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Sticky leasing situation - advice wanted

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  • #21
    One thing I am worrying about is- if D can't ride this mare anymore- can anyone else bar M?
    If for any reason neither of these two could keep the horse can anyone else ride her? If not, she has become effectively useless, and your friend could be considered at fault?
    Horse Selling Hell
    My Writing
    People who think they know everything about horses know nothing

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    • Original Poster

      #22
      Originally posted by Unfforgettable View Post
      I agree with pretty much everything said so far...but have one question:

      Was D really able to ride the horse prior to the lease? If D is one of the terminal beginner rider horse collectors, it is possible that D would fall off of the 25 cent Walmart horse if it did more than jog. To lease a horse out and expect that its training will stay permanently stagnated a year and a half later seems a bit unrealistic, especially since it sounds like the horse was quite green at that point (currently first level). What does D think of the horse when M rides it?
      I guess I should have mentioned some background. The mare was treated like a big pet dog before she was leased out. M has worked pretty dang hard to get the mare where she is now. She essentially knew nothing from what I understood (I did not know M or the horse when she first started leasing).

      D is, uh, not the most athletic person in the world. I can't really judge her riding as I have never seen her ride, but from what I have heard she's an intermediate beginner type.

      I still have to agree with everybody, I think M should get out while she is still only slightly behind. I hate to see her this stressed out and her stress levels are starting to boil over into our friendship too.
      Maggie Bright, lovingly known as Skye and deeply missed (1994 - 2013)
      The Blog

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      • #23
        If M is unable to buy the horse, it's time to walk away.

        If D was expecting someone to lease her horse and yet train it for D to ride...that's called training, not leasing, meaning D should be paying a trainer. Sounds like D is unable to be objective about her riding ability and the mare's talent.

        However, it is D's horse, and if she wants it to be dull and lethargic, that is her right. M should run, not walk, away if D won't sell.
        "Argue for your limitations and you get to keep them."
        -Richard S. Bach

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        • #24
          A few things that sound a little odd here. If D was feeding some sort of commercial horse feed then I doubt it wasn't suitable for cattle - what was it? Was the horse also out 24/7 with D and now stalled with M? It almost sounds like M has moved the horse into a barn which is keeping the horse stalled, feeding it a high protein grain with little turnout and the horse is becoming unmanageable.

          Whether or not D was ever going to help this horse achieve it's "potential" and whether she chose to treat it like a big pet, is totally irrelevant - it's her horse and she can do whatever she wants as long as she is not abusing it.

          Just because a horse has grand prix potential doesn't mean that it is wasted by not achieving it.

          If I was D I would be extremely fed up with M and just taking my horse back. The other posters that have said that M has made the horse unrideable for D are completely right. M hasn't helped D at all and honestly, what sort of person buys an extremely expensive saddle for a lease horse?

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          • Original Poster

            #25
            Originally posted by Kate66 View Post
            A few things that sound a little odd here. If D was feeding some sort of commercial horse feed then I doubt it wasn't suitable for cattle - what was it? Was the horse also out 24/7 with D and now stalled with M? It almost sounds like M has moved the horse into a barn which is keeping the horse stalled, feeding it a high protein grain with little turnout and the horse is becoming unmanageable.

            Whether or not D was ever going to help this horse achieve it's "potential" and whether she chose to treat it like a big pet, is totally irrelevant - it's her horse and she can do whatever she wants as long as she is not abusing it.

            Just because a horse has grand prix potential doesn't mean that it is wasted by not achieving it.

            If I was D I would be extremely fed up with M and just taking my horse back. The other posters that have said that M has made the horse unrideable for D are completely right. M hasn't helped D at all and honestly, what sort of person buys an extremely expensive saddle for a lease horse?
            I am honestly not sure what the horse housing situation is. I think the mare is out all day and in at night. They supplement with a round bale in the winter and they are on grass in the summer. They are all fed Tribute feeds, not sure which one though, nor do I know where that lands on the protein charts. I only have experience with their RBs. I do know that they use Omolene as a RB, M and I were scratching our heads over why they didn't just use the Tribute RB, so I do remember that.

            So in short, she is in half of the day I believe and out during the day on a round bale now that the pastures are done for the year.

            I don't think that M has made the mare unrideable, I just think that the mare was receiving less than stellar nutrition before, and now that she is getting better nutrition her true nature has come out.
            Maggie Bright, lovingly known as Skye and deeply missed (1994 - 2013)
            The Blog

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by Skyedragon View Post
              . . . I just think that the mare was receiving less than stellar nutrition before, and now that she is getting better nutrition her true nature has come out.
              In my experience it's been the number of calories in and the amount of turnout that determines how high a horse gets. Maybe if there were a gutload of worms and a BCS of 2 somewhere in this story I'd think the horse was now showing it's true nature.
              Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
              Incredible Invisible

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              • #27
                It's D's horse, period. I'd be angry too, even if the mare is "better off" with M.

                I free-leased my mare for a couple of months after I bought her to a Fearless Teen, because mare was too much for me. FT did great things with her, but also loves a hot horse and was riding her in such a way that her hotness came to the forefront... not her re-rider friendly nature.

                Eventually I decided that if I wanted to keep the horse for myself, I needed to take it back and put her into "real" training to see if we could work together. It was hard, as I admire FT's riding skills and she loved my mare, but ultimately it was the best thing for me and for the mare, who has turned out to be a great horse for me. FT still rides her occasionally and enjoys the rides even if the mare now seems a bit "lazy" to her.
                You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

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                • #28
                  Apart from the diet, clearly the work regimen has made the horse fitter and a fitter horses is typically going to be a "sharper" horse.

                  I've been a 1/2 leasee of late so I can see M's point. She feels she has improved the mare, made her fitter and possibly "show ready."She's pleased that she was able to take what sounds like a butterball pasture puff and make a nice mare of it.

                  That said, the horse still belongs to D. If D wants her out of shape butterball back, she can end the lease and return her to her old regimen and hope that the mare returns to old quiet self.

                  Unless M can convince D to sell the mare, I'd think it's time to end the lease. It appears that M is a pretty decent horseman and should be able to find another decent ride in due time.
                  F O.B
                  Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
                  Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I agree with everything posted here. M chose to invest in a saddle for a leased horse, and in doing so she runs the risk of not always having that horse to use that saddle on. That was her choice and shouldn't factor in here.

                    I, too, am very surprised that the BO has even agreed to allow M a "three strike" rule. In horses, that can mean major lawsuits or death! Also, how does D feel about being supervised by the person leasing her horse? That would never sit okay with me, ever. In fact, it would feel rather humiliating in the described situation.

                    It doesn't sound like the lease is working at all. And if D isn't willing to sell, and M isn't able to buy, then it sounds like it would be best for all involved to end the lease. I'm sure that it will be sad and a loss for M, as the end of any lease can be a loss of the time invested in that particular horse. But unless it's a lease-to-own type situation, that's just something we assume in going into it.
                    Dapplebay - home of original equestrian clothing and accessories.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      It is clear the OP knows and agrees with the advice shared here.

                      What is also clear is M doesn't have a grasp on the situation, her role in the difficulties, and how she needs to extricate herself.

                      Best wishes that the OP's friend begins to see the roles and responsibilities of each party. Hopefully she finds a better matched lease situation. Or buys a suitable horse. Good luck OP!

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        When riding other people's horses, if leased or training for them, everyone should be on the same page.

                        The horse here is supposed to be fit for the owner?
                        Or was the idea to make the horse a performance horse to sell and so trained for that?

                        I think that the owner may have just wanted a plodding along horse, so that is what the one riding the horse for the owner should do, leased or in training.

                        If the horse was intended for the lessee to show and that made it more horse than the owner can ride, then the owner really can't complain now.

                        Everyone needs to get together and rethink where this lease is going, if the mare needs to be brought back down to a quiet, easy horse for the owner, or what else everyone wants from the lease, or terminate it.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #32
                          From what I understood D wanted the mare shown dressage, but did not have the funds to get the training, the gear, etc to do so, which is why she leased the mare out in the first place.
                          Maggie Bright, lovingly known as Skye and deeply missed (1994 - 2013)
                          The Blog

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            This is a bodily injury lawsuit waiting to happen. One that will involve M & BO. If M is stressed out now, wait until that happens.

                            M should back out of the lease, make the approach as kind as possible. Who knows, perhaps down the road D will decide to sell, and may look to M if they depart in an above board fashion.

                            And a Schleese should be adjustable for another horse.
                            But he thought, "This procession has got to go on." So he walked more proudly than ever, as his noblemen held high the train that wasn't there at all. H.C.Anderson

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Paige777 View Post
                              In horses, that can mean major lawsuits or death!
                              Originally posted by CVPeg View Post
                              This is a bodily injury lawsuit waiting to happen. One that will involve M & BO. If M is stressed out now, wait until that happens.
                              This.

                              If this situation continues it will not end well and what has gone on up until that point will seem like a church picnic in comparison.
                              Most people don't need a $35,000 horse. They need a $1,000 horse and $34,000 in lessons.

                              "I don't have to be fair… . I'm an American With a Strong, Fact-Free Opinion." (stolen off Facebook)

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I'm with everybody else, basically.

                                The lease needs to end. The leasee shouldn't have changed what the horse was being fed without permission from the owner (regardless of leasee's opinion of what the horse was being previously fed). The horse doesn't sound like it's just "showing her true colors now that she's being treated right" or whatever. It sounds like she's being allowed to get away with things and being made to be difficult, whether M means to do actually do that or not.

                                And "mystical bond" sounds a bit too much like the Black Stallion and when I was thirteen or so. And this is coming from someone who likely anthropomorphizes her own horse too much.

                                If it were me and I'd leased my previously-anyone-could-ride horse to someone and after being with them it turned into a horse that bolted and reared with me and I fell off multiple times, I'd be pissed.

                                Maybe you should have M read this thread to get the message.
                                The Trials and Jubilations of a Twenty-Something Re-rider
                                Happy owner of Kieran the mostly-white-very-large-not-pony.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Agree with everyone that your friend needs to get out of this lease, don't agree that's she necessarily did anything wrong in riding the horse properly or expecting certain things from the horse that made the horse unridable for the owner who wasnt a very good rider. There is a big difference in reactivity and responsiveness expected from a plug along trail horse and a horse in dressage training. It sounds like this owner wanted to have her cake and eat it too. She wanted to have someone pay her for the privilege of turning her off breed horse (an arab to boot) into a dressage horse that she the not very talented or brave owner could ride. Because no one is dumb enough to agree to that the owner probably presented th situation quite differently whe entering into the lease.
                                  None of this changes the fact that your friend needs to get out of the situation now. There are other horses out there. Your friend shouldn't feel like she failed-this situation was never going to work out because the owner was never going to be able to ride a trained dressage horse of a hotter breed.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    I would tak the details out of this. It is a small world and the owner could identify herself.
                                    I do agree that your friend should cut her losses. If she can afford it, she should buy a horse. Never get attached to a leased horse.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      I wonder if it wouldn't be a good rule of thumb to never enter into a lease where the owner will have any riding privileges with anyone who is more than one level below the leasee in terms of skill.

                                      It takes a very special horse to be able to handle wildly different rules and expectations from ride to ride . That's why school horses are worth their weight in gold.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by ReSomething View Post
                                        M has "ruined" D's horse. D can't ride it anymore and I'm sure that was the furthest thing from D's mind when she leased it out.

                                        M and D need to end the lease or M needs to buy the horse.
                                        This. M does not own the horse.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          An alternative could be for M to commit to a term lease with a lease fee, and D could use that money to pay for lessons on a more suitable horse. M would have to sell this to D; as she raised the horse, she may really enjoy seeing it compete and succeed, and may enjoy being part of her success in a different way.

                                          This could include having D a part of any discussions regarding feed changes, training schedules, and show goals. Think of D as the manager, and M as the rider.

                                          M needs to accept and be aware that D DID play a huge part in making the horse was she is now as she is the one that owned her in the the early years. I think M sounds stuck on wanting to feel she "saved" the horse or something.

                                          My guess is that D doesn't really want to have her horse back in her full care, but DOES want to be more of a part of horse horse. Putting the egos aside and being respectful of the owner may result in a really good relationship that benefits all three.
                                          Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

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