pissed off at having to do flatwork, and dumps his rider and has a kick fest at rider's skull? Or if someone handling horsie on the ground manages to piss him off to the point that he wants to pound their skulls to pulp (and they probably won't be wearing a helmet then)? The trouble with behaviour like this is that once exhibited, you know the horse is capable of it, and that makes horse untrustworthy (dangerous?) as far as I'm concerned. Far, far too many nice horses out there to "keep trying" with one that's already demonstrated that he'll happily dent your skull if you give him a bad ride.
                In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                A life lived by example, done too soon.
                www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                Comment


                • #68
                  Wowsers. This one is being way over analyzed!

                  I see a horse kicking out either in surprise reaction to fallen rider (maybe never had someone come off that way before) or something we cannot see causing irritation.

                  No malice, no evil intent, not even sufficient evidence to conclude that horse was kicking at rider specifically.

                  One of those 'stuff happens' things IMO. But by all means, carry on if you wish...

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I didn't see raw aggression in the clip... ears weren't obviously pinned.

                    I didn't see raw fear in the clip... no google eyes flared nostrils panicky getting out of dodge behavior.

                    No, what I saw was either a sour horse, or a defensive horse. Would need more than this clip to tell which.

                    The rider is very lucky if he didn't end up paralyzed or brain damaged.

                    I always said I'd never try bull riding... because I'd never ride something that size that comes after you, if you fall off.
                    Still feel the same way. I wouldn't have this horse in my barn period. Not worth the risk.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by ESG View Post
                      WA, what you and OverandOnward don't seem to recognize is that one instance of behaviour like this is more than enough! It doesn't matter why the horse behaved as he did; it only matters that he did. And that behaviour is too dangerous to be allowed to continue.
                      *sigh*

                      Permit me, if you will, to tell one last HRH Avery story.

                      Now the RUMOR about HRH Avery is that one of the Horse Killerz At Large took that horse back to the barn at a show and started to beat the snot out of him in the stall in a sheer fit of bad temper - and that HRH headbutted the guy up against the wall so hard he fell over, and HRH allegedly started kicking - HARD - and broke a few ribs for the sumbitch.

                      He replicated that behavior with me when I first got him home from the killpen - only he did NOT break ribs: he very carefully aimed right above my head, to my side, etc. He was just letting me know he (thought he) had the upper hand and that he was BY ALL MEANS game for a fight if I chose to bring one TO HIM.

                      I did not so choose.

                      Neither did I get all hysterical and shriek "OMG OMG HORSIE'S TRYING TO KIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLL MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE."

                      I looked at him and said very calmly and quietly, "Look, Boss: YOU know you're not going to do it. *I* know you're not going to do it. I'm going to get up now, and we're going to get on with grooming, and I'll get a softer brush."

                      I got a softer brush. Problem solved.

                      HRH had plenty of other tricks in his arsenal, but they went away over time as he gradually realized he was being treated fairly.

                      He ended up a DEEPLY DANGEROUS HORSE OMG OMG OMG, as you can see.

                      I'll always give the benefit of the doubt to the horse in a questionable situation.
                      "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I appreciate the HRH Avery story. I'm glad he ended up in your capable hands.

                        A horse who used deadly force (they know what kicking and biting are for) to make an impression on me-- kicking skillfully around me like a knife thrower?

                        Check, please. I just don't want to get hurt badly or die trying to make any kind of point to a horse or to myself.

                        I'm with ESG in the hard line. But I'd add that even for the skilled and dedicated, its important to call it as you see it. Truly. We have selectively bred these animals to take crap and do a job. The one who takes an opportunity to openly retaliate is an outlier. Lie to yourself about what you see at your own peril.

                        Knowing this kind of horse well enough to safely deal with him or rehabilitate him begins with calling a spade a spade and not finding "kinder, gentler" interpretations of that first aimed kick and (perhaps) the repeated ones. You can be kindler and gentler in your way of restoring the horse's faith in humanity. But it's dangerous for you and, at bottom, not listening to the horse if you don't hear and respect his rage in that moment.

                        I'm also surprised by the number of stories in this thread about school horses who hurt their downed riders. Dude! This the one time and place that you can't have that kind of horse in the equation.
                        The armchair saddler
                        Politically Pro-Cat

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I was expecting much worse. I don't think that was deliberate at all. He didn't know where the rider was, all he knew was that there was something down there that hadn't been there two seconds before.
                          It's a uterus, not a clown car. - Sayyedati

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            We had a horse for a short time that at first was great, very cute little morgan/Tb cross gelding. Unfortunately he had been coddled by his former owner and all he had to do to get out of work with her was throw a fit 1/4 mile from her house and she'd dismount and walk him home. After the first 3 weeks he started pulling that same stuff with us and at one point bucked my husband off on a trail ride. On the ground this horse was the sweetest guy, would follow you around and be your best pal, just don't ride him.
                            One day I took him out to do a little work with him and tied him to the trailer to tack up and he threw an absolute tantrum! He threw himself around on the end of the lead, hauling backwards, bucking, rearing, everything. Then he sees me standing back watching him turn into the spawn of satan and waited for his head to start spinning around. This horse, turns his rump towards me and cocks a hind foot waiting for me to come into striking distance checking over his shoulder to see where I was, the little shit.
                            With the help of a lunge whip, I got him tacked and got on and he's dancing around in place and looking like he's going to go straight up any second. I get off and put him on the lunge line and he goes around and then pulls away and kicks out. I stepped aside in time to feel the breeze from his hoof where my head was a second earlier. He would have killed me if he had connected. I untacked him, put him away and told DH he had 3 choices with this horse - put him down, sell him, or take him to the auction but he was leaving the property before he seriously hurt someone. The livestock auction was the next day and we took him down there and left him. He probably went to France on a hook, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone bought him out of the kill pen because he was so darn cute and handsome, but a killer all the same.

                            Wow this turned into a book.
                            Yogurt - If you're so cultured, how come I never see you at the opera? Steven Colbert

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              That horse is an A-Hole!! I would get rid of it, this sport is too expensive to put up with that BS, there are millions of better horses out there!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by saultgirl View Post
                                I equate this horse to a dog who has mauled a child (and not in self-defense) -- it really doesn't matter why the animal did it, but the animal has proved itself too dangerous and should be put down.
                                Originally posted by ESG View Post
                                WA, what you and OverandOnward don't seem to recognize is that one instance of behaviour like this is more than enough! It doesn't matter why the horse behaved as he did; it only matters that he did. And that behaviour is too dangerous to be allowed to continue.
                                I agree. It's just not worth it. Once a horse (or dog for that matter) has done something like this there is no guarantee he won't do it again, and the liability is just way to great. It's very similar to dogs that bite-even if you sell the horse as " he kicks deliberately at the rider if they fall off" that does not excuse one from liability (similarly to selling/rehoming a dog that has shown aggression and/or bit someone)

                                Keep him as a pasture pet? maybe. But I'd euthanize him before I let him leave my farm.
                                Michael: Seems the people who burned me want me for a job.
                                Sam: A job? Does it pay?
                                Michael: Nah, it's more of a "we'll kill you if you don't do it" type of thing.
                                Sam: Oh. I've never liked those.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #76
                                  To be clear, i don't think any animal can reason with human intellect. However they can deduce that this action can result in this reaction. Said horse learned that dumping rider and kicking rider means ride over.

                                  I don't think that the horse understands "evil". He just learned an effective way to get what he wants. I do think the animal's temperament plays a large role in the likelihood that a bad habit like this might develop. Using the dog analogy, some dogs are going to bite with little or no provocation while others take some pretty harsh abuse while maintaining a docile attitude.

                                  I think the queston becomes do you as a rider want to take that level of risk with a horse like this and do you have the skills as a rider to make a horse like this safe?
                                  She who cares the least wins.....

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by OldNag View Post
                                    To be clear, i don't think any animal can reason with human intellect. However they can deduce that this action can result in this reaction. Said horse learned that dumping rider and kicking rider means ride over.

                                    I don't think that the horse understands "evil". He just learned an effective way to get what he wants. I do think the animal's temperament plays a large role in the likelihood that a bad habit like this might develop. Using the dog analogy, some dogs are going to bite with little or no provocation while others take some pretty harsh abuse while maintaining a docile attitude.

                                    I think the queston becomes do you as a rider want to take that level of risk with a horse like this and do you have the skills as a rider to make a horse like this safe?
                                    My answer to your question is, if a horse shows us who they are and that is dangerous in some situations, we better believe them.
                                    Whatever sets them off that makes them dangerous may never again happen, but do we want to take that chance?

                                    Even after you retrain such a horse to be as good a citizen as you can, if what they do is dangerous, do you want to take the chances that, in the right situation, that will happen again and that horse, others or you may get hurt?
                                    I guess that depends on the horse and the rider and how sure that person is that no others will be hurt.

                                    I have seen people take those chances, a friend and neighbor had such a horse, that something, he never could figure what, would set him off and he would run off bucking blindly.
                                    He bought him as a long three year old from a cowboy with a broken arm, courtesy of that wonderful horse, he really was awesome looking and to ride.

                                    Whatever happened, "only" happened every few years, but every time my friend ended up in ICU for several days with severe injuries.
                                    He had the horse for a decade and the horse pulled that three times with him.
                                    He gave him to his young cousin, that used him some and finally mostly retired him and used him rarely.

                                    Why would anyone take those chances, when they know if and when the chips are down, that horse is dangerous?
                                    I am not sure any horse is worth taking those chances.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Well, I for one think that horse knew exactly what it was doing because it backed up into the kicks. A fearful horse will push hard back at pressure, like running through the bit, which was happening right before he came off. The sunfishing, the ducking, pushing back at pressure. But once he hit the ground, all pressure was off that horse and a normal reaction would have been to flee. That horse stopped, positioned himself and aimed several kicks at the rider while moving backward. That was intentional in my book.
                                      ...don't sh** where you eat...

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by winfieldfarm View Post
                                        Well, I for one think that horse knew exactly what it was doing because it backed up into the kicks. A fearful horse will push hard back at pressure, like running through the bit, which was happening right before he came off. The sunfishing, the ducking, pushing back at pressure. But once he hit the ground, all pressure was off that horse and a normal reaction would have been to flee. That horse stopped, positioned himself and aimed several kicks at the rider while moving backward. That was intentional in my book.
                                        Yes, partially so, we can say that is what it looks to us, but also, the horse was caught a bit there by the standard and planters and stuff around there, so it was not quite as free to flee as if it would have happened in the open.

                                        Still, most horses just would not have kicked at all in that situation, or maybe just once out of surprise.
                                        That kind of repeated kicking is definitely a dangerous quirk that horse was showing there and it possibly could be seen as with clear intent to hit the rider, which he did.

                                        Even in rodeos, their bucking horses are fairly safe, that kind of aggression is not acceptable.
                                        If one attacks the rider after bucking it off, they are not used any more.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          at .04 he was facing open area away from the jump and could have moved forward.

                                          he didn't.

                                          at .05 he's facing away from the jump in the other direction and could have moved forward.

                                          he didn't.

                                          deliberate or not, it's dangerous and as others have said, he'd be gone if he were mine.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X