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My fortune made ... easy millions the gypsy vanner way

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  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The same is true of Irish Cobs (what they are called in their homeland) in Ireland and England. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    And yet it's funny that in years of riding in Ireland (many times on horses that look just like yours) I NEVER heard of this breed until a few years ago?

    I personally know of these types of horses being born to everything from a small pony mare to a TB looking mare. Mares that came from the sales or were bought off the side of the road.

    Quiet horses, and if you want to create a new studbook, fine. But the fact remains that these horses were never selectively bred in Ireland.

    Comment


    • Well, I must say this is rather an interesting topic.
      First of all, I'm curious as to how many people bashing the breed actually have trained, ridden or otherwise worked around this breed?
      I've been in the hunter/jumper world as both a rider and a coach. Been there done that with the Quarter Horses, Appaloosas Thoroughbreds, the "Warmbloods" and have made the choice to work and train Vanners. So I think I'll throw in my two cents into the Gypsy Horse Bashing Ring.
      QUALITY VS. QUANTITY:The situation you're talking about regarding this breed is no different then the problems you find within the Appy registry (the 'solid' horses and the need to go back to actually breeding for color!)Or the Quarter Horse and what 'popularity' has done to that breed's movement.(Really, do we WANT horses to trip over their noses as they trot and canter?) We could go on endlessly about the Friesians and the great debates over their registries, etc. The only glaring difference with the gypsy horse is the introduction of the breed into the US in the age of the internet.
      Yes, the marketing on the breed has been both genius and horrible for the breed. It's popularity via the internet has given rise to the 'mass importation' of the horses. Let's face it, anyone can be anything they want on the internet. Putting something on the internet doesn't make it true. (And if it does, I'll make myself an Olympic champion.)Currently, poor quality horses are being imported along side quality horses and are being sold for the same price. The public in general hasn't a clue what they're getting.
      These are problems that come with any 'new' registry and 'breed'. Luckily, these registries are all doing DNA testing to maintain some sense of quality and genetics. Time and education will sort some of the problems out. Every other registry and breed has had the time to sort out the problems.... and the Gypsy Horse breed has to have that same time. Despite the Internet.
      There is a great post comparing this situation to the registry of that of the AKC. There are Labs (for example) in every newspaper classified being sold as 'registered'. Very few of these Labs will EVER go into a show ring and be competitive. Papers mean little. We all know this in regards to the Quarter Horses, Appys, etc. We've all seen people buying a QH with 'papers' for say $500.00. Does it mean that horse is guaranteed to win in the show ring? Rarely.
      This comparison is the same with the horses bred by the Gypsies. There are junk horses which are sold as a means to quick cash and then there are Vanners/Gypsy Cobs, etc. There are Gypsy-bred horses competitive in their respective classes. For example, the BIT OF BOTH FARM in Ocala, FL. Their tandem team of Vanners are competitive in North America.... To say that they were longlisted is quite an accomplishment. Do you clump these talented horses with the grade or poor quality horses being imported just because they were previously owned by Gypsies? No.
      The original importers sent the Gypsy King to Lynn Palm.( The Gypsy King is the Breyer Model and the same horse on some of those "Luck and Love" treats people are bashing.. which by the way are good treats!) She likes him well enough to show him at several Equine Affaires.... She speaks of the breeds' wonderful attributes on the Animal Plant television show. Are you going to bash Lynn Palm because she trained and is impressed by a horse that was owned by a Gypsy? I doubt it. (Then again, it's apparent that some of you have a problem with the Gypsy culture.)
      So I guess what I'm trying to say is just because you see poor quality horses being sold for high prices doesn't mean you should bash the entire breed. (I once showed a crazy Arabian.... does that mean that all Arabians are crazy? Come on, I think most of you are smarter than that.)
      Then again, maybe I should take my little Vanner home from the Gayla Driving Center where he's in pleasure driving training..... I should just go find some more Thoroughbreds off the track and re-train them and sell THEM for 15,000 hunters.

      Comment


      • It is pretty much impossible to understand this breed on the Internet. It is the first breed in the history of breeds to establish itself in the age of this unique phenomenon. Much of what you read is inaccurate. Anyone interested in better understanding the breed are welcome to e-mail GVH2@aol.com for a 19 page brochure. The breed is as legitimate as any breed on earth but it requires an understanding. Many horses raised by Gypsies are not a breed at all. The true breed is legitimate, amazing and wonderful. Just ask for the 19 page Vanner Handbook.

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shire:
          Then again, maybe I should take my little Vanner home from the Gayla Driving Center where he's in pleasure driving training..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          I think I know your horse! I saw him a couple of weekends ago at Gayla, Jose was working him when I stopped by! What a CUTIE PIE! He's going to make a GREAT driving horse!

          "I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
          -Louisa May Alcott
          "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

          Comment


          • Why are the anti-vanner (for lack of a better term) people getting so steamed over this?
            Is it because people with five figures to spend on a horse for it's looks and temperment alone are out there and you didn't get your piece of the pie?
            I happen to think they look lovely...(a bit of a grooming challange perhaps but that is the price you pay)
            Do you anti-vanner people think that the buyers with the money to spend that these horses cost aren't smart enough to get a vet check before they write one?

            Looks and temperment are 'very' important to parents.
            What would you rather spend 25,000 on? A nice looking safe horse or therapy to recover from riding something that is less than safe that you were pressured into buying because the 'trainer' said it would win because it was what the judges were looking for?

            [This message was edited by 5 on Feb. 18, 2004 at 10:18 PM.]
            3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 10582097494459230781640628620899862803482534211706 79821480865132823066470938446095505822317253594081 284811174502841027019385.....

            Comment


            • I love the look of the gypsy vanners. I was lucky to find a draft paint cross that looks alot like a gypsy vanner and because his mom is a registered english shire I could get him appendix registered as a Drum Horse. I thought that was awesome. Not exactly fitting with this post, but I found it interesting.

              Common sense is the least common thing in the world.


              Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/62832282gErEqu

              New Member of the Draftie/Draftie X Clique!

              Comment


              • I've had the pleasure of meeting several of these horses, and all of them were as sweet as puppies and had the action that many of us look for in our horses. I personally would rather pay 5 figures for a horse that I thought had a correct temperment in a beautiful package than on that new truck. To each his own, IMHO.
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                \"Let the civilized world go to the devil! Long live nature, forests, and ancient poetry.\" --Theodore Rousseau

                Comment


                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnoliadrafts:

                  Now I own four, including a proven breeding stallion. We will buy more as we can afford the quality and type we prefer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  Just curious, who is your stallion? My aunt (as stated earlier) owns a GV mare. I'd love to hear about your herd

                  And Vanner, if you want to send me the brochure, I'd love to take a look at it
                  JuniorJumper01@aol.com

                  Pictures
                  Split Creek Farm

                  Comment


                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanner:
                    The true breed is legitimate, amazing and wonderful. Just ask for the 19 page Vanner Handbook.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    Sorry, no offense meant towards the nature of your post, Vanner, but that line reminded me of an old poster we used to have here called FIGJAM. Her screen name stood for "F*** I'm good, just ask me!"



                    "The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor
                    \"It is good to be fine.\"

                    Comment


                    • Quote from 5 (sorry don't know how to do the quote thing):

                      Looks and temperment are 'very' important to parents.
                      What would you rather spend 25,000 on? A nice looking safe horse or therapy to recover from riding something that is less than safe that you were pressured into buying because the 'trainer' said it would win because it was what the judges were looking for?
                      ________________________________________________
                      I agree 5. There is way too much emphasis on TB's and other hot horses because they are popular and trendy, not because they're always great or safe horses.

                      When I was little I used to look at books on "breeds of the world". However when I started going to horse shows and events, I realized that I would never actually see 80% of those breeds. At hunter shows, for example, you can identify all the breeds there if you know Thoroughbreds, the ever present Welsh Mountain pony, Warmbloods, and sometimes Appys, Appendixes and Quarter Horses. Give me some diversity! Please! I got so excited last year when I saw a Haflinger in an English Pleasure class. There are tons of riding ponies and cobs out there that are more sane and often easier to get along with then the horses currently in these shows-not all "hot horses" are crazy of course, but they are "hot horses"

                      Comment


                      • magnoliadrafts wrote:
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                        Must you agree with the marketing to love the "product'??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        Well actually, there are many mainstream products and businesses that I won't support because I detest their marketing and business practices.

                        Quite honestly, given the practices that have surrounded this breed, and after the rude and unnecessary harrassment of a friend of mine (earlier noted on this thread), I can't imagine ever buying or recommending a horse marketed or registered as a Gypsy Vanner (TM). Sorry Magnolia - I assume it wasn't you, but the bad taste is still in my mouth and it will be there for a long time.

                        Do I like cobs? Yes I do. I have no doubt that there are nice individuals of this type and even registered with the registry. But there are nice individuals everywhere, well-bred and not.
                        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                        Comment


                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> First of all, I'm curious as to how many people bashing the breed actually have trained, ridden or otherwise worked around this breed?
                          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                          If you read my post you will see that I am well acquainted with tinker horses in Ireland. I'm sure quite a few others on this board are too. I've ridden plenty in my life.

                          I have issues with the marketing surrounding these horses, and the claims that they are an ancient breed and that they are highly valued in their native land. Simply put, the backstory as presented raises serious questions.

                          GYPSIES are not a big presence in Ireland and are NOT commonly to be seen traveling the roads in brghtly colored caravans pulled by black and white horses. Those people are tourists. This is the reality of life for many travellers/tinkers/ gypsies.

                          [This message was edited by silver on Feb. 20, 2004 at 08:35 AM.]

                          Comment


                          • Posting trot - the movie is The Commitments- great film.

                            As easy going, sound, tough and colour flashy as these newly supposedly marketable "Gyppo ponies"are ( definately not PC buts that what we called them growing up ) what are these newly rich purveyors of fine draft ponies!! suggesting is their intended use - beyond pulling a van or trail riding?
                            Not putting them down, as a lot of great Irish horses have some of this mixed blood, but its not these little cobs, that one sees out there competing in many disciplines.
                            www.cadoganfarm.com

                            If you're lucky enough to be Irish... You're lucky enough!

                            Comment


                            • Silver- (I can't do the quote thing either) Irish travelers(gypsies)? As in the root group of the 'traveler' woman who was caught on video beating up her daughter in the Kohls parking lot? The same group who makes their living off of shoplifting and scamming people out of their hard earned money then moving on before they can be brought to justice?
                              I'm sorry, I have a hard time feeling sorry for medical problems and shortened lifespan of a group such as that.

                              I doubt that they are the people with the flashy cobs anyhow.
                              3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 10582097494459230781640628620899862803482534211706 79821480865132823066470938446095505822317253594081 284811174502841027019385.....

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                Wow, floodgates opened ... glad to see everyone has an opinion. Not the SAME one, mind you, but all opinions are good.

                                Here's mine ... someone found a good marketing ploy to sell horses. Good for them. I'm sure the individual horses are worthy (of something), but I'm with slc in that I would look at flowing hair and colour of hide LAST. But then I'm more interested in how my horse performs rather than how he looks.

                                Cobs as a 'class' in the UK fill the same niche that QH do in the US ... they are steady, pretty unflappable, and sturdy. All worthy. None of it worth tens of thousands. Not my tens of thousands, anyway.

                                The problem (again, IMO) as I see it is that this romance/magic/flowing hair hype will pull in novices who don't know any better. Like every ignorant family that went out and got a Dalmation as a family pet after that stupid movie. Based on no other criteria than colour of hide.

                                Hide colour is really only a selling point if you are making fur coats out of the 'vanners'.

                                Not the first horse trend, and I'm sure not the last. One of the more entertaining ones, though.

                                Comment


                                • juniorjumper, go to her web site at http://www.texasdrafts.com to see her new GV stallion, Clononeen Guinness. I have also seen photos of him under saddle and he looks so cute. I really am looking forward to riding him. Look for us at the dressage shows in the Houston area this fall.

                                  Sonesta Farms - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses.&lt;BR&gt;
                                  "Find something you love & call it work."
                                  Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

                                  Comment


                                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 5:
                                    Silver- (I can't do the quote thing either) Irish travelers(gypsies)? As in the root group of the 'traveler' woman who was caught on video beating up her daughter in the Kohls parking lot? The same group who makes their living off of shoplifting and scamming people out of their hard earned money then moving on before they can be brought to justice?
                                    I'm sorry, I have a hard time feeling sorry for medical problems and shortened lifespan of a group such as that.

                                    I doubt that they are the people with the flashy cobs anyhow.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                    Yes, same group. And if you saw the conditions these women raise children in you most certainly would feel sympahy for them. Abuse is quite common and there are few resources as contact outside the group is strongly discouraged. Remember this is a group who are discriminated against most places in Europe and have a hard time obtaining the basics of life like education, healthcare or housing. Not all travellers are criminals.

                                    And again yes, these are the people with the "flashy" horses. They use them to pull carts or just have them b/c they always have had them. They keep them tied along the sides of the road typically, pretty much allow them to breed randomly and will sell them for a few hundred pounds (about $350).

                                    Lots and lots of riding schools and trekking centers have tinker horses but they don't breed them. They are often very quiet and tolerant (having possibly been ridden from the age of 18 months or so) and are, of course, traffic proof.

                                    Comment


                                    • Wow, just looking at some pictures, and not to anyone in particular, but I can't believe people jump these horses. It can't be good for them. Think of the impact on their joints when they land... It's sad to think of the arthritis these horses might get. Other jumpers and sport horses might get it to, but I would say the heavier the horse the greater the risk. Correct me if I'm wrong though I think they're beautiful, great tempered horses, but how about flatwork or driving instead of jumping

                                      Comment


                                      • Marketing with a vision to establsh a legitimate breed in parallel to what it represents to the people that created it? yes.

                                        A marketing ploy to sell from the umbrella of horses that Gypsies raise? absolutely not, just the opposit.

                                        The effort to establish the Vanner Horse, is simply an effort to establish a breed born to look a specific way, developed from a Gypsy vision to create his perfect caravan horse or Vanner. That vision was born 1/2 a century ago and not all Gypsy horses are part of it.

                                        It is the understanding of the breeds look, the vision and genetics that created the breed, the legitimate and established values that the breed enjoys with Gypsies, the people that live under the umbrella word Gypsy, and the sincere effort to establish the breed as it was intended and with it's magic intact, that will put to rest every criticism, fear, doubt,question or confusion that might exist in the posts of this format. This is Dennis Thompson, original importer of The Gypsy VAnner Horse and major recipient of arrows and hearts SOmetimes arrows that penetrate the heart. I cannot address all of posts at once but I will take one at a time.

                                        CONCERNING THE BREEDS VALUE.
                                        A Common genetically non defined Gypsy horse will demand anywhere from 100 BPS for colts and 400 t0 700 BPS for fillies.This is $170.00 US to $1,190.00 US These horses are raised like livestock and are a commodity based animal that holds no status or pride with Gypsies. This is not their breed but they are a Gypsy type horse. This is the horse that most people who drive the roads of Great Britain see.

                                        The breed is a genetically definable physically identifiable horse born from the vision that created it. These horses will demand for gelding quality colts, approximately 1000 to 3000 lbs. For stallion quality colts 3000 to 7000 lbs. The first selectively bred staliion to be identified as the Vanner breed raised by Gypsies sold for 7000 BPS (British Pound Sterling) in 1992 directly from one Gypsy to another. That is $11,900 US dollars before import and before the animal matured and became a proven stallion. WHy did they pay that? Because they knew this stallion fit the vision they had and had definable genetics that could perpetuate that vision.(the Breed)

                                        Fillies from this category are on average 3000 BPS up. More often 5000 BPS to 20,000 BPS. Based on the more common amount, this makes the average filly imported anywhere from $15,000 US to as much as $40,000 US directly from a Gypsy. 5,000 to 10,000 BPS are prices that are common, 20,000 is more rare but happens.

                                        SOme horsetraders on the Internet are buying from the first category and selling as though the horse is from the second category. This was predictable, hense the breeds name being protected for it's society, so that the promise of the Vanner breed could be delivered for Gypsies and anyone that falls in love with it, it really is that simple.

                                        Please Visit www.GypsyVIP.com The site is an attempt to answer many of subjects that appear here but not all of them. I will be happy to explain why any and everything has happened in the effort to establish this breed which has not been an easy thing to do in the age of the Internet.
                                        Best Regards,
                                        Dennis

                                        Comment


                                        • Dennis who exactly are the gypsies in England that are breeding these horses. Names and locations?

                                          Is the registry complete with pedigrees available online?

                                          Comment

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