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To all horse buyers who complain they can't find anything ... PULEEZE!

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  • #61
    O-Mom...where is the Coth breeder's list? I can't seem to find it.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte

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    • #62
      Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post
      I completely agree with MistyBlue about prices. I want to see accurate prices before I waste everyone's time calling. Put on your website. Maybe we will stop assuming you want $20k plus for every baby and start calling.

      And --this is a generic comment, not directed toward breeders but sellers in general -- please, if you don't list prices, do not ask me what my budget is. That is a sure sign that your horse will be at the high end of it when you do price him to me. Just tell me what you want for it.
      Amen I wouldn't waste someone's time calling to ask about a price. You know the saying....if you have to ask you probably can't afford it

      Comment


      • #63
        Thanks O-Mom,

        perhaps I will --- and have been impressed with at least one or two breeders that have come on those threads to say they actually like buyers and that some of the frustrations that come with selling horses are just a part of doing business and being a professional.

        But it is why I always wonder at professionals that use these forums to vent about clients. I understand that the vents from the other side can be irritating and make one want to respond, but the result is likely just to turn off potential clients generally.

        As far as references, in addition to the breeder I last bought from, I have been approved as a foster/buyer by CANTER, which requires an application be filled out and they do check vet/farrier/trainer references. And am also considering that route as well -- but am also always sensitive to their warnings about 'tire kickers' and not wasting trainer's time.

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        • Original Poster

          #64
          Originally posted by MistyBlue View Post
          O-Mom...where is the Coth breeder's list? I can't seem to find it.

          Here you go ... http://www.sonestafarms.com/COTH Sonesta was kind enough to compile it!!!

          THANKS SONESTA!!!
          "For God hates utterly
          The bray of bragging tongues."
          Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

          Comment


          • #65
            It's not a mindset, it's a fact.

            Price, registration and breeding do not guarantee a "quality" horse. Look at what has happened to some lines in the QH and TB world. There are a ton of registered, "well bred" horses out there with genetic diseases and conformation issues. A well trained grade horse with a great temperament and adequate conformation is a much more valuable horse that a QH or TB or whatever with a great pedigree that no one can ride or even get near!

            Originally posted by 7HL View Post
            ...Plus there is the mindset that a non-registered, grade horse, purchased at a very low price, is just as good as, a higher priced, well bred, registered horse.
            "Riding a horse doesn't make you a Horseman. Many non-horsemen ride, many real horsemen do not ride. To be a Horseman, you must prove yourself of value to the horse."

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Spoilsport View Post

              If you market horses professionally and honestly, and price them realistically, they will sell. The nice horses are out there. The problem for the buyer is sifting through all the other ads to find them
              Yes!

              Comment


              • #67
                I think MistyBlue and some others said it best - if horsepeople treated it like a business, then they would probably have a much easier time dealing with the buyers.

                FWIW, most people buying horses don't have the time to look up, call & negotiate with 25 farms nearest them. If I could go to a website & look at a list of horses, see recent pics & videos & get a general sense of prices, I'm probably going to pick up the phone and call. If I go to your website & see no recent pics, videos & I have to guess the prices, guess what - the chances of me calling you are somewhere between slim & none.

                I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who think the onus is on the buyer to do all the leg work. It's NOT. No other business sits back, does little to no advertising and then questions why people don't come to buy. They're CUSTOMERS!

                And if you are a breeder & selling to h/j people - 99% of them are going to be buying on their trainer's recommendations. Why aren't breeders reaching out & developing relationships with trainers to showcase their horses? Start building a pipeline & relationships so when Annie Ammie is ready to buy, Tammy Trainer knows who to contact.

                And also - and I know this has been said over & over - most ammies proably aren't going to buy a foal, esp your 15K baby. I know breeding is expensive, I get it. But guess what - by the time I buy your foal, wait 3-4 years for it to grow up (and am paying hefty board, training & whatever else bills the entire time), I've spent a fortune without ANY guarantee of whether the foal has a lick of talent. Or I can go out & spend less money on a going horse. Which do you think most of us will do?
                Visit us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/ranchopampa or our website at www.ranchopampa.com

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Jeff Wolf View Post
                  It's not a mindset, it's a fact.

                  Price, registration and breeding do not guarantee a "quality" horse...that no one can ride or even get near!
                  Agreed and you should know!
                  The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    We've removed a number of posts containing specific info on horses available for sale or wanted in order to comply with the no-advertising policy.

                    Please avoid providing this type of specific info on sale horses in future posts.

                    Thanks,
                    Mod 1

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      There's are a couple of reasons that I don't look at breeder's farms first.....

                      The biggest reason is that they generally price the youngsters at a price that reflects what they expect them to be able to do. I've been looking for a 3ish warmblood as a Young Jumper/GP jumper prospect for about 6 months now. I've looked at a bunch of different horses at various ages (all unbroke), different heights, colors, and just about every other variation you can find. The breeders I've talked to have the majority of their babies priced pretty high for the current market. $25,000-$45,000 for an unbroke 2 or 3yo (some with phenomenal bloodlines, some not so much) that MIGHT be able to compete in the big jumpers? Yikes....there sure are a LOT of obstacles to overcome before making it as a big jumper (no pun intended). I've been finding competitive level 5/6 horses for sale at those prices.....guess which I'd rather buy if I'm going to spend that kind of money? And I'm not saying that some of those horses aren't worth that (and eventually much much more), just that I'd rather take my chances on the 3yo I find on dreamhorse for $5000 that has perhaps more dubious bloodlines, but has the conformation and the looks to accomplish what I need (whether it's as a hunter or jumper prospect).

                      And I've found VERY FEW breeders who are willing to seriously negotiate on their babies. Granted, I'm no "breeder expert," but I'm just not seeing much wiggle room. If I'm looking to get a "deal" I'd rather take my chances with a desperate seller who NEEDS to sell the horse. Either that or visit a TB breeding farm where they've always got a lot of racing culls or youngsters that just aren't going to cut it on the track.

                      The other big reason I don't go straight to breeding farms is that I do the majority of my "weeding out" (or perhaps "prospect list building" is a better way to put it) online. If the farm doesn't have an updated website I'm not interested in wasting my time chasing information. And perhaps more importantly, I want to see a lot of different horses at once....hence why I spend time on websites like warmbloods-for-sale.com and dreamhorse.com. If there's a link to a breeder's farm I ALWAYS take a look at what they've got. I'm surprised, though, by how many breeding farms don't have websites....seems like an obvious marketing tool in this day and age.

                      Now I will say again that I'm looking for a big jumper prospect which is clearly a different market than that of amateur-proof horses or trail horses. And I've been absolutely talking to breeding farms because they do have some amazing prospects (incidentally, I've come across a lot of nice amateur-proof ones for a lot less than they would be out of trainer's barns). And I just had an offer accepted by a breeder for one of her babies....I just hope that I don't regret spending the [comparatively huge] amount of money on her versus the couple of thousand I spent on my AO jumper and my OTTB AO jumper prospect (both of whom were most definitely not breeding farm purchases!).

                      Anyhow, now that I've written a novel, I just want to say that you have some good points Oldenburg Mom, it's just that it's often hard to know who the breeding farms are if you're not overly familiar with the market in any given area. And yes, you could call one and ask for others, but that sure is a lot more work than visiting a single website.....especially if you're not looking for a particular breed.
                      __________________________________
                      Flying F Sport Horses
                      Horses in the NW

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #71
                        Originally posted by nycjumper View Post
                        And if you are a breeder & selling to h/j people - 99% of them are going to be buying on their trainer's recommendations. Why aren't breeders reaching out & developing relationships with trainers to showcase their horses? Start building a pipeline & relationships so when Annie Ammie is ready to buy, Tammy Trainer knows who to contact.
                        I don't know about anyone else, but I've had my fill of h/j trainers—most of the ones I've met are saying things like "you can't ride the papers." I cannot tell you how many times I've heard the h/j folks say that.

                        The fact of the matter is, of COURSE you ride the papers...not literally of course () but most assuredly, figuratively. Dr. Ludwig Christmann, of the Hanoverian Verband, goes into great detail: http://www.hanoverian.com/ludwigherit.html.

                        And I'm seeing this specifically—not just academically from a paper some guy has written—with a horse that has exclusive h/j bloodlines: we put him in the ring with a solitary jump, after keeping him away from jumping for the better part of 7 months. He got so excited when he went into the ring he was almost wiggling with delight because he was bred for this.

                        That does not mean that an ottb, or a grade horse, is going to be a piece of crap—it happens all the time! Your chances of finding something outstanding, from a breeder, however, are much more likely. But you'll never know unless you CALL them!

                        Originally posted by PNWjumper View Post
                        And I've found VERY FEW breeders who are willing to seriously negotiate on their babies. Granted, I'm no "breeder expert," but I'm just not seeing much wiggle room.
                        I will say this again and again and again, because it's so important. If you are looking for a baby/youngster you're just going to flip, I agree. I don't think you're going to find much. I do not want my beloved babies to go to someone that's just going to try and make a few bucks (not that there's anything wrong with that...and I really MEAN that!) Some breeders don't care. Generally speaking I think the home means more than almost anything else to the breeders I know.
                        "For God hates utterly
                        The bray of bragging tongues."
                        Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I don't know about anyone else, but I've had my fill of h/j trainers—most of the ones I've met are saying things like "you can't ride the papers." I cannot tell you how many times I've heard the h/j folks say that.

                          The fact of the matter is, of COURSE you ride the papers...not literally of course
                          It is true with lots of other disciplines as well. Breeding is important!


                          That does not mean that an ottb, or a grade horse, is going to be a piece of crap—it happens all the time! Your chances of finding something outstanding, from a breeder, however, are much more likely. But you'll never know unless you CALL them!
                          Very true.



                          Here's where I believe the problem comes in. They do have this mindset that they can get something for nothing. They want the deal to end all deals and because they have heard that you don't need to spend lots of money to get a quality horse. There are countless stories of free horses and low cost horses being such great horses. They start looking for horses with that in mind.

                          I honestly believe that because some can buy horses at such an inexpensive, cheap price, that we have downgraded horse ownership. We have given the impression that horse ownership doesn't require a financial committment and can be done on the cheap. There are some that own horses that shouldn't.


                          Generally speaking I think the home means more than almost anything else to the breeders I know.
                          Absolutely and by finding a quality home they know that their breed of choice will continue to grow.
                          Last edited by 7HL; Jun. 30, 2008, 01:27 PM.
                          The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            OM - you may have had your fill with h/j trainers but the fact remains, no one in a show barn is going to buy a prospect without their trainer. If they did, they wouldn't be in that barn for long. You can't change that so it would behoove the breeders to start working with the trainers.
                            Visit us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/ranchopampa or our website at www.ranchopampa.com

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                            • #74
                              Just talked to a friend of mine who just sold a couple horses at the sale at Frying Pan Park. She said the horses were going for a song and there were a lot of no sales. Well-bred horses with show records from Wellington, Culpepper, lots of A shows were lucky to get $2k. Warmbloods, thoroughbreds, didn't matter - NO ONE was spending any money. Packers, been there done that were selling for $4-600. She said the market's definitely "in the tank". Her horses sold for less than the stud fee AND some asshat stole $350. cash out of her truck. Just to add insult to injury. She said they probably bought a horse with it!
                              In an age when scientists are creating artificial intelligence, too many of our educational institutions seem to be creating artificial stupidity.—Thomas Sowell, Is Thinking Obsolete?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by nycjumper View Post
                                OM - you may have had your fill with h/j trainers but the fact remains, no one in a show barn is going to buy a prospect without their trainer. If they did, they wouldn't be in that barn for long. You can't change that so it would behoove the breeders to start working with the trainers.
                                Hmm - well I think that may depend. I bought my last horse w/out much input from the trainer. I did describe him to her and let her know his history, showed her a short sales video (brief but included transition from trot to canter both directions, lead change both directions and jumping small verticals both directions).

                                He has (was? I sold him to another family in the barn for thier girls) the perfect horse for me after a riding sabbatical. Super good guy, solid citizen and listens.

                                Next year I plan on buying a more long term horse. I rather like project horses and my trainer and I are working on building my skills to make that a better fit. So I eventually will be in the market, just not until next summer/fall. And I will definately look at what is available from breeders. But I will be using more of my trainers time to evaluate any prospects.
                                Last edited by lesyl; Jun. 30, 2008, 01:59 PM. Reason: clarity clarity clarity or at least I hope I added some to the post

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                                • #76
                                  We're doing the first part, struggling with the second. But it's ok. They can stay with us forever
                                  Then speaking as a breeder how do you have your horses priced? Are letting the prevailing market price your horses? Are your horses registered, and how does that play into your pricing? Are you listing them fors sale in local papers, online or trade publications? Have you had much success in selling any of your horses?
                                  The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings.

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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by nycjumper View Post
                                    OM - you may have had your fill with h/j trainers but the fact remains, no one in a show barn is going to buy a prospect without their trainer. If they did, they wouldn't be in that barn for long. You can't change that so it would behoove the breeders to start working with the trainers.
                                    I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
                                    "For God hates utterly
                                    The bray of bragging tongues."
                                    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom View Post
                                      I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

                                      How richly ironic! OP starts provocatively-titled thread asking why buyers & sellers don't hook up. OP gets inputs from buyers. OP says "tough."
                                      Last edited by Spoilsport; Jun. 30, 2008, 03:50 PM.

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                                      • Original Poster

                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by Spoilsport View Post
                                        How richly ironic! OP starts provocatively-titled thread asking why buyers & sellers don't hook up. OP gets inputs from buyers. OP says "tough."
                                        You're funny! No, that's not what I said...I disagree with the poster, but rather than start an argument, she's entitled to her opinion—as you're entitled to yours—and I happen to disagree.

                                        Actually, you would have been correct if you had said: "OP gets input from buyer. OP says "I disagree."
                                        "For God hates utterly
                                        The bray of bragging tongues."
                                        Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          I am a bargain hunter, if I look at a breeder and see prices like babies going for $5000 I wouldn't waist their time and mine by calling. I would never spend more than $1000 on any horse (well may be $1200 for a spectacular GP dressage horse ). I give my horses life time good homes but I don't have the cash up front to spend on pricey horses.

                                          Right now I am looking for the right pony, my budget is $0 to $600 depending on training (best price is $300). Yes, I am looking for a been their done that kids safe pony. I can't imagine that cold calls to breeders will produce any results. What does work is word of mouth. Telling trainers, instructors, vets and farriers what you are looking for and looking in classifieds.

                                          What breeder wants to get a call from someone like me?
                                          No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill

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