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Is this Deliberate

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  • #41
    I think it is a horse that is reactive in most situations and it simply lashed out. I have heard of people falling off their horse but getting a foot caught in a stirrup and the horse kicks them to death.

    The surprise of someone banging around on or against them and then falling next to them can scare some horses. I have had a couple of horses that kicked when they were surprised by anything. I didn't keep them. I think that type of reaction to stress or fear is dangerous.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by Zevida View Post
      This is exactly what I would assume in this situation, without knowing anything about the history of the horse. Spooks and rider falls can unnerve a lot of horses. Horses are not used to seeing people falling onto the ground and then laying there and it is likely he was frightened in the moment.

      Now, if this was a pattern of behavior and not the first time it happened, that's a different story.
      I agree that some horses-- especially the young 'ns-- are genuinely scared by the feel of a rider coming off. "Will I be pulled over, too?" they ask.

      I'm not worried about the horse stopping and then "helping" the already unbalanced rider to complete the fall. That would be "within normal limits" horse behavior.

      The magnanimous horse would have tried to stay underneath his rider.
      The "nice" horse would have trotted or perhaps slowly cantered to the in-gate.
      The fresh, green or older, in-need-of-a-tad-larger-work-ethic would have done some bucking on the way out.

      I am worried about the way this horse stayed to finish the job.

      I wouldn't need to see a pattern of behavior form this horse to infer that he meant to harm his rider in that "turn and kick at him" moment. I wouldn't give the horse more than one opportunity to behave this way. I can't meet that level of anger from a 1,000 animal and hope to fix it without risking my life.

      That horse would have to go. If I couldn't figure out a way to create a program that made him happier and a sure-fire recipe that someone else could use to keep him happy and them safe, I euthanize him.
      The armchair saddler
      Politically Pro-Cat

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      • #43
        I agree with MVP - some reaction is acceptable, but look at the jumps, this horse isn't a freshly started 3yr old who has hardly been handled and is dumping a rider for the first time, this is a horse with some training. Training is also us teaching a horse to mitigate or override the 'prey instinct' that many of you are using for the horse's defense. This horse, at this point in its life, is not permitted to act this way IMHO, because it is dangerous. Flat out deadly behaviour that I could potentially excuse from a young, very green and unhandled horse, not one showing at this level.

        There is a $0.33 solution to this problem.

        IMHO, there are too many nice horses in the world to waste your time, or endanger your life, with the SOBs.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by oliverreed View Post
          It might be interesting if somebody who knows Portuguese could translate the comments. Might shed some light, might not.
          I tried two different translation sites for some of the comments, doesn't help much!

          The most popular comment:

          Horse revolted by owner

          Frankly, at the hour that he dropped the first kick ... in the position that was .... the kick was pro anything, not to achieve. It is really he was aggressive ... at the time that he will come..he would go on top ... sure ...

          An occasion, last year, Bruna was injured in SHC, where he fell from his horse and the helmet amenisou the accident. On that occasion, he had people who denied until the use of cell phones, claiming that he didn't know to whom link, others were only looking and laughing. AND if they say "AMIGOS ... "

          AND still have mta everyone that trains without helmet ... These things can happen with any, at any time ...


          As a friend of mine and he remembered ... the todos ... aggressive..shut the equestrian 2 x.. It is not comparable to anything with this horse .... who remembers him ... you know


          He was born again this weekend. ... for those who'D la gave the impression that it was not intentional, but finally, each one with its opinion!

          At any rate, the horse was more than likely not born with that behavior, if it was indeed deliberate. For all we know, the rider may be a complete A$$hat to that horse and the horse had enough.

          Many of you are so quick to condemn the horse without even wanting to understand what the true cause was.
          Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
          http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
          http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg

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          • #45
            When I worked as a groom there was a lady at the barn that had three horses and she showed in the adults. She really annoyed her horses, she wasn't the best rider, she meant well but she just couldn't leave them alone. Two of her horses took it in stride and just carried on, the third one, however, would pull faces as soon as he saw her. And if she fell off she had to get out of the way quick because he would turn and try to double barrel kick her! Having seen that, I'm more inclinded to think the horse in the video was deliberate! But that is JMO.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by jenm View Post
              At any rate, the horse was more than likely not born with that behavior, if it was indeed deliberate. For all we know, the rider may be a complete A$$hat to that horse and the horse had enough.

              Many of you are so quick to condemn the horse without even wanting to understand what the true cause was.
              The horse probably wasn't born this way, true. Something made him the way he is; maybe this rider was excessively harsh after refusals, or maybe this rider bought him cheap because of existing issues and thought he could reschool him. We don't know.

              We do see a horse acting maliciously and dangerously. That horse wouldn't be trusted in my barn. If someone else wants to take the risk, go ahead. I wouldn't. I need my brain to pay for the horses I enjoy (who don't have a history of kicking people in the head).

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by mvp View Post
                That's what I saw. It was intentional on the horse's part.

                I also infer:

                The horse had a deep and long and BAD history with his rider or others. He stopped dirty, knew he'd be punished severely for it, and took an opportunity to "say NO."

                I don't think the horse got to this stage of aggression on his own-- without human help. I also think he was being aggressive and not surprised. The horse could have run in any direction and did not. He stayed, aimed and then left the scene.

                By the grace of God go I. I have known a few people who have had horses "snap" and officially come after them. I have pissed off horses. I have been unfair to horses. I'm grateful that I never got a horse to do this to me.
                MVP I think you hit the nail on the head! This looked very much to me like the horse knew a reprimand was coming and he wasn't having any of it.
                http://fromdressagehorsetocowpony.blogspot.com/

                "I am still under the impression that there is nothing alive quite so beautiful as a thoroughbred horse." -- John Galsworthy

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                • #48
                  I dont know what happened here. I really cant even take a guess. But, what I do see in this short clip horrifies me, for both the man and the horse.

                  my grandpa use to say.... "pay attention to what you do, all horses have a internal score card"

                  I pray this horse gets a peaceful passing, retraining, or a new job, like pulling plow all day (on a really long rein, lol)... that would probably take the bee out of his bonnet. And lessons are learned (with no debilitating injuries) by the humans involved.

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Jumpin_Horses View Post
                    my grandpa use to say.... "pay attention to what you do, all horses have a internal score card"
                    This is great!!
                    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
                    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
                    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by europa View Post
                      That was not a spook....that was a dirty quit and that horse knew he was on the ground. That horse would not come back to the barn with me that is for sure. AWFUL.

                      Life is too short for that crap. I don't know their history but it is obvious that horse isn't going to the mat at all for the rider.

                      Does anyone know if the man was ok. I pray he was!!
                      ^^This.^^ That horse was deliberate. It kicked out behind, and then kept kicking until it connected. And then it kicked a few more times before it turned and ran off.

                      Bullet between the eyes. Before it does it again and manages to kill someone. If that kick had landed below the rider's helmet at the base of the skull, no one would be defending the horse, I'll wager.

                      ETA: Jumpin_Horses, your grandfather was a very wise man. And I'll bet he was a hell of a horseman.
                      In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                      A life lived by example, done too soon.
                      www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

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                      • #51
                        Originally posted by ESG View Post

                        ETA: Jumpin_Horses, your grandfather was a very wise man. And I'll bet he was a hell of a horseman.
                        there is a reason he said that to me....

                        I will never forget as long as I live... if I learn 1/2 of what my grandpa knew about horses in my life, I will consider myself lucky.... anyway, this quote is what first popped into my head when I saw the video

                        I think (I cant say for sure though) that somewhere, sometime, someone committed some crime to this animal, or he and/or the rider just wasnt trained properly to this level... and the horse chose that moment to even some score..... not condoning it, but, ive seen it before.....

                        but, I wasnt there, and I dont know the parties involved, so really thats just speculation on my part.

                        ETA - for all we know a tack or something was sticking out of the saddle, or the horse could have a broken tooth, or a bee in his sheath (seen that before)....... etc......... ya know..... I wish there was a follow up...
                        Last edited by Jumpin_Horses; Feb. 17, 2012, 05:02 PM.

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                        • #52
                          well that was frightening.

                          seemed deliberate to me as well. Horse had other options and chose not to take them.

                          you know, I could absolutley see this horse being treated harshly and finally his cup runneth over, and that said...I'd be doing something different with him effective immediately. Such as the plowing suggested by another.

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                          • #53
                            I dunno, guys and gals. I saw a horse who looked pissed beforehand and ducked out, then instead of beating a retreat forward or backward, stayed there to do some major kicking. I could see if the horse kicked once, even twice, but how many did he do?? Then to connect, he kicked after that, right? (I have to look again)

                            This is one case, I'm totally on board with wearing a helmet.

                            *Just noticed there are two more pages of replies. Things could change between this post and by the time I read the last of the posts*
                            GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

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                            • #54
                              Originally posted by MistyBlue View Post
                              I certainly would not want the average ho
                              Me neither, I like the above-average... snicker.

                              Looks fairly deliberate to me, and I don't like animorph....uh, however you spell it. I'm too tired and sickie to look it up. Very ugly video, horse seems pretty determined to get done what he set his mind too. That was ugly kicking, not scared. Scared is an "eek! EEK! I'm outta here!!" bolting, not sticking around kicking out several times before loping off.
                              COTH's official mini-donk enabler

                              "I am all for reaching out, but in some situations it needs to be done with a rolled up news paper." Alagirl

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                              • #55
                                That is a brutal video!

                                I trained a mare that was nasty like that. She had a rotten attitude. She bullied her paddock mates mercilessly and started kicking at people who came into the paddock to get the other horses. Like, back up and start kicking like the horse in the video to try to get people away from her herd.

                                A student fell off her in a lesson and was lying against the wall a little dazed. Wasn't horse's fault, just one of an unbalanced rider fall. The mare stopped cantering and double-barrelled kicked. Her hooves smashed into the wall inches away from the rider's face. She had no 'reason' to do it. It was a clean fall, no hanging on or reins flailing. People had fallen off mare before. She wasn't panicked. She STOPPED cantering to kick out behind and had to move her butt to get close to the rider. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it.

                                Makes me appreciate my horse's effort at not stepping on me when I fell off, never mind kicking at me, a lot more.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by TheJenners View Post
                                  Me neither, I like the above-average... snicker.

                                  Looks fairly deliberate to me, and I don't like animorph....uh, however you spell it. I'm too tired and sickie to look it up. Very ugly video, horse seems pretty determined to get done what he set his mind too. That was ugly kicking, not scared. Scared is an "eek! EEK! I'm outta here!!" bolting, not sticking around kicking out several times before loping off.
                                  Thank you for referencing the average ho comment, because I forgot to

                                  I'm with TheJenners, mvp, ESG, goneriding, whoever else said that looked deliberate. I said it in the other community, that horse is saying "eff you, eff you, eff you, eff you, eff you and by the way, eff you, I'm out" with those kicks and then the exit stage right. I can't comment on the riding, or the relationship between horse and rider because the 3 and a half seconds leading up to the fall/kicks don't really give anyone much to go on. But the horse seems rank. I wouldn't want him in my barn.

                                  ETA: I decided to message the woman who posted it on fb, to see if she had any insight or info as to the horse or rider. I'll let you guys know if I hear anything back.
                                  Last edited by ohrebecca; Feb. 17, 2012, 07:07 PM. Reason: add
                                  The Little Red Mare: French Curve

                                  and my non-horse blog: oh, rebecca!

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                                  • #57
                                    It does look deliberate to me.

                                    I've seen a horse startled into kicking: my own mare, when the grooming box that was right behind her (she was grazing) snapped shut in a gust of wind. She jumped and kicked it (hit it square, too) and went back to grazing.

                                    I've seen a school horse dump his rider, then back up and kick him, which shattered the guy's elbow. This horse was well known for it and the buzz at the barn was, if he ever dumps you, crawl under the fence away from him ASAP.

                                    The horse in the video reminds me of the horse in my second example. Definitely aimed. And the sound it made! Ack. I hope the rider is ok....
                                    Ottbs - The finish line is only the beginning!

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Another one with Amwrider.

                                      I wouldn't euthanize the horse myself, but then again, this is the kind of project I enjoy figuring out. People who have been on this forum long enough to remember the late HRH Avery may recall he actually was like this when I first got him. Turned out to be my horse of a lifetime. It's all in the training....
                                      "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

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                                      • #59
                                        LOL...woops, hadn't realized the post posted before I finished typing.

                                        Although it still kinda makes sense...most people probably do prefer the above average ho.

                                        IIRC the rest of the sentence was going to be that I wouldn't want the average horse to react like *that* to a fall. Especially a fall the horse in that video choreographed.
                                        You jump in the saddle,
                                        Hold onto the bridle!
                                        Jump in the line!
                                        ...Belefonte

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by MistyBlue View Post
                                          LOL...woops, hadn't realized the post posted before I finished typing.

                                          Although it still kinda makes sense...most people probably do prefer the above average ho.

                                          IIRC the rest of the sentence was going to be that I wouldn't want the average horse to react like *that* to a fall. Especially a fall the horse in that video choreographed.
                                          we're just teasing you

                                          As far as I can recall, I've never fallen off and had that kind of reaction from a horse. It seems a bit extreme!
                                          The Little Red Mare: French Curve

                                          and my non-horse blog: oh, rebecca!

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