My fortune made ... easy millions the gypsy vanner way

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Natty Dread

Working Hunter

Join Date: May. 2, 2001

Posts: 372

Location: Lake Worth, Florida USA
#161

Feb. 21, 2004, 07:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Shire:
It's just the opposite. Let's look at the breeding down of bone in the TB's for comparison. Most track horses don't have a long span of success on the track because of the over use and small bone that breeders have created in this breed. Now when you look at OTTB's it's common to find bone chips, fractures, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certainly there are horses that sustain serious injury, but I think you are way off base in this comment.

There are many, many fantastic OTTBs used today as hunters, jumpers, and Dressage horses. There are equally as many used in 3-day Eventing. I cannot tell you the scores of horses with mediocre careers on the track who absolutely excel on the polo field.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
By that same argument, why do you think that the hunter/jumper world has gone to cross breds?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't aware that the hunter/jumper world had gone to cross-breds. This is a new one for me. I am here in Florida and love to go over to watch the horses at WEF. I am seeing Warmbloods an Thoroughbreds. I have yet to see anything that I would call a Shire/Thoroughbred cross.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Shire/TBs (if you can actually find one for sale...) Perch/TB crosses, etc. are all the rage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you would like to find a Shire cross or any other draft cross I highly recommend the Waverly Horse Sale in Waverly, Iowa. There are literally tons there and they sell super cheap. Is there any wonder?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>(The current rage is to have a 'colored' horse in the show ring, so any argument that says they won't be successful won't ring true. For example, Art Deco babies.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is SO FIVE MINUTES AGO.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> They are well suited for the show ring as
hunter jumper mounts for amatuer and youth riders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This here is false advertising and a BALD-FACED LIE. These horses are no more suitable as hunters as a mule. They were "bred" to drive wagons. How often do you see a Belgian in the hunter ring?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> (Think about how girls love to groom! "Ah, a my pretty pony that has come to life!".)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is so typical. Thats right folks looks and color ARE the most important factor in purchasing a horse or pony.

****************************
\"Just when I thought I was out ,They pull me back in!\"
-Sylvio Dante--\"The Sopranos\"
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Shire

Training Level

Join Date: Aug. 9, 2001

Posts: 89

Location: Kentucky
#162

Feb. 21, 2004, 09:14 AM

Gee Natty, I guess you missed the point of when I emphasized TEMPERAMENT in the previous post you forgot to quote. So, your sarcasm of "This is so typical. That's right folks looks and color ARE the most important factor in purchasing a horse or pony" ran off the track. And the popularity of the paint crosses in the show ring is still popular.

But you do make a point. The bigger question to all of this is why should there be a popularity contest in the show ring when it comes to horses. Why can't we just look at the individual horses' ability and not to color/feathering to include or EXCLUDE a talented horse?

You're right on the OTTB's. Many havegone on to have successful careers.But the numbers

s of horses you find post track with these types of injuries are well founded. Just ask anyone who works with CANTER horses or RERUN. Or just simply look at their sites of available horses. I live in Kentucky, and happen to both rescue and retrain OTTB's. They are wonderful horses. Thoroughbreds can be found that are sound, sane and good mounts for the hunter jumper world. They are among the most POPULAR. The sound ones usually after retraining run in the 15,000 range (those who are unproven in the show ring, but have good movement.). So what's the difference in price? I'm not seeing you debate the price comparison in that area? Sadly, there are more TB's that don't have the mind to be a suitable mount for a child or an BAR (Beginner Adult Rider). Personally, I'm not the type of coach who is going to put a child on a hot horse just because it's in style to ride a "TB" or "Warmblood". Fact is, I want my kids to be SAFE!
I'm not sure where you've been showing in the hunter ring. Shire/TBs.... Perchie crosses, Belgian crosses ARE in the Hunter/Jumper show ring. THEY ARE WARMBLOODS. Perhaps you missed them because any feathering is shaved.
It's not a bald face lie or false advertising to say that they're in the show ring... it's not a bald face lie or false advertising to say that the Gypsy Horses won't be suitable. Afterall, what ARE the requirements under USAE to pin in the hunter ring????? As quoted by the USAE, " The hunter division is open to horses, stallions,mares or geldings. Only am. adults may ride ponies in hunter classes, providing the fences do not exceed 3'3 in height. However ponies cannot be cross-entered into the Regular, Green Pony, and children's Hunter Pony sections at the same competition." Under Classifications they are separated into Green and Regular sections a-I. Help me understand.... where in the USAE rules are Gypsy Horses EXCLUDED? I mean, does it say anywhere in Chapter V. Judging does it exclude Vanners, Gypsy Cobs, etc. from competing if they are sound and complete the requirements for being judged? Gee, if that's the case, the USAE better suspend me as a trainer and coach.
Are you sure you're not confusing this with the polo world? I understand that Polo is your specialty and I won't debate that Gypsy horses probably aren't going to be polo ponies.....
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Celtic Witch

Working Hunter

Join Date: Apr. 14, 2001

Posts: 686

Location: Dreaming of Yorkshire in sunny San Diego.
#163

Feb. 21, 2004, 09:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by magnoliadrafts:
As far as the advertising/marketing campaign goes...can you not separate that from the horse itself? The trucks you drive, the sodas you drink, the clothing you wear...do you agree with EVERY marketing tactic that they have all used? Must you agree with the marketing to love the "product'??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be why there are rules and regulations for marketing and advertising. If Ford or Coca-Cola crosses them, they get taken down a peg.

The smoke y'all are blowing up your buyer's arses is illegal. There is no real breed standard and certainly not a studbook in existance abroad. Yes, a good Irish Cob of show quality will fetch a good price, but still not one in line to what they are being sold for here and most of the animals I see here are more akin to the every day ponies I had in my riding schools than Lynn Russell's stunning show cobs. Now, I have no problem with your ability to make money. That's a free market economy at its best. My problem is with the BLATANT LIES used to sell these horses.

Lynn Russell would be the foremost importer of Irish Cobs from Ireland to England and she will tell you the hard work she puts in scouring roadsides and farms for a diamond in the rough. These are generally 3 and 4 year olds which have little to no handling, matted manes and tails, ticks and fleas and require immense time to make them presentable and are horrific to break in. This hardly rings of the wonderful tradition, magic and gypsy love y'all wax poetically about.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
SOme horsetraders on the Internet are buying from the first category and selling as though the horse is from the second category. This was predictable, hense the breeds name being protected for it's society, so that the promise of the Vanner breed could be delivered for Gypsies and anyone that falls in love with it, it really is that simple. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would love to see proof of your above price quotes. As someone who regularly bought very nice Cobs for riding schools, I can attest to never having paid more than Â£1500 (less than $3000) for the best types who had decent conformation, good tempers and lovely hair. They were only good for the very beginners and disabled groups, but did their jobs nicely and were worth their weight in gold for that. However, I still wasn't willing to give silly money for an animal I could find on almost any roadside.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The registry is of course complete with pedigrees, but not currently on line. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And who runs this English registry?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>We are talking about Gypsies not English breeders. I have never met a non Gypsy breeder that imtimately understands this breed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I never met a "Gypsy" who didn't see a good deal coming. If they could iron out their accents, they'd all be in line for Oscars.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Gypsies dont have farms,and typically do not read or write. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So how were they able to maintain a studbook?

Susie

Royal Oak Sporthorses
Dutch Warmbloods & British Sporthorses.
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N103

Working Hunter

Join Date: Dec. 6, 2003

Posts: 179

Location: Harford County, MD, USA
#164

Feb. 21, 2004, 01:45 PM

quote:
______________________________________________
Originally posted by N103:
Now wait just a minute <snip> Come on now, in this country, at least on the east coast, all you hear is "TB TB TB", and more recently "imported warmbood",etc.

A lot of TB's, even registered ex-racers, have bad conformation. They can be insane, nervous, accident prone, and sometimes dangerous. But-despite this, everyone is proud to say that they have one. That's marketing right there
______________________________________________

quote:
______________________________________________
Originally posted by FairWeather:

Are you KIDDING ME? Do you know how hard we work to 'get the word out' that OTTB's make nice horses? Do you know HOW MANY prejudices they face? Sorry, in my end of the world, its Warmblood warmblood warmblood. Why else would we have to buy nice sound horses for 300$ a piece??
_______________________________________________

FairWeather-No, I'm not kidding I said "SOME", not all. I said "EVEN" registered ex-racers, which denoted that most are good, but not all are. And I am NOT suggesting that OTTB's are inferior to any other type of hot horse. My only horse is a slaughter rescue (part TB) and I have no prejudices against any breed.

I think it's great that the OTTB has so many options for second careers now. I have helped publicize them too, and I applaud the work that you do. Plus, I doubt my comments on this board will hurt the breed TB owners on this board joke about how accident prone and "crazy" their horses are-not in a bad way, but just because it's something we've come to accept

BUT...TB's are not for everyone, nor are OTTB's. I agree that they are great horses-for people who are suited for "hot horses" (I mean "hot" as in the notoriously "energetic" breeds). My point is that not everyone should have a TB or Warmblood. I think people don't look into less common breeds, and go for the popular breeds. Usually this is fine, but many people are probably pressured into buying horses that are too much for them. At the local shows in my area, I see way too many kids on too much horse. I am invovled in 4-H shows and local AHSA shows, so I see very few warmbloods (that's a whole different level). Maybe it's just my area, but I know too many people pressured into buying the popular hunter breeds-usually TB's and TB crosses. I'd just like to see some diversity!

The only thing I disagree with is "where else would we get good horses for $300". I don't think it's a good thing that the racing industy breeds so many TB's that we can get them for so cheap-however good they are. I'd happily pay much more if it meant that less TB's would be needing new homes. I can't appreciate the fact that so many horses need new homes, and those that don't find them often go to slaughter...
Please don't take offense, I hope I've explained this decently

Shire-I mentioned how I thought it might be hard on the joints of jumping draft horses. Thank you for explaining your take on it. I see what you mean about the smaller feet in proportion to the body sometimes being the problem.
Comment
Vanner

Training Level

Join Date: Feb. 18, 2004

Posts: 14

Location: Ocala Florida USA
#165

Feb. 23, 2004, 07:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Natty Dread:
The reason there is no "contact" information for these "Gypsy breeders" is that the US buyers don't want them to know how much they are selling these horses for over here. It would screw up their deal.

Those price figures that were thrown around earlier are very interesting, however, I am certain not one single "Gypsy Breeder" was even remotely involved in the giving/receiving of those prices.

These are Colored Draft horses/ponies. They are no more magical then any other horse. They probably make excellent driving horses because, well, the people that have had them all along drove them. Its not exactly rocket science.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think in some cases you are correct about contact information. There are importers that simply do not want you to have their contacts, but in general it is more complicated than that. There are cultural sensitivities and there are tax sensitivities.

As it relates to prices Gypsies absolutely enjoy the prices quoted before. They receive those prices from one Gypsy to another all the time.

What is fooling everyone is the prices of common coloured horses that you can buy like livestock, they are not nearly as expensive to anyone including Gypsies. These are the common coloured draft type horses/pony's that Gypsies raise and as you suggest are not magical at all. The breed that is magical lives in smaller numbers and evolved in a more focused way. A Gypsy wants to sell you a horse and he wants to sell you what you can afford. You will never even see his best mares if #1 he believes you do not want to pay the price of his well bred horses or #2 he does not want to sell the horse. He will not price the horse If he does not want to sell it. In this case you are likely to never even see it.

As it relates to contacting English breeders. I am sure you will find more interest in coloured horses today but you are much less likely to find a breeder that is really in the zone with the best bred horses. They are typically buying and selling coloured horses that are in the lower price ranges. There are lots of coloured horses a Gypsy would refer to as middelin horses. These will be less expensive, just breed them up to a realy good stallions and dont buy any stallions or intact colts from this category.
Comment
Vanner

Training Level

Join Date: Feb. 18, 2004

Posts: 14

Location: Ocala Florida USA
#166

Feb. 23, 2004, 07:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Therese:
Anne, Kels,

I'm 99.9% sure the customizer was LJJ. It was a big issue that was discussed at length on Haynet.

I remember being in Germany at the time and in each copy of the Pferd Market there were literally 100s of the "Tinker" or "Vanner" horses, for just above meat price. The "Stallion" prospects went for maybe $1500 US.

Marketing, it's an amazing thing...

- Therese

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now! - Zaphod Beeblebrox in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Therese the horses that were imported to Germany Holland and sweden by the droves in 1998 were in general not the breed at all, they were common coloured horses that can be purchased for meat prices. The public was fooled by horsetraders telling them that Gypsy horses are all the same and just go by different names. The Tinker thing is night and day from the Vanner effort.There is a breed and no breed and a trader that does not want the general public to know it or simply does not understand or care themselves. He wants you to believe they all just go by different names. It is a lot more complicated than that. When the stallion potential animal was selling for $1,500 in Germany Gypsies were paying 20,000 BPS for the right stallion. The breed has to be discovered in these countries because they did not understand it when the exodus began. There were some good horses that got mixed in with the poor ones when Ireland did their roundup and sales of coloured horses. The good ones are bred to select stallions and then run loose with the knacker horses, some were caught in the phenomenon and sold for nothing.
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titan

Advanced

Join Date: Jan. 19, 2002

Posts: 1569

Location: Michigan
#167

Feb. 23, 2004, 08:34 AM

I just saw the news about the 14 imported horses that crashed on their way to quarantine in KY. They were apparently gypsy horses with an estimated value of $250,000. That's over $15,000 each (not meat prices). Very sad that two had to be put down

http://www.positivestepfarm.com

Positive Step Farm
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Marcella

Advanced

Join Date: May. 9, 2001

Posts: 1295

Location: Lake County, IL
#168

Feb. 23, 2004, 08:55 AM

Yeah--some guy picked the horses up at the airport and had 14 of them in the van. He was drunk (literally) and crashed the van. I was talking to one of the vets on the scene and saw the pictures she took.

The side of the van peeled off when it skidded and the two that died had broken backs. The others seem OK now.

The vet did say that after all of the ordeal these things had been through, she is sold on a bombproof one because they all walked back on to another trailer to go to the horse hospital and have been behaving perfectly. She couldn't believe they weren't the slightest bit unruly.

TS Clique*Chestnut Horse Clique*GPA Clique*Amateur Rider Clique*
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Xanthoria

Grand Prix

Join Date: May. 15, 2002

Posts: 3698
#169

Feb. 23, 2004, 09:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
Therese the horses that were imported to Germany Holland and sweden by the droves in 1998 were in general not the breed at all, they were common coloured horses that can be purchased for meat prices. The public was fooled by horsetraders telling them that Gypsy horses are all the same and just go by different names. The Tinker thing is night and day from the Vanner effort.There is a breed and no breed and a trader that does not want the general public to know it or simply does not understand or care themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is news to me - and I grew up in the UK and lived in Ireland for 4 years, riding the whole time - a total of 25 years.

Not once did I ever hear of a breed or a registry or anything more than cobby little horses bred to pull carts and take American tourists on trail rides up the mountains.

I agree with Celtic Witch. Since moving to the USA I understand that (broad generalization) Americans love all things Irish but to take advantage of that is a bit much, and the blarney about their magical blah blah that's laid on with a butter knife is a bit thick for me.

In fact it's insulting when you bear in mind Gypsies and Romanies have been persecuted since time immemorial and here we go again - someone taking cash advantage of their heritage and I am sure the Gypsies don't see much of the cash themselves...

The moral fiber of the idea is just a bit thin...

----------------------------------------
PSSM / EPSM and Shivers Forum
http://pssm.xanthoria.com/
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Uberraschung

Working Hunter

Join Date: Jan. 19, 2004

Posts: 214
#170

Feb. 23, 2004, 09:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Shire:
I'm not sure where you've been showing in the hunter ring. Shire/TBs.... Perchie crosses, Belgian crosses ARE in the Hunter/Jumper show ring. THEY ARE WARMBLOODS. Perhaps you missed them because any feathering is shaved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On another note, I'm just interjecting to say that draft/tb crosses are in NO WAY warmbloods, the same way that a ASB/tb cross is not a warmblood

I've rarely seen draft crosses in the H/J ring. They are there and they do their jobs, but more often than not, they are not competitive. It is not a job they are normally built to do. They make kind, personable, gentle mounts, but the suitability is not there.

The Vanners are pretty. They aren't a very legitimate breed in my eyes(the lack of a pedigree knowing more than just the sire and dam for example), but hell if people want to pay for them then all the more power to them.
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Magnolia

Grand Prix

Join Date: Jul. 17, 2000

Posts: 4178

Location: charlotte, NC USA
#171

Feb. 23, 2004, 10:25 AM

A horse is worth what someone will pay. How is this different from paying $250,000 for a horse that jumps 3'6 or $40,000 for a 3' horse that was purchase originally for $2500? Don't buy one if you think they are overpriced!

I think they are attractive and would make nice trail horses or even hunters for a non-jumping hunt!(less all that hair!)

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.
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deltawave

Schoolmaster

Join Date: Jan. 16, 2002

Posts: 36326

Location: West Coast of Michigan
#172

Feb. 23, 2004, 11:52 AM

I just have a hard time swallowing the term "magical" as a breed characteristic...unless you're selling My Pretty Ponies to 6 year olds.

I want to know how much of this money the "gypsies" are getting...

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equestrielle

Working Hunter

Join Date: Oct. 5, 2003

Posts: 688

Location: Central Illinois
#173

Feb. 23, 2004, 12:34 PM

Seems to me part of the problem is the American conception of "gypsies" vesus the European one. We do have "gypsies" here in the states, but not very many of them.

My impression is that gypsies or Roma people are one of the most oppressed groups in Europe. Perhaps that has changed, but certainly in times past they have been vilified in many countries. They also have a very closed society and different cultural values than the mainstream cultures they live in.

It is certainly possible that vanner and others with the GV horses have struck up a relationship with a group of gypsies in the UK and are buying the best bred horses from these folks directly. However, it is also true that gypsies are known for their horse trading abilties. I guess I after reading all this I am somewhat skeptical of this elite breed of cart horses since our European friends don't seem to have heard of them. It seems to me that it would be hard for a nomadic and less economically well-off cultural group to concentrate on breedng horses and keep the knowledge from the general public, although the Bedouin Arabs certainly did it. So I will keep an open mind but also would like more evidence of these special vanner types versus just commonly bred European horses.
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JuniorJumper01

Advanced

Join Date: Feb. 9, 2002

Posts: 1485

Location: Wellington, FL
#174

Feb. 23, 2004, 04:04 PM

The ranting and raving on this thread is out of control. I don't understand why there are 9 pages of (mostly) breed and breeder bashing. If you have been personally offended by a Gypsy Vanner, then I can understand all the hate.

If you don't like the breed and the price tag that comes along with it, then don't buy one. Don't waste your time being bothered by the "marketing" either, because you won't get anywhere with it. Some of you (I won't name names-there have already been plenty of classless acts on this thread already) have let this bother you far too much. These horses are not being marketed as H/J types, therfore, do not seem particularly appealing to the H/J crowd. Plenty of H/J people on COTH have some pretty expensive horses and others within that same H/J loop may laugh at them for importing horses with such a hefty price tag. But do they care? Of course not, and why should they? If the person shelling out the money for the horse is happy, I don't see a problem.

I hate to sound cliche (really, I do...) but with all the horrible things that have been going on lately, you would think bashing a certain breed of horse would be pretty unimportant.

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Vanner

Training Level

Join Date: Feb. 18, 2004

Posts: 14

Location: Ocala Florida USA
#175

Feb. 23, 2004, 05:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Xanthoria:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
Therese the horses that were imported to Germany Holland and sweden by the droves in 1998 were in general not the breed at all, they were common coloured horses that can be purchased for meat prices. The public was fooled by horsetraders telling them that Gypsy horses are all the same and just go by different names. The Tinker thing is night and day from the Vanner effort.There is a breed and no breed and a trader that does not want the general public to know it or simply does not understand or care themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is news to me - and I grew up in the UK and lived in Ireland for 4 years, riding the whole time - a total of 25 years.

Not once did I ever hear of a breed or a registry or anything more than cobby little horses bred to pull carts and take American tourists on trail rides up the mountains.

I agree with Celtic Witch. Since moving to the USA I understand that (broad generalization) Americans love all things Irish but to take advantage of that is a bit much, and the blarney about their magical blah blah that's laid on with a butter knife is a bit thick for me.

In fact it's insulting when you bear in mind Gypsies and Romanies have been persecuted since time immemorial and here we go again - someone taking cash advantage of their heritage and I am sure the Gypsies don't see much of the cash themselves...

The moral fiber of the idea is just a bit thin...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It IS NOT SURPRISING AT ALL THAT YOU THINK THE WAY YOU DO, AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND. tHAT IS NOT MEANT TO BE HATEFUL OR ARROGANT IN ANY WAY. THERE IS A BREED THAT WAS MISSED in the process of yours and others understanding.
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Celtic Witch

Working Hunter

Join Date: Apr. 14, 2001

Posts: 686

Location: Dreaming of Yorkshire in sunny San Diego.
#176

Feb. 23, 2004, 05:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
It IS NOT SURPRISING AT ALL THAT YOU THINK THE WAY YOU DO, AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND. tHAT IS NOT MEANT TO BE HATEFUL OR ARROGANT IN ANY WAY. THERE IS A BREED THAT WAS MISSED in the process of yours and others understanding.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bull shite.

You are going to tell us that you know more in a single trip to visit "Gypsies" than those of us who lived there, fully immersed in the equestrian culture?

Those in the UK and Ireland who are aware of the US scheme think its bloody brilliant and wished I would get in on it. Sheer genious to use a bit of smoke and mirrors to turn a fifty quid cart horse into a cash machine for the cost of a bit of feed and soapy water.

Susie

Royal Oak Sporthorses
Dutch Warmbloods & British Sporthorses.
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titan

Advanced

Join Date: Jan. 19, 2002

Posts: 1569

Location: Michigan
#177

Feb. 23, 2004, 05:45 PM

Vanner-check your private topics, I had a question for you.

http://www.positivestepfarm.com

Positive Step Farm
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SothernGypsy
#178

Feb. 24, 2004, 01:06 AM

Equestrielle wrote [QUOTE]

My impression is that gypsies or Roma people are one of the most oppressed groups in Europe. Perhaps that has changed, but certainly in times past they have been vilified in many countries. They also have a very closed society and different cultural values than the mainstream cultures they live in.
QUOTE]

That the gypsy are vilified thoughout Europe is FACT. I live in Germany where the gyspies are hated... They were among those who suffered terribly in the concentration camps. They have since been in litagation with the German Government for reparations...

To say that they are persona non grata is a vast understatment. The English have been trying to get rid of them for centuries as well, and the prejudice is deeply ingrained into their collective mindset.

On to the horse

The selectively breed gypsy horse is rare, even among those who originated the breed. I don't think anyone on the gyspy side of the arguement will disagree with that statement. That those who are Enlgish or have lived in England for a while will attest, you can buy a "gyspy type" for next to nothing. No one here is denying that... What we are trying to say is that there IS a difference between those horses and the horses we are trying to establish in the US.

The gyspy aren't fools, and are happy to sell Americans their horses, and would sell us their lesser quiality horses for the same price as their keepers. That is where knowledge of the breed comes in.

You CAN go straight to the breeders, meet them at the fairs and do your own dickering. No one says you can't. And if you know what to look for, you can bring a horse home, cheaper than from the importers... BUT you still have to deal with the importation and quarantine cost.

No matter if your horse is a nag or a dream, the cost is the same, so you may as well do your homework and get a good one.

Now you can let others do the leg work for you... that is what the American importers are banking on. And they will and should make a profit. If you think it is too much, then do it yourself...

As to all the nastiness and breed bashing, I think a good share of it comes down to jeliousy. Yes, Gypsies have been marketed to the US consumer... Was that easy, was it cheap? Would you even be discussing these horses had it not been done? In answer to all of those questions, I think not. Are the people buying these horses being duped? Some may think so, but then those who are spending the money, seem pretty happy.

And if that's the case, why are some of you getting so bent out of shape? If you don't like the breed, don't buy them. Simple as that. In time, the wheat will separate from the chaff, that what those involved in breeding traditional gypsy horses are counting on...
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bfshires
#179

Feb. 24, 2004, 08:25 AM

Hello all,
My name is Jeff Bartko, and my farm is Black Forest Shires & Gypsy horses. We are North America's largest and most experienced importer of gypsy horses, as well as the 2nd largest breeder of these horses in North America. We currently have over 30 gypsy cobs here on our farm in Colorado. Whether you call them Gypsy Cobs, Vanners, or Horses, they all come from the same pool of horses in England and Ireland.
Some which are imported have traceable pedigrees, some don't. The vast majority of imported gypsy cobs, horses, vanners are eligible for registry in any of the various gypsy registries springing up for them in the USA. They are largely not registered in Europe because a) gypsies don't "do" paperwork, and b) papers in general aren't nearly as important in Europe as they are in the USA.
The largest registry for this type of horse in the USA, representing the most breeders and horses, is the Gypsy Cob Society of America.

If you strip off all the marketing, hype, and whatever else comes along with the different names for this breed in the USA, and get back to the basics, you will see why they are becoming so popular here in North America... The Horse. When people meet them, they love them, even if they haven't heard all of the "magical" tales and yarns that are so freely spread about. These horses enrapture people all by themselves, once someone meets them, they don't forget them. People in Europe have had this type of horse around them forever, and are somewhat "desensitized" to their charms. In North America, a place almost completely made up of warm blooded breeds (which includes all the quarters, paints, morgans, saddlebreds, etc, etc, etc), a truly cold-blooded, quiet, gentle, sturdy horse that was bred to love people is something that has been lacking here. What keeps the demand up for us is repeat clients, and people who have met our horses or our clients horses. These guys really sell themselves when people meet them. If they weren't from overseas, or from gypsy breeders, or never had a marketing campaign, the same would be true. These horses fill a "niche" that was previously unfilled in the USA, and people respond to that. What we tell people over and over again is "come meet them, you'll love them!".

We make approximately 10 trips per year overseas to look for horses, with trips ranging from 1 week to 6 weeks each time. We frequently take people interested in this breed with us to meet the breeders and the horses which we review/import. This is a great way to get the real "scoop" on this breed of horse and the people who breed them.
We invite you to visit our website, email, or phone us to learm more about this breed and why it is quickly becoming popular in this country. We will help you seperate the myths, legends, and visions from the facts & truths.
We hope to hear from you soon.

Regards,
-Jeff Bartko
Black Forest Shires & Gypsy Horses
www.gypsyhorses.com
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Xanthoria

Grand Prix

Join Date: May. 15, 2002

Posts: 3698
#180

Feb. 24, 2004, 08:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Celtic Witch:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
It IS NOT SURPRISING AT ALL THAT YOU THINK THE WAY YOU DO, AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND. tHAT IS NOT MEANT TO BE HATEFUL OR ARROGANT IN ANY WAY. THERE IS A BREED THAT WAS MISSED in the process of yours and others understanding.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bull shite.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto.

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