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Is this Deliberate

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  • #21
    The horse is kicking at the stirrups, not the rider.

    The stirrups are flailing and banging his sides. I am not sure the horse realizes where the rider is, he's too upset.

    Pause it at .01 or .02 and you see the start of the kicking problem - the rider's leg coming loose and bouncing up the horse's sides - then the stirrups banging at .03 and forward. You can see what really happened by start-stop-start-stop the video, all the way through. Or by using the cursor to run the video backwards. The problem is the rider, not the horse.

    Kicking horse doesn't know what is going on, just that it's banging him and it's upsetting.

    As for the stop itself, I think that is a separate problem. This horse does not trust his rider or his rider's balance. And he's learned to prop and drop a shoulder to protect himself. Which is separate from what started the kicking. That's my opinion.

    On the other hand - did the rider deserve what he got? Since the OP question was if the horse was doing it deliberately to punish the rider (no.) For jumping so clearly above his level, and trying to make the horse make up for his lack of skill - probably! I hope he wasn't hurt. Another reason to wear a helmet.

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    • #22
      I hope the rider is okay, helmet or not he probably has some neck damage at least.

      The hospital bills would be more than the horse is worth - Alpo the mean tricky horse and make the world a better place.
      3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 10582097494459230781640628620899862803482534211706 79821480865132823066470938446095505822317253594081 284811174502841027019385.....

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      • #23
        That first kick looked like it hit his neck. So even if he didn't have a helmet on, I think the outcome would have been the same.

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        • #24
          Wow - the rider looked like he may have been really hurt - hard to tell if the hoof hit just his helmet or if it got the base of it and his neck. Even if it just hit the helmet, that was a sharp blow! I would agree that the horse was probably not deliberately trying to hurt the rider in a personal way - was just a reaction to the rider falling, the stirrups banging and to him already being spooked.

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          • #25
            Not a horse I would want in my barn.

            I am not convinced this horse wasn’t trying to kick him, the man falls off over the shoulder and the horse wheels around and starts kicking his way.

            Even if it’s the stirrups, ulcers, bad riding on and on….. This horse is WAY too reactive, not protective of its rider, and just, I won’t own a “kicker”.

            Edited to add... just watched a few more times. Stirrups do not start really bouncing until the horse starts kicking like crazy. Horse basically circles the guy kicking at them him the whole time, horse is clearly aiming at the guy, not just randomly kicking the air...

            Yep, NOT a horse I would keep around. I don't care how it ended up like this, its reaction is not cool. Kinda like I won't keep an agressive dog that had already proven to bite. Some people will, just not the kind of animal I am going to own.
            APPSOLUTE CHOCKLATE - Photo by Kathy Colman

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            • #26
              Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post

              On the other hand - did the rider deserve what he got? Since the OP question was if the horse was doing it deliberately to punish the rider (no.) For jumping so clearly above his level, and trying to make the horse make up for his lack of skill - probably! I hope he wasn't hurt. Another reason to wear a helmet.
              That seems a bit far-reaching, you must have great skill at determining a rider's ability from .5 seconds of video prior to the prop-duck-runout.

              Frankly, I don't think any rider "deserves" a potentially fatal blow to the head, unless maybe they've been torturing and abusing the horse behind the barns.

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              • #27
                That was a stop, not a spook. Rider was jumping way before the horse and/or the jump and that horse performed a classic stop-n-dump. Not even close to a spook. Look at the body language of the horse.

                Now once the rider ended up on the ground...not sure if the primary reaction was surprise at the sudden appearance of the rider on the ground, but those were aimed kicks. All of them. Again, watch the body language of the horse.

                Poor riding in this instance...but severe overreaction on the horse's part. I certainly would not want the average ho
                You jump in the saddle,
                Hold onto the bridle!
                Jump in the line!
                ...Belefonte

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by Long Spot View Post
                  Holy mother of pearl.

                  Another in agreement with Amwrider's assessment.
                  +1
                  The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                  Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                  Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                  The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
                    The horse is kicking at the stirrups, not the rider.

                    The stirrups are flailing and banging his sides. I am not sure the horse realizes where the rider is, he's too upset.
                    ...

                    Kicking horse doesn't know what is going on, just that it's banging him and it's upsetting.
                    ...
                    On the other hand - did the rider deserve what he got? Since the OP question was if the horse was doing it deliberately to punish the rider (no.) For jumping so clearly above his level, and trying to make the horse make up for his lack of skill - probably! I hope he wasn't hurt. Another reason to wear a helmet.
                    I have to disagree. I've seen youngsters kicking at loose stirrups; they kick at their belly or out to the side, not back. If my youngsters kicked at me like that just because they were bumped by a stirrup, you can bet that it wouldn't go unpunished. Sensitive is ok, but to that extreme is a dangerous horse.

                    I think that was one sour horse... dirty stop and nasty kicking. He'd be gone so fast his head would spin.

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                    • #30
                      Methinks you better watch that again..that crazy sow continued to spin to deliberately get the guy off. At that point he is facing the guy so the horse KNOWS he is on the ground. He thin spins to aim and kick repeatedly before running away.

                      4 words....BULLET TO THE BRAINPAN
                      The rider casts his heart over the fence,
                      the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

                      –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
                        The horse is kicking at the stirrups, not the rider.

                        On the other hand - did the rider deserve what he got? Since the OP question was if the horse was doing it deliberately to punish the rider (no.) For jumping so clearly above his level, and trying to make the horse make up for his lack of skill - probably!
                        OverandOnward, please tell me I read this wrong and you did not actually mean to say that the rider deserved to get kicked in the head repeatedly? Wow.

                        That was a dirty stop and those were clearly well aimed kicks at the rider, not the stirrups. Regardless of whether or not the horse thought it was a predator, I'd certainly call it deliberate. And I'd certainly call that horse dangerous.

                        Again, I hope the rider is OK.
                        Dreaming in Color

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                        • #32
                          Originally posted by europa View Post
                          Methinks you better watch that again..that crazy sow continued to spin to deliberately get the guy off. At that point he is facing the guy so the horse KNOWS he is on the ground. He thin spins to aim and kick repeatedly before running away.

                          4 words....BULLET TO THE BRAINPAN
                          We get your opinion that something bad should become of the horse. You've stated it three times now. That'll do.
                          "Aye God, Woodrow..."

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by europa View Post
                            That was not a spook....that was a dirty quit and that horse knew he was on the ground. That horse would not come back to the barn with me that is for sure. AWFUL.

                            Life is too short for that crap. I don't know their history but it is obvious that horse isn't going to the mat at all for the rider.

                            Does anyone know if the man was ok. I pray he was!!
                            That's what I saw. It was intentional on the horse's part.

                            I also infer:

                            The horse had a deep and long and BAD history with his rider or others. He stopped dirty, knew he'd be punished severely for it, and took an opportunity to "say NO."

                            I don't think the horse got to this stage of aggression on his own-- without human help. I also think he was being aggressive and not surprised. The horse could have run in any direction and did not. He stayed, aimed and then left the scene.

                            By the grace of God go I. I have known a few people who have had horses "snap" and officially come after them. I have pissed off horses. I have been unfair to horses. I'm grateful that I never got a horse to do this to me.
                            The armchair saddler
                            Politically Pro-Cat

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Appsolute View Post
                              Not a horse I would want in my barn.

                              I am not convinced this horse wasn’t trying to kick him, the man falls off over the shoulder and the horse wheels around and starts kicking his way.

                              Even if it’s the stirrups, ulcers, bad riding on and on….. This horse is WAY too reactive, not protective of its rider, and just, I won’t own a “kicker”.

                              Edited to add... just watched a few more times. Stirrups do not start really bouncing until the horse starts kicking like crazy. Horse basically circles the guy kicking at them him the whole time, horse is clearly aiming at the guy, not just randomly kicking the air...

                              Yep, NOT a horse I would keep around. I don't care how it ended up like this, its reaction is not cool. Kinda like I won't keep an agressive dog that had already proven to bite. Some people will, just not the kind of animal I am going to own.
                              COMPLETELY agree. I can forgive a lot, but not that sort of nastiness from a horse. No WAY. I fell off my Appy last October at a Hunter Pace. He was 7 yrs old, I've had him since he was 1 yr old and never come off him before. He legitimately spooked (rare for him) while we were cantering and went sideways, I got unseated and was sort of hanging off the side of him for 6-7 strides. Yeah it scared the crap out of him but all he did was go faster. A natural honest reaction to GET AWAY from the scary situation. No kicking though. Jeez. The horse in that video is just plain dirty.

                              Another horse I knew dumped his owner one day and stepped on her, broke her pelvis. Everyone chalked it up to bad luck. A while later he dumped his rider (different rider) again and stepped on her leg. A lot of people said it was bad luck again, but when I was offered to try out the horse as he was for sale, I bowed out as gracefully as I could. No thanks, not interested in owning something that makes it a habit to stomp on people after they've come off due to him bucking/spooking/stopping dirty.
                              2016 RRP Makeover Competitor www.EnviousBid.com

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                              • #35
                                I think I agree with MVP. I would think a dirty stopper/ducker knows what's coming next and this horse is about ready for a change of career. You see it occasionally in barrel horses who've been punished for screwing up a barrel- panicky, defensive self protection. This horse is clearly unsuited for his job. But I will not infer this particular rider is the bad guy. We don't know that. What we do know is he got nailed. I know that I wouldn't be asking this horse to jump

                                Ouch.

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                                • #36
                                  As much as horses can 'save' their riders (and they do ALL the time) they can also make a deliberate choice to dump their riders. That horse was deliberate. His aim was deliberate and his contact was deliberate. Horses know EXACTLY where their hooves are! That horse meant contact and he got it.
                                  --Gwen <><
                                  "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                                  http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

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                                  • #37
                                    It might be interesting if somebody who knows Portuguese could translate the comments. Might shed some light, might not.
                                    What's wrong with you?? Your cheese done slid off its cracker?!?!

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by drmgncolor View Post
                                      OverandOnward, please tell me I read this wrong and you did not actually mean to say that the rider deserved to get kicked in the head repeatedly? Wow.
                                      My remark was, of course, tongue-in-cheek. Of course you did read too much into it. It's what people do on the internet.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Amwrider View Post
                                        I have seen a horse do this before and it was a very sweet horse that absolutely LOVES his rider.

                                        I think it is more a case of the horse being surprised that the rider is on the ground and not recognizing it as the rider, just a "something" that is behind them and they go into an......"OMG, OMG, OMG is that a predator" mode.
                                        This is exactly what I would assume in this situation, without knowing anything about the history of the horse. Spooks and rider falls can unnerve a lot of horses. Horses are not used to seeing people falling onto the ground and then laying there and it is likely he was frightened in the moment.

                                        Now, if this was a pattern of behavior and not the first time it happened, that's a different story.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          My thinking ... assuming the horse is trying to assassinate the rider is a bit anthropomorphic. It's an animal, behaving instinctively. It is my belief that people tend to read way to much into the "intentions" of animals. For myself, I doubt their intellectual capacity to organize a great deal in the way of "intentions," especially in a single instant and with no food involved.

                                          What I see is a prey animal behaving like a prey animal. No decisions being made, no intentions, just instinctive behavior. Is it dangerous? You bet! That's the sport of horses, especially when they are being used in an active way like jumping.

                                          We look for the best-tempered animals we can to try to reduce the danger, but there is always this potential in an animal that is hard-wired to react abruptly and extremely. That instinct kept them alive on the plains. They don't have the intellect to say to themselves "I don't need to do that any more." Some are certainly worse than others. But not out of "intention." I don't think assigning criminality to an animal with such a limited brain, and no capacity to understand the concept, is a good way of making decisions about their survival in the world of humans. Finding the right rider for the individual horse, and vice versa - yep, that's important.

                                          The answer to avoiding that entire incident, and not going there ever again, was with the rider. Not the horse. The horse is not the one who is paying the trainer/instructor, or sending in the entries.

                                          My pov.

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