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Would you buy a saddlebred for dressage

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  • CBrand- your horse is gorgeous

    And as far as that second horse above (the pinto one)- I imagine he could be really nice- just because he's loafing around in a western saddle on that page doesn't mean much. We used to ride a fabulous saddlebred stallion western all the time but he could still pull it out under english tack at the shows Besides which it's really next to impossible to say much besides "saddlebred-y" about his conformation since there's not one decent picture of him from the side on level ground. But I don't see anything that looks bad enough to say "I won't even comment.... ugh" though I admit to not being a conformation expert such as we have here at COTH

    _____________________________
    "It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
    **
    PMU foals- better than you think!
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.

    Comment


    • Glad you finally posted a pic of your gorgeous boy, Carol. I was floored by those pics when they were posted on the ASB sporthorse site.

      Comment


      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
        DMK,

        I think there is a distinction between "where to look to have the best odds" and "what are the criteria for buying (or not buying)the horse."

        For instance (to take an extreme case), if someone were looking for a top level jumper. I wouldn't say "You should go to the New Holland 'killer' sales." That just isn't where you are going to have the best chances of finding a good jumper.

        But that is where Snowman (and some other good horses, IIRC) came from.

        If the question were reworded:
        "Would you buy a horse from the killer auction for a jumper?"
        or even
        "Would you NOT buy a horse for a jumper because it originally came from a killer auction?"
        what would your response be then?

        <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

        Whew! Just got back from a hectic day and a half doing the hunter breeding thing... Tired, seriously tired...

        Anyway, Janet, to answer your question I would judge any horse on its individual merits once it was in front of me, regardless of its breeding or dubious background.

        But chances are if I was shopping for a jumper that I wanted to do A/O and higher, I wouldn't specifically go shopping at New Holland. That's not to say there is no future great jumper there, it's just the odds aren't working in your favor. And I like to stack the odds in my favor. I think most people do, and it isn't an unreasonable expectation. I also think the people who do find those special exceptions should be duly noted. What they did was special, and points for that.

        On a personal note, if I had the resources I would take more chances with prospects than I currently do. Mind you we all take chances. A person who only has $25K to spend is running a higher risk than one with $100K. Since I get OTTBs off the track, I take some risk too. Others take more risk. It's all in what you can afford or be comfortable with, right?

        lexiboo, I think if you are judging, you might not want to speculate on whether the animal you scored lower had bad training, a bad day or whatever. All a judge can do is look at what is in front of him that day. But as to the point of suitability, I guess we will have to just not agree. At the end of the day I think there are individuals out there who are not suited to certain disciplines, otherwise I would take my corgi to the terrier trials!

        Call your village. Their idiot is missing...
        Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

        Comment


        • Then we agree.

          Janet
          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
          Janet

          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

          Comment


          • Cbrand, I know you are new here, and I know you are ardently defending your chosen breed, but there is no reason to get personal about this.

            You said, "Well bred sporthorses have necks that come out high out of their shoulders. It is called an "uphill" build and it is what makes it easier for them to later do more advanced work."

            The level at which the neck leaves the shoulder has nothing to do with whether the horse is built uphill or not. Dressage and some jumper people prefer a slightly higher neckset than many hunter people. Personally, I like something in the middle. The typical saddlebred neckset is an extreme. Ironically, I spent last night watching a large saddlebred show. The winning horses were the ones who traveled with upright necks and faces on the vertical, even in the pleasure classes.

            "I would say that you do not have an educated eye."

            And I would say that it's fine if you disagree with me, but I stand by my statement. *I* would not consider that horse as a sporthorse prospect. Sorry. You seem to love him and that's fine, but I don't. I prefer a flat, reachy stride with no knee. Do try to get your points across without resorting to personal insults. It tends to make people believe you more. Also, you say that "pictures of ASBs are always captured at the top of their stride". Which is it - is the horse a good saddlebred or a good sporthorse? You seem to imply above that they are mutually exclusive. As for my own eye, not that it is any of your concern, but that's why I do things like going to horse shows for other disciplines. I discovered last evening that I could see myself having fun with the shaky tail thing.

            "Look at where he carries his head when he trots."

            I see that. Still high. Your point is?

            As for the third horse, how is it that I insulted it by calling it a cute backyard type, but it is ok for you to call it a "dude horse"? My statement about not discussing that horse's conformation was precisely because of the bad picture and the western saddle covering half the horse. Be careful - Art Deco's very kind owner posts here and I'm not sure she would take kindly to your implication that her homebreds are overpriced!

            I never said these horses were not suited for dressage. I'm sure with the right patient owner, such as yourself, these horses could be successful at the lower levels. After all, dressage is a great basis for all training; that is what the French root means. I stated in my original post that *I* simply would not go looking for a saddlebred for dressage. After my experiences last evening, I would seek out a saddlebred for saddleseat events - I am hooked on their expressive, sometimes explosive personalities.

            Comment


            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
              Cbrand, I know you are new here, and I know you are ardently defending your chosen breed, but there is no reason to get personal about this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              I'm sorry if you thought that that my statements were personal or if they hurt your feelings.

              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
              The level at which the neck leaves the shoulder has nothing to do with whether the horse is built uphill or not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              I disagree. I think the angle at which the neck leaves the shoulder contributes greatly towards the "uphill" build.


              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
              Ironically, I spent last night watching a large saddlebred show. The winning horses were the ones who traveled with upright necks and faces on the vertical, even in the pleasure classes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              These are Saddleseat ASBs. This is a different type from the sporthorse ASB. For example, my ASB was never going to make it as a Saddleseat horse because his neck was set too far forward for a Saddleseat or fine harness ASB show horse. However he is perfect for a dressage horse.


              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
              I prefer a flat, reachy stride with no knee. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              This may be fine for hunters, but in my experience a horse has to have lift from a free shoulder out through the knee and out to the hoof to get those big money extensions. Look at the popularity of the Fresian horse in dressage. Talk about a breed with tons of knee action! (Not to mention the upright necks!)

              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
              Also, you say that "pictures of ASBs are always captured at the top of their stride". Which is it - is the horse a good saddlebred or a good sporthorse? You seem to imply above that they are mutually exclusive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              This is where the culture clash comes in. This horse is owned by Saddleseat ASB people. Look at the things they reference in their add. These things mean nothing to the sporthorse buyer, but everything to the ASB buyer. They photographed this horse in the way of their world, not in the way of the dressage world. I think what you need to realize is that you need to talk about two disciplines Saddleseat and Dressage (or sporthorse). This horse is a nice ASB, but he is clearly not going to be the Saddleseat type or else he would already be in training... those Saddleseat horses fetch BIG money. He is too forward headed. He is probably not hot enough. He doesn't have enough upright action (despite what you think you see in one picture). He is more of the sporthorse type.



              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
              I see that. Still high. Your point is?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              Too high?! For what hunters? This is a dressage dream in the making. I love the way he is pushing through his front. He is so uphill! Remember, he is probably only 18 months in this photo. With training under saddle, I can see this horse really stretching through his back and into the contact.

              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
              As for the third horse, how is it that I insulted it by calling it a cute backyard type, but it is ok for you to call it a "dude horse"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              I did not call him a dude horse and to call a horse a "backyard" type is meant to discount it. I believed that you meant to be insulting. Did I misunderstand you?

              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
              Be careful - Art Deco's very kind owner posts here and I'm not sure she would take kindly to your implication that her homebreds are overpriced!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              Ahhh your words not mine. I never said that the Art Deco babies were not nice or over priced. And I stand by my words.... this horse has a super canter and for someone looking for a pinto sporthorse, this horse is a good value at $4000obo! He IMHO is worth a second look.

              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
              I'm sure with the right patient owner, such as yourself, these horses could be successful at the lower levels.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


              My horse was very easy to train. He hit the dressage ring with less than six months of training (lesson every other week... ridden 3 days a week). He showed 1st level his first season and was high point at one show with a score of 71% (that means he out scored all the warmbloods there...). He trained over the winter (as do most dressage horses) and he showed this year at 2nd level with a score of 63.9% at a USDF show. Not bad. If I had the money to have him ridden by a professional, I'm sure that he could climb up the levels just like any other dressage horse. He was working on his changes this summer. It's not like I've put years into getting him where he is.

              Do I think he is going to the Olympics. Heck no! But he is certainly doing just as well as the Warmbloods on our local dressage circuit. Isn't that what people want in a dressage horse?

              Comment


              • Hello,

                Remember that the original question was about "lower levels" of dressage ...

                A point was made about any sound horse of any breed being able to be competitive in the lower levels I believe is valid.

                But the original question has been greatly deviated from, and the posts are getting rather defensive.

                Lots of claims have been madde about who does what at home ... but really who cares ?

                I always laugh when I read about people slamming warmbloods - because they own a "whatever" horse doing "whatever"... I just keep it in context.

                It does not answer the question however ...

                Yours in sport,

                Lynn

                Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique


                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...
                Suerte Hostage Crisis Survivor
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                Comment


                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cbrand:
                  I disagree. I think the angle at which the neck leaves the shoulder contributes greatly towards the "uphill" build.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  It does, but there is such as thing as too much and non-cull saddlebreds have too much.

                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This may be fine for hunters, but in my experience a horse has to have lift from a free shoulder out through the knee and out to the hoof to get those big money extensions. Look at the popularity of the Fresian horse in dressage. Talk about a breed with tons of knee action! (Not to mention the upright necks!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  Ehm.... Fresians are popular (and they are hardly sweeping the Nation!) with those who like the look but last time I checked, how many are being campaigned successfully enough so as to be honest to god possibles for a Team? How many true-to-the-term BNTs choose to ride Fresians? I'm guessing the number is similar to that of those on ASBs!

                  This makes me think of Andalusians. When shopping for my husband's dream horse (grey Andi stallion), I found very quickly that there was a huge difference between the traditional baroque Andalusians (who move similarly to Fresians) and those Andalusians which moved out with a big reach of stride and minimal knee action (think Invasor). A well-trained baroque type started at about $20,000. A well-trained modern type started closer to $60,000.

                  All I can say is, thank god SO had to have the baroque type!

                  If you were to attend a KWPN keuring you would see some fantastic riding horses with superb movement and a bit of lift in the knees, but nothing as extreme as that first ASB. Not unless you waited to see the harness horses go! FWIW, the trial of improving the harness type with ASB stallions was a failure.

                  I still say that as long as the animal has the right mind and is sound, he would make a nice lower level dressage horse regardless of his breeding. However, when shopping for my next upper level prospect, I will again stack the deck by buying a Warmblood with a large dose of approved Thoroughbred blood.

                  Susie
                  Royal Oak Sporthorses
                  Dutch Warmbloods & British Sporthorses.

                  Comment


                  • Stepping into this way late, but in answer to the title of the thread:

                    You can't really answer it with yes or no. If you were serious about competing and moving up through the levels, you must face reality and take a good hard look at what you are competing against and saddle yourself accordingly.

                    If it is for pleasure and learning, I would buy a Saddlebred for dressage as long as all the other pieces were there: temperament and soundness.

                    I will tell you one thing, though. I think you can get a good or great SB for a fraction of what the average WB is going for these days...

                    "I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
                    -Louisa May Alcott
                    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

                    Comment


                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celtic Witch:
                      Ehm.... Fresians are popular (and they are hardly sweeping the Nation!) with those who like the look but last time I checked, how many are being campaigned successfully enough so as to be honest to god possibles for a Team? How many true-to-the-term BNTs choose to ride Fresians? I'm guessing the number is similar to that of those on ASBs!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                      True BUT there are probably less than ten people on these boards that could actually RIDE the type of horse that BNTs are competing for the team on. And by ride I mean ride well at FEI level, which is where those horses belong. Those BNTs certainly didn't learn all the FEI movements on something that high-powered when they started out.

                      I think the reason that so many amateurs in the US are stuck at the lower levels forever is that they are unsutiably horsed. Either totally overmounted or on something that washed out in another discipline and is already 8 or 10 when they get it (and I'm not shooting my mouth off I know a LOT of dressage competitors pro and ammy). And the reason is typically $$. Ammy wants nice horse to move up on, ends up buying what they can afford spends years learning to ride/ retrain it, horse maxes out/ dies of old age, rinse, repeat.

                      Nitpicking over "neckset", "uphill build" and "quality of movement" for a lower level schoolhorse is just silly if it's sound, well-mannered and it's mouth hasn't been ruined. When you can ride a decent 4th level test, then you can start worrying about stuff like that.

                      Comment


                      • There have been some wonderful posts here IMHO, and I just want to add a couple of thoughts....

                        These horses were not originally bred to be "the peacock of the show ring". They were bred to be terrific, comfortable, all around athletes. The fact is that the only type of horse that the American Saddlebred Horse Association has promoted with any vigor- to date- is that show horse type. The types of horses of which Carol speaks so ardently- are actually 90% (by most breeder/trainer estimates) of the 3000 or so ASBs that are registered each year. Only around 10% of those horses registered each year are of the type that is presently in vogue for the ASB show world. The ones who have all of the requisite qualities to make it VERY expensive- the rest aren't.

                        Sure, we get incorrect horses- so does every other breed of horse- but the biggest reason that these horses will not make show horses is that they can't pick their head up- without being crippled- and put it where the show horses need to wear themselves to win. The horses must have what is referred to as a "double hinge"- they have to come out fairly high from the shoulder- but they must also be able to "turn at the poll"- an even tougher thing to find.

                        SO- we have a large number of horses that are wonderful for any other purpose. Some will make terrific eventing horses- some will make pleasure horses, stock horses- and some will make dressage horses. Many will wind up pulling Amish buggies, since the Amish have ready cash to buy these horses directly from the dealers who pick them up fromt he trainers' farms. I find that almost any horse in the world can learn most of the tricks through GP- but how many have you seen competing that do them WELL ?? ASBs are no different. They have strengths and weaknesses.

                        I would agree that it is very difficult for most people to look at a show horse- with completely upside down development, compared to that of a dressage horse- and see the physical potential for dressage and sport horse work.

                        The gelding that has won the IBC class for ASBs the last three years at DAD was purchased out of the ring at Tattersalls. He was a green broke three year old show horse prospect. Hilda Gurney gave him a 72.4%.The mare on the opening page of ASB sport horse website is a show horse wash out. She got a 72.4% in the yeld mare class last year- the winning score was a 77.5%- and she was the only unbranded horse in the class. Granted, she got a lousy ribbon- but her score didn't say "please take your ugly horse home". However, these horses have been worked as dressage horses, and have correct development for that purpose. They were turned out as dressage horses. They are dressage horses.

                        Julie www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com
                        When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                        www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                        http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • "Look at the popularity of the Fresian horse in dressage. Talk about a breed with tons of knee action! (Not to mention the upright necks!)"

                          Oh, cbrand, you lost me on that one. Fresians are NOT popular with many pros, and certainly not incredibly popular with judges. In fact, while scribing last year at a dressage show, several fresians came through the ring. One judge remarked "I hate having to score these horses. They go so differently than what we want to see." Lots of knee action and an upright neck, very little swing through the back and zero suspension. They are beautiful animals, but they are, IMHO, what they were bred for- stunning carriage horses.

                          Comment


                          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Master Tally:
                            Oh, cbrand, you lost me on that one. Fresians are NOT popular with many pros, and certainly not incredibly popular with judges. In fact, while scribing last year at a dressage show, several fresians came through the ring. One judge remarked "I hate having to score these horses. They go so differently than what we want to see." Lots of knee action and an upright neck, very little swing through the back and zero suspension. They are beautiful animals, but they are, IMHO, what they were bred for- stunning carriage horses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Are you arguing against Friesians, or are you trying to prove that judges are ignorant?! I don't think most judges are as clueless as the one you scribed for. Any judge who "hates" to judge certain types of horses should either only judge at breed shows, or even better, not leave his backyard!

                            As a side note: does anyone else see the irony in debating whether or not ASBs are suitable for dressage? Competitive dressage is becoming more and more like saddleseat. Watch an upper level test. Watch the extreme leg motion. Notice how hot the horses are. The major difference between dressage and saddleseat is what the rider is wearing!

                            Comment


                            • Lower level dressage is all about the basic training that EVERY horse in all disciplines, be it western, english, saddle seat or driving ought to get. Every horse ought to be capable of the basic movements, regardless of it's breed, perfect or flawed conformation.

                              To aim for a higher level in cutting, racing, jumping, dressage, park driving, combined driving, etc, there are certian breeds that have been carefully aimed for a particular job. That doesn't mean that a Clydsdale can't hunt or an ASB can't do dressage, it simply is that the majority are better at the job their breed was "designed" for.

                              I think you will find that the ASB's who excel at something other than their breed standard fall outside of those standards. Thank goodness someone recognizes their other talents and aims them to another discipline. It doesn't follow that ASB's as a whole are good dressage or jumper prospects for upper level competition.

                              No, ASB's weren't originally "peacocks of the show ring" but they were specifically bred to provide showy, comfortable gaits and not to cover lots of ground with a minimum of effort or to fox hunt, race or pull heavy weights. They were the cadillacs, the town cars of the wealthy. Not the Jaguars, the pick up trucks, the motorcycles or the commuter vehicles.

                              Friendship is Love without his wings
                              -Lord Byron
                              "If you would have only one day to live, you should spend at least half of it in the saddle."

                              Comment


                              • My husband and I raise pinto ASB's and have for 15 years now and I have to make a few comments concerning the pinto because I am accustomed to picking them apart:

                                #1 - He is roman nosed (bad roman nosed)
                                #2 - He has an extremely coarse and thick throatlatch
                                #3 - He is short legged as compared to the depth of shoulder which means his stride will be shortened considerably
                                #4 - He has a weak flank area which could possibly be strengthened over time but it would take a lot of correct exercising to build those muscles up

                                Of the horses pictured, I would say he would be the least likely pick for a dressage or hunter prospect, let alone Saddleseat. However, I think he might make a lovely western prospect as pictured because he would be allowed to have a shorter stride and a lot of jogging would result in stronger hindquarter muscling as well.

                                I totally agree with the description of the other two horses and feel they are excellent prospects.

                                Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention about the pinto's conformation - he's pigeyed. We hope to never produce a horse with his conformation in our program. That said, his coloring is the most desirable quality about him and we do strive for the 50/50 color combination.

                                Susan N.
                                Susan N.

                                Don't get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am, my attitude depends on who you are.

                                Comment


                                • lol... ok, I haven't read through the entire thread but..

                                  'lower level' doesn't even have to be past training, right? Couldn't this horse do training level tests? (even well?) Unless I missed something in the origonal post about this horse being suitable for FEI or a real DQ's next prospect...
                                  (edited to note: I also wasn't able to view the photo)

                                  - To Ride A Horse Is To Borrow Freedom -
                                  - To Ride A Horse Is To Borrow Freedom -

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                                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                                    Oh, cbrand, you lost me on that one. Fresians are NOT popular with many pros, and certainly not incredibly popular with judges.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


                                    Hey someone help me out here because I can't remember the details, but wasn't it a Fresian who was 2002 USDF AA horse of the year in BOTH 2nd and 3rd (same horse!!)? That horse was clearly popular with the judges

                                    Can't speak for pros, but I know that AAs go GaGa for the Fresians. In the end, isn't the sporthorse market really about the AAs anyway?

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                                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cbrand:
                                      Hey someone help me out here because I can't remember the details, but wasn't it a Fresian who was 2002 USDF AA horse of the year in BOTH 2nd and 3rd (same horse!!)? That horse was clearly popular with the judges <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                      <LI>1999: USDF Horse of the Year, 2nd level: Tinus (Friesian)

                                      <LI>2000: USDF Horse of the Year, 3rd level: Tinus (Friesian)
                                      <LI>2000: USDF Horse of the Year, Prix St. Georges: Jorrit (Friesian)

                                      <LI>2001: USDF Horse of the Year, 4th level: Tinus (Friesian)
                                      <LI>2001: USDF Horse of the Year, Prix St. Georges: Tinus (Friesian)

                                      It's important to remember that these horses are probably exceptions. In fact, they might not even meet the breed standard! Flukes happen, after all!

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                                      • QUOTE "FWIW, the trial of improving the harness type with ASB stallions was a failure."

                                        Not suprised as most untrained ASB's that I've seen do not naturally move with extreme hock and knee action in the pasture. The KWPN decided to go with Hackneys (crossed in with the Gelderlanders) as their action does not have to be inhanced with heavy shoes and so much artifice.

                                        cbrand...I completely agree with everything you've said as it is entirely true. Oh, and the baroque breeds are becoming tremendously popular with AA's; the ASB crossed with the baroque breeds, especially the Friesians and the Andalusians, sell extremely well.

                                        As far as lower level dressage, as long as the horse and rider work together, it doesn't matter what the breed is.

                                        "The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
                                        But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

                                        Valkyrie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

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                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lexiboo:


                                          + 1999: USDF Horse of the Year, 2nd level: Tinus (Friesian)

                                          + 2000: USDF Horse of the Year, 3rd level: Tinus (Friesian)
                                          + 2000: USDF Horse of the Year, Prix St. Georges: Jorrit (Friesian)

                                          + 2001: USDF Horse of the Year, 4th level: Tinus (Friesian)
                                          + 2001: USDF Horse of the Year, Prix St. Georges: Tinus (Friesian)

                                          It's important to remember that these horses are probably exceptions. In fact, they might not even meet the breed standard! Flukes happen, after all! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          Apparently Tinus is one exceptional animal with exceptional riding and training.

                                          I didn't find the judge to be ignorant, nor did she hate Friesians... in fact, she was lamenting about how difficult it was to give good collective marks to horses who had very accurate tests but that go so differently than what is preferred. There was no "freedom" to the "freedom and regularity", the whole "impulsion" part is a bit difficult, and I certainly didn't see any "lightness of movement."

                                          I have ridden with 3 successful FEI trainers, none of whom had a Freisian in their barn. Again, I think they are lovely, wonderful animals, but I don't find them to have desireable traits for dressage. The breed standard just isn't conducive to it.

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