• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

PSSM in Quarter horses!!!! BEWARE!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • PSSM in Quarter horses!!!! BEWARE!

    Dear all!!

    the AQHA has just released a new panel test for all genetic diseases found in QH: http://www.aqha.com/News/News-Articl...c-Testing.aspx

    About PSSM: http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/PSSM/home.html

    I have sadly just put down a filly last week purchased at the legacy sale in 2010 with PSSM. Her name was Revolution Dunit. I am extremely upset and needless to say hurt as my filly was in pain because the breeders (perhaps out of no fault of their own) breed 2 horses which gave a horse who was a carrier of PSSM. We have right now, the tools to make sure we do not RISK even passing these genes on... And why even play russia roulette???

    That I got the bad end of the stick because people want to make money... I cried for nights on end... I held my horse as she was put down... Why why why? Because humans want those famous horses the expense of the health of the horse. I cannot wrap my head around it at this point. Anyways... i hope everyone can do their part and not breed horses with issues!!!

    MESSAGE IS: get your horses tested before you breed and buy!!! for 86 bucks, is it worth the risk????

    Stephanie
    www.rusticfurnitureoutlet.ca

  • #2
    With all due respect and sympathy for your horse: why was she put down? Was it so bad that it couldn't be controlled with the proper high-fat, low starch, sugar-free diet?

    I have an PSSM/EPSM Percheron who's the poster child for the disease and it's well controlled by diet & high-dose Vitamin E.

    I do agree, tho, that to keep breeding horses with issues (HYPP, EPSM, etc.) is irresponsible.... hence why, despite stallion offers, I will never breed my Percheron. Why would I want to pass that on to another generation?
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      She was put down as the symptoms could not be managed despite the high fat/ good hay diet and being outside..... She had chronic diarrhoea and the idea of her being in that state for 4 months and in pain did not sit well with me. I read a lot of research and muscle damage is demonstrated at the age of 2 months...

      she was a almost 3 year old little filly... breaks my heart

      the worst is that because she was bought at a legacy sale which prides itself on selling quality QH for reining.. i have learnt that its BS... We forget that the heart is a muscle... their are muscles around the intestines... etc etc etc

      Comment


      • #4
        I am very sorry for the loss of your filly. That sucks. Truly.

        I think PSSM/EPSM has been a very poorly understood disease, particularly in regard to how widespread it is amongst all sorts of breeds.

        Until very recently, it's only been considered a disease of draft and heavy horses. And equally, many vets didn't really believe in it at all--just thought it was a fad disease du jour.

        I suspect that 4 years ago, when your filly was conceived, no-one had much idea of it being an issue in the QH population, so I'd cut the breeders a bit of slack from that perspective. It tends to be a disease of big, well muscled strains of horse, which is probably what they were breeding for.

        Comment


        • #5
          From link in original post: http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/PSSM/home.html

          Polysaccharide storage myopathy also occurs in many other breeds including Drafts, Draft crossbreeds, and warmbloods. Many of the clinical signs in these breeds differ from those found in Quarter Horses and related breeds. The signs found in Draft, Draft crossbreeds, and warmbloods include muscle soreness, reluctance to engage the hind quarters muscle atrophy, and weakness.
          There are two different types of PSSM found in horses, Type 1 and Type 2. Type 1 is found in over 20 breeds and commonly affects Quarter Horses, Quarter Horse-related breeds, Morgans, some Draft breeds and some warmbloods. Type 2 PSSM is found in Quarter Horses, Arabians, Thoroughbreds and potentially other light breeds. The Draft breeds affected by Type 1 PSSM are Belgians, Percherons and many Continental European Draft breeds. A high percentage of Continental European Draft breeds (62%) were found to carry the mutation responsible for Type 1 PSSM. The mutation that causes Type 1 PSSM is found in very low prevalence in Shires and Clydesdales, which are of British and Scottish origin, possibly indicating a greater genetic difference between these breeds and mainland European breeds (and their descendants). However, Type 1 PSSM is not neatly geographically distributed in the United States or Europe.

          Not exclusive to QHs. So maybe the following should apply to ALL horses.

          MESSAGE IS: get your horses tested before you breed and buy!!! for 86 bucks, is it worth the risk????
          The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings.

          Comment


          • #6
            My QH was very likely suffering from EPSM, though in a mild form. My TBxQH probably has it too though I never bothered with the test as the only treatment was diet and management and it's worked for him. His is a more severe form than my QH had, but is still something we can manage. At any rate I discovered the probability over seven years ago and at that time Quarter horses were known to be one of the breeds with higher instances of EPSM/PSSM.

            EPSM/PSSM isn't an absolute disorder, and it's not something that gets worse or better in an individual horse. It's a glycogen storage issue - the body normally stores glycogen in larger molecules with many branches that can be quickly broken down by muscles for fuel. With EPSM/PSSM the larger glycogen storage molecules have fewer branches making it harder for the muscles to break those molecules down into fuel. Horses with EPSM/PSSM actually have muscles that use glycogen more efficiently than "normal" horses, but they just can't break the molecules down fast enough to keep up with the incoming molecules. Taken to the extreme end of the spectrum, the glycogen storage molecules can take the form of a single long chain, making it impossible for the muscles to break it down fast enough to get the energy needed to survive. Foals born with this extreme die within days as their body starves to death.

            I suspect there are a lot more horses out there with a mild form of EPSM/PSSM than is commonly thought, but those horses can manage to muddle through under "normal" horse management practices, and endure the resulting low levels of pain/discomfort. At any rate, the vast majority of EPSM/PSSM afflicted horses have it to a degree that is quite manageable and it's not an immediate death sentence. I do see how someone who lost their young horse to a severe form of it would refuse to have another horse with the condition. At least there is a test for it now. And more feed companies are recognizing the needs of EPSM/PSSM and metabolic issues in making new feeds for those horses.

            Comment


            • #7
              I thought that you had to have your QH tested before registering it with the AQHA if it came from stock known to have this gene. Of course I don't know, just what I've heard. Do you even have to do DNA testing on a QH before registering with the AQHA?
              Man I'd be really pissed if that was my horse, especially if she came from known carriers of the gene. I'd make a lot of waves about that being that she probably wasn't cheap & that fact that she had to suffer & you loved her.
              The AQHA is definately all about the almighty $$$!
              Producing horses with gentle minds & brilliant movement!
              www.whitfieldfarm.shutterfly.com

              Comment


              • #8
                I believe it's HYPP that must be tested for, not PSSM.
                Caitlin
                *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rusticfurnitureoutlet View Post
                  That I got the bad end of the stick because people want to make money...

                  MESSAGE IS: get your horses tested before you breed and buy!!! for 86 bucks, is it worth the risk????
                  Amazes me that Aqha knows how to easily test for genetic diseases, and armed with that knowledge could breed out some really nasty things such as HYPP -- yet they choose not to. And they happily issue registrations to horses with serious genetic diseases. I don't understand their logic.
                  Veterinarians for Equine Welfare

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rusticfurnitureoutlet View Post
                    We forget that the heart is a muscle... their are muscles around the intestines... etc etc etc
                    It was my understanding that the type of muscle in most internal organs is not affected by EPSM/PSSM. It's only skeletal muscles that are of the type affected. Though there's no telling what may happen in an extreme case, I suppose.
                    "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

                    Spay and neuter. Please.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      well PSSM is a draft disease,generally, and like it or not you can't poke around a Hancock horses backyard w/o finding some draft horse in the woodpile...

                      I just looked up the OP's mare and sure enough there sits Hancock top and bottom in Driftwood Ike and Two Eyed Jack
                      http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/inde...mall_font=1&l=


                      Tamara
                      Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                      I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by philosoraptor View Post
                        Amazes me that Aqha knows how to easily test for genetic diseases, and armed with that knowledge could breed out some really nasty things such as HYPP -- yet they choose not to. And they happily issue registrations to horses with serious genetic diseases. I don't understand their logic.
                        It is up to each breeder to decide what to breed for, other than right now HYPP.

                        The AQHA, as a registry, has to abide by certain laws and one is that if you have two duly registered parents, as the owner of any offspring, you have a legal right to get that offspring registered by that registry.

                        That is a precedent that was established after a lawsuit brought by a quarter horse breeder, Malvin Hatley, when he could not register some horse from registered parents because association rules said a horse with white past certain arbitrary lines could not be registered.

                        After that lawsuit, that the AQHA lost, they now know that to make rules and/or change them, they have to follow a lengthy process, as determined by their attorneys.

                        No one can just say that, now that we have a test for this disease, we won't register any more horses if they are not tested and negative.
                        Like with HYPP, they had to bring that to the convention to be voted on and follow several years of partial rules before finally being able to demand that no Impressive bred horse from one or both parents not N/N, after being tested and N/N be registered.

                        To now decide if to test and when before registering is more complicated than just making new rules.

                        I agree that breeders that knowingly don't test or worse, keep breeding knowing they have a problem, no matter what breed, are not good breeders.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Stephanie:

                          I am VERY sorry about your mare. And I'm sorry that your vet was not able to help you manage her symptoms better.

                          The best horse I ever owned (and I've had horses for 40 years) was an EPSM horse--7/8ths Arabian and 1/8th stock-type pinto. However, his symptoms were VERY manageable through diet, close management, excellent veterinarian support, and meds. He foxhunted (hunted hounds and whipped in), we trail rode for 6 hours, competed in ranch versatility events and two-day clinics, showed in open and breed shows (rated and schooling) in hunter over fences, dressage, western trail, and more. He accompanied me on trips up and down the east coast, and from Virginia to Nebraska and South Dakota and back.

                          My horse was NOT the result of high-dollar, money-motivated breeding--he was the result of someone choosing to breed to a stallion who had an excellent mind, solid all around performance record, and was known to throw babies who were just like him.

                          My horse's half-brother by the same stallion also has EPSM, and is foxhunting very successfully--also whipping in, which is very demanding on a horse.

                          My point is twofold: a) that EPSM/PSSM is NOT necessarily a death sentence. Most EPSM/PSSM horses can be managed, and can continue to live long, comfortable, happy lives; and b) EPSM/PSSM horses are not necessarily the result of greediness.

                          Should breeders and buyers be more aware of this disorder? Yes! But there are MANY crippling and debilitating diseases and disorders that are the result of either genetics or conformation that we all need to be more aware of.

                          Sadly, I lost my EPSM horse almost three years ago due to a random pasture accident that had absolutely nothing to do with EPSM. So I know all too well the grief associated with losing a horse you love, and you will be in my thoughts.

                          JTA
                          Jennifer Thomas Alcott
                          Culpeper, VA

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            PSSM Forum on Facebook

                            While the majority of people associate PSSM (referred to as EPSM outside the stock horse industry) as a Draft disease, it is associated with at least 20 breeds, to date.

                            There's a very informative group on Facebook (PSSM Forum)that has a lengthy list of stock horses' test results for PSSM Type 1 (both positive and negative). The group is trying to educate about the disease and encourage testing.

                            Since the source(s) of PSSM have not been identified, yet Joe Hancock has been mentioned as a possible source in Quarter Horses (we have a concentration of his blood among our horses) we are testing--starting with the horses with the highest number of crosses and blood percentage of Joe Hancock. The first mare has 26 crosses to JH in 10 generations, 19% by blood and PSSM1 n/n. The second mare has 8 crosses, 17% by blood and PSSM n/n.

                            Testing for the Type 1 of PSSM has just recently become available. Type 2 still has ongoing research.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                              That is a precedent that was established after a lawsuit brought by a quarter horse breeder, Malvin Hatley, when he could not register some horse from registered parents because association rules said a horse with white past certain arbitrary lines could not be registered.
                              That particular horse was a full bro of Pacific Dan. I remember that, the horse had a little curl of white that went past the line of eye to the edge of the lip. I thought sure the AQHA would win that one, but nope, sure didn't.

                              Has anyone seen the QH who is marked like a blanketed Appy? I can't think of his name. He's a sorrel (or close, maybe more red) and a big blankie with peacock spots, if I remember right. Both parents were registered QH's. Sump'in' came out of the woodpile!!
                              GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by CRRanch View Post
                                While the majority of people associate PSSM (referred to as EPSM outside the stock horse industry) as a Draft disease, it is associated with at least 20 breeds, to date.

                                There's a very informative group on Facebook (PSSM Forum)that has a lengthy list of stock horses' test results for PSSM Type 1 (both positive and negative). The group is trying to educate about the disease and encourage testing.

                                Since the source(s) of PSSM have not been identified, yet Joe Hancock has been mentioned as a possible source in Quarter Horses (we have a concentration of his blood among our horses) we are testing--starting with the horses with the highest number of crosses and blood percentage of Joe Hancock. The first mare has 26 crosses to JH in 10 generations, 19% by blood and PSSM1 n/n. The second mare has 8 crosses, 17% by blood and PSSM n/n.

                                Testing for the Type 1 of PSSM has just recently become available. Type 2 still has ongoing research.
                                Joe Hancock and Leo are two AQHA lines that are known to have draft way back in there.
                                They also have much else.
                                Even with careful line breeding, you won't always get everything in some lines to pop up.
                                One way to know is genetic testing and we are getting more and more of that now.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  The American Quarter Horse: The disposable breed.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by nasalberry View Post
                                    The American Quarter Horse: The disposable breed.

                                    Was that necessary?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                                      Was that necessary?
                                      Hey ~ That is exactly how the so-called "professionals" around my area treat them - they are used-up and ready for the kill pen by 9 - 12 years of age. I kid you not. These people are class-1 asshats.

                                      they really do.
                                      And yes that pisses me off.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by nasalberry View Post
                                        Hey ~ That is exactly how the so-called "professionals" around my area treat them - they are used-up and ready for the kill pen by 9 - 12 years of age. I kid you not. These people are class-1 asshats.

                                        they really do.
                                        And yes that pisses me off.
                                        That is no reason to bash a whole breed of horses.

                                        We used to breed, train and race both, TBs and AQHAs.
                                        In our experience, the AQHA ones were not the ones you may have considered the "disposable" ones.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X