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I had a training/sales call today and.....You would not believe it!

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  • Originally posted by Czar View Post
    Ambrey, I think many people are missing your excellent point.

    It's not about being financially poor - it's being emotionally and pyschologically poor. It's much more devastating and much more difficult to mend. Opportunity is superflous as they do not have the basic reasoning and stability needed to take advantage of it.

    I volunteer with a program that caters to underprivileged kids - gives them a place to go for an hour and a half each week to forget about their crummy lives. It's been well over a year and I still can't get who is related to who straight

    These kids are coming from backgrounds that practically guarantee that they will struggle through life. They have not been given the emotional stability to deal with things in their lives and it doesn't get better as they reach adulthood. How would it?

    You cannot rise above your situation if you have not been given the tools to do so. With mentoring, SOME of these kids may learn to deal with the emotional scars that they have endured but most will slip through the cracks and become the people so despised on this thread.

    You truly cannot understand the lack of capacity to deal with life's problems if you have never experienced the kind of lifestyle that these children have had to live through.
    I once volunteered at a womens shelter, where a local ( very rural for generations) employee informed me that both her and her boyfriend had informed their children (2 girls, ages 6 and 9) that college was a waste of 4 years where you are paying money instead of making money, and that people who go to college are just putting themselves 4 years behind those who are willing to get out there and work.

    I'll also never forget the letter to the editor in the paper about a year ago, complaining about our local school system. Apparently, the writer thought it was completely unfair and outrageous that our local schools expected parents to be involved in their children's education and to have computers at home. The writer of the letter went on to explain that NO ONE in our county could afford their own computer except the "rich kids" and that parents were too busy working to help their kids with schoolwork.

    The sad thing is that this IS the overwhelming mentality of our very rural population. And these people have horses (and other livestock) in their backyards. Just like their moms/dads, grandmas/grandpas, have for generations before them.

    SO--When these people lose their jobs as local industries close or lay off workers, and can't even find another FIRST job much less a second one, and are about to lose their homes, where do their animals go?

    These people aren't on horse internet boards learning about responsible horse ownership. I doubt they have internet. They are doing what their previous generations have taught them to do, except it isn't working anymore.

    I don't think they are deliberately being irresponsible (by our standards). Their upbringing/culture just didn't give them a clue as to what to do in this situation.
    Rhythm the perfect OTTB;Spock the will-be perfect OTTB;Mia the Arab/appendix COTH giveaway


    • Originally posted by caffeinated View Post

      It's easy for people to say what they would do, or what other people should do, but in many cases, it's a "there but for the grace of god go i..." thing.

      I'm very lucky, in that I realize my current position in life is largely due to... luck. I can afford my horse because I have a good, secure job. I have that job because I have a college degree, which I got because of a scholarship, which I got because I was raised by parents who valued education above all else.

      A simple tweak in my life circumstances and I could very well be one of "those" people that everyone else is complaining about.

      Lots of soapboxes up in here....
      I wouldn't say that luck put you where you are today, but hard work and determination. I'm sure hard work got you the Scholarship to go to College, not luck. Determination and hard work got you through College, not luck.

      I've known many people who were brought up with similar values and caring parents, but *chose* by their own will to take the wrong path in life.

      And I've known people who came from poor broken families who *chose* the right path and made something of their lives.

      Look at the 17 girls in Gloucester, MA who chose the pregnancy pact.. sad, sad, sad. I seriously doubt all these girls came from crappy backgrounds, but rather chose to take the crappy path to no where... little do they know.
      MnToBe Twinkle Star: "Twinkie"

      Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!


      • Originally posted by Huntertwo View Post
        I wouldn't say that luck put you where you are today, but hard work and determination. I'm sure hard work got you the Scholarship to go to College, not luck. Determination and hard work got you through College, not luck.
        Not so much. I'd love to say it was hard work. But it wasn't that hard for me. And it wasn't, because I was born to educated parents. I was reading really early, and it might be argued that I was "smart" and that put me ahead. I did well on tests, but never worked really hard to study for them. I did very well with writing and such, largely because my mother was the harshest critic ever and made me re-write everything until it was good.

        When it came time to find a college, I was lucky in that I had a very motivated mother, who was willing to drive me all over creation and keep up lines of communication with admissions people. I was lucky to come from a very good school where the college acceptance rate was high and so they were able to help as well, and where there was a "four phase" level of classes so my "didn't-try-very-hard for those B's" was "equal" to many other schools' "straight A"

        In many ways I did work hard- plenty of people in my type of situation have been slackers. But so many key things in my life lined up just the right way (chief among them- the expectation that I would do well in school and go on to higher education, instilled by my parents early. Secondary to that, the location where I grew up and the quality of the schools there).

        If a few key circumstances of my life were different, I might be in a very different place right now. And I think that's true of a lot of people (many of whom like to look at others and proclaim they're failing only because they're inferior in some way or don't try hard enough). I don't think I'm selling myself short when I say I'm where I am largely due to luck, I think it's just the truth. I'm bad with money, make poor choices often, etc. But I'm OK largely because of how the circumstances of my life worked out. If I'd been born to parents who didn't value higher education and didn't push me, what then? If I'd gone to a school where it wasn't normal for 5-6 kids to go to Harvard every year, what then? If I hadn't had school counselors who cared, then what? Maybe I'd still have gotten to college, but if my mother hadn't been there pushing me and getting those essays polished, probably wouldn't have nailed the scholarship, for sure.

        I could go on about all the little circumstances that made my life work out (thus far)... but my whole point is that many of us are in a good place largely because of our background and family and circumstances beyond our control. And many seem to enjoy pontificating about what others need to do about their situations without ever having been in that situation themselves. And there's something about that which bothers me, because I could see my own life unraveling very quickly if any of the cogs in the wheel fell out.
        "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

        My CANTER blog.


        • Originally posted by Huntertwo View Post
          Look at the 17 girls in Gloucester, MA who chose the pregnancy pact.. sad, sad, sad. I seriously doubt all these girls came from crappy backgrounds, but rather chose to take the crappy path to no where... little do they know.
          I haven't even heard this story but I know enough to know that a 17 yo girl with a normal, emotionally healthy upbringing does not enter a pregnancy pact

          I don't think anyone truly chooses to take the crappy path to nowhere - we are influenced by our past, our experiences, and our upbringing. All adults were children once who did not have any control over what they were exposed to or what the people around them fed into their impressionable little minds.

          Ask people who make bad choices....chances are they will uncover something in their past that led them down the road they are travelling.

          Well adjusted, emotionally affirmed individuals do not suddenly wake up one day and decide to shoot their entire life down the crapper.
          \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River


          • and it's the horses who suffer

            you are absolutely right. but the people who breed and raise the horses you were called about think they breed wonderful horses.
            about the epm horse--one of the responsibilities of horse ownership is making sure the horse's life ends without suffering, and that means putting the horse down rather than sending it off to an uncertain fate.


            • Originally posted by riverbell93 View Post
              Truer words. There are people who deserve the aprobation of this thread b/c they are shiftless bastards, but there are people who end up with the same circumstances, animals in the same mess, who just made mistakes. The second group aren't idiots, aren't evil, aren't lazy or bad or reckless, they just got squeezed by a decision or set of decisions that didn't work out and they didn't have the money to rescue the situation. And everyone on this thread could end up in that group. Having morals and common sense and a sense of personal responsibilty is great, but none of it is a safeguard against tragedy and bad luck.

              I like my soapbox and it's cozy and I've built a little cup-holder.
              Thank you, Riverbell93. You said EXACTLY what I wanted to say.

              Some of you folks seem to want a cookie cutter world where it's easy to judge everyone, and easy to condemn many. I'm sure you think you have compassion, but it sure doesn't sound like it.

              Besides, I like Riverbell's cup-holder.

              because I could see my own life unraveling very quickly if any of the cogs in the wheel fell out.
              Thank you Caffeinated!

              I might not have much income right now (my clients can't pay their bills either), but I have emergency savings, regular savings, and retirement savings to get me over a rough patch.
              And, what happens when this runs out?

              but being poor doesn't mean you're an idiot and being an idiot doesn't mean you're poor.
              Again, thank you PT.

              Yes, too often it's the animals who suffer. But ignorance shows up everywhere, and rich ignorant people can make very bad decisions about animal care and welfare.

              And Ambrey - how very very cool your family sounds! That blog was really neat.
              "If I am fool, it is, at least, a doubting one; and I envy no one the certainty of his self-approved wisdom."


              • Originally posted by MEP View Post

                And Ambrey - how very very cool your family sounds! That blog was really neat.
                Nobody who ever met my grandfather would wonder where I got my opinionated bull-headedness, that's for sure It wasn't just inherited, it was fostered and nurtured. I was taught to stand up for what I believe in.

                I miss him terribly, he died in 1998.


                • Are you kidding me?

                  Did you know there are people who go to bed hungry every night in this country?
                  tHERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE iN the world FOR going hungry in this country. NONE. If there are, it is usually the result of said person or [ir]responsible adult being on drugs. There are more food banks around, and I know this is gonna sound heartless, but they might have to COOK something! Not ready made pizza or tacos. COOK A MEAL. With meat potatoes, and a vegetable.
                  I am reading this thread with great interest, as in the last year, my income has been drastically reduced. I am not about to go hungry, , and I have had to make severe cutbacks in what i deem to be necessary expendatures. Now, I am horseless, and will probably have to remain so, as I see nothing on the horizon to make things better, but I have had to forgo getting my nails done, [please no flames, it is the only thing I do that makes me feel the least bit feminine.]. I can no longer afford to go out to dinner which I used to do frequently. I do have to cook, and it is a PIB to cook for one. I have NO extra money at the moment, and wonder how I can pay the taxes I owe from last year AND get my car licenced. These are small problems, in the long run, but I KNOW my home isn't in danger of being lost.
                  My asshat sister otoh, is in CA on vacation. She makes less than I do, and is supporting 3 peeps. They had their lights shut off the week she left town so she had to take moeny she was saving for vacation to pay enough to get them turned back on. This is a frequent occurance.
                  I take the best care I can of the three remaining pets, two cats, one dog, and hope they don;t need to see the vet. I had a terrific job, from which I retired, and always had money in my pocket. I am having a hard time now just realising, it ain't gonna be like that no mo'.
                  I also am NOT looking for sympathy, or pity. I got myself into this, and I will get out.
                  As someone else said, if you are stupid, I guess you need to be tough. Hope I am tough enough
                  Another killer of threads


                  • If you didn't have any food to feed your children tonight, would you know where to go?

                    If you had no car, would you know how to get there?

                    Regardless of WHY people go hungry, here is a recap of the statistics:
                    • 35.5 million people lived in households considered to be food insecure.
                    • Of these 35.5 million, 22.9 million are adults (10.4 percent of all adults) and 12.6 million are children (17.2 percent of all children).
                    • The number of people in the worst-off households increased to 11.1 from 10.8 in 2005. This increase in the number of people in the worst-off category is consistent with other studies and the Census Bureau poverty data, which show worsening conditions for the poorest Americans.
                    • Black (21.8 percent) and Hispanic (19.5 percent) households experienced food insecurity at far higher rates than the national average.
                    • The ten states with the highest food insecurity rates in 2006 were Mississippi, New Mexico, Texas, South Carolina, Oklahoma, Utah, Louisiana, Arkansas, Kentucky, and Arizona.



                    • Originally posted by Ambrey View Post
                      Regardless of WHY people go hungry, here is a recap of the statistics:
                      • 35.5 million people lived in households considered to be food insecure.
                      Honest question, but what does "food insecure" mean? Who decides who is or isn't "food insecure"?
                      Veterinarians for Equine Welfare


                      • ih answer to your last post,

                        I do not have the stats at my finger tips, however, I do know that summerschool is commonplace now, but back when I went, [when dinosaurs roamed the earth,] it was because you had FAILED the class! Of course, they don't fail anymore but that is another subject. My point in bringing this up is the school lunch program. I have heard from countless parents about how the local district encourages participation in free lunch program, because if more kids "need" free lunches, schools get more money. In fact, that is why my niece is teaching summerschool, and her daughter is being PAID to go! [Child is a prodigy, certainly isn't struggling.] There may be people who are hungry, but WHY are they hungry? I can look in my pantry, and think, there's nothing to eat, and while it looked palatable in the store, somehow it doesn't look edible at home. Why are these people hungry? There are hard luck cases, and I am for helping people, but I tell you, every day, I see a couple of guys sitting at the entrance to the freeway when I am going to my so unfulfilling job, and they are BEGGING. There is a car parked nearby that isn't there when they are gone! People stop traffic to give them money, and I want to run them down! /what in the world ever happened to the concept of shame!!!!
                        The local paper did a story on panhandlers in a toney area of town a couple of years ago, and they admitted they make a nice income tax free!
                        Again I ask, why are these people hungry? Do they have 3,4,5 kids? Different fathers? Do money from any of them? Hungry?
                        Another killer of threads


                        • MayS...Food Insecurity is determined by the general public. The Census Bureau sent out questionnaires to the masses and asked if any felt food insecure at some point during the last year. Food Insecure definition is if people feel they either do not have enough food in the house ~or~ if they feel they don't have quality food in the house as opposed to quantity. Low Food Insecurity means people who aren't comfortable with the food they have available to them but haven't felt hunger...Extremely Low Food Insecurity if the same as above but they have felt hunger. Unfortunately the census did not ask if this was a chronic issue...only if people sometimes feel this way. Here's the full article:


                          FWIW...there are way too many hungry people in this country. The census bureau reports can only be accurate if everyone who replied to them were truthful and fully understood the question. But thee are still way too many hungry people in this country. In other parts of the world...it's epidemic proportions with starvation being one the main causes of death.
                          You jump in the saddle,
                          Hold onto the bridle!
                          Jump in the line!


                          • I live in North East Ohio. If any one wants to see poverty- with horses in the back yard- I personally invite you to my house.

                            Seriously, I would love to take you on a tour. I can drive you down any street in town and point out the homes that are about to be foreclosed on, those in forecloseure, and those that were foreclosed but no one bid on.

                            And then we'll go through a drive in the country. Same scenario, except that the properties will have animals on it. Probably not usefull ones- cows, goats, and sheep will have gone to auction- but their horses, barn cats, and most likely dogs will still be there.

                            I grew up in upper middle class suburbs. I can still remember clear as day my pastor at church preaching that the children of our congregation cannot personally take our offerings to the poor because it might "scar" us.

                            Culture shock? Hell Yeah. But you realize that financially repressed people DOES NOT EQUAL bad people. These are people raised to live by a certain set of standards that, quite frankly, don't work anymore.

                            They thought they would grow up, graduate from high school, get a job, and support their family, just like dad/grandpa/greatgrandpa.

                            Except the jobs are gone.

                            They aren't on this BB learning about responsible horse ownership. They've never even heard the term, and they don't have internet. And they've lost thier jobs that they thought they'd have for life like their daddies did and now they can't even get a minimum wage job at WallMart. So they're losing their homes and their animals have no where to go.

                            I am not kidding. I welcome anyone on this board into my home. I would love to take you on a tour of this county and it's animals.

                            I think a lot of you might need to schedule time for recovery from the culture shock, though.
                            Rhythm the perfect OTTB;Spock the will-be perfect OTTB;Mia the Arab/appendix COTH giveaway


                            • Originally posted by Larksmom View Post
                              There may be people who are hungry, but WHY are they hungry? I can look in my pantry, and think, there's nothing to eat, and while it looked palatable in the store, somehow it doesn't look edible at home. Why are these people hungry?

                              Because they can't afford food.

                              Kids go to summer school for different reasons. If they asked her to go, it might be as a neurotypical role model in a special education class. And school lunches are usually regulated by the state, and the reason schools encourage people to apply is so the kids get something decent to eat once in a while.

                              People do not go hungry because they didn't want to eat what was in their pantry. Where do people get this stuff?


                              • Originally posted by MayS View Post
                                [/list]Honest question, but what does "food insecure" mean? Who decides who is or isn't "food insecure"?
                                It is all explained on the website linked.


                                • Originally posted by tidy rabbit View Post
                                  Are you kidding? I would eat P&J sandwichs and rice all the time, and share it with my dog, before I took it to a shelter. That's a pitiful excuse. Even the poorest of peeps can feed their dogs off of table scraps and leftovers.
                                  I'm so with you. I always say I would sell crack rocks to middle school kids to keep Klein if that is what caring for her required of me.

                                  As for the rest of this...I'm not gonna jump on my soapbox because my feelings have already been expressed in here. I can't stand to see all the accidental children around and single parents that expect their places of work to make special considerations because they chose to be irresponsible. A big F U to them.


                                  • Please keep the discussion horse-related.

                                    Mod 1


                                    • there is no change in the % of irresponsible uneducated horse owners, they have always been there, for some reason some people must be leading very sheltered lives where they never see how the other half lives, it is SO EASY to be judgemental and get up on your high horse when you have never screwed up, isnt it. fortunately there are so many ppl on this bb who have never made a mistake tjhat they can look down on the other worthless peons in the world,


                                      • OK, people, let's look at me. We do not have any debts, so no struggle to keep up with mortgage and all that. That is putting my mind in peace.

                                        But! We do not have any TV at home (enough for me with PC and internet), we have no tap water and proper WC - I bring water from the well in buckets and we have old fashioned loo in garden. And our fridge is over 20 yo.

                                        So by EU standards we are poor as we do not have tapwater, proper WC and even no TV at home. Are we really poor? I do not think so - we have our alternative lifestyle and we enjoy living like that and for sure, there are moments when money is really tight, but we prefer our lifestyle and love it. And the main thing - our horses are fat enough and all vet/farrier bills are paid.

                                        So by my opinion, it is more attitude thing than real powerty that is pushing horses out. Yes, it is costly enough to keep horse in city, but in country side I can not see one real reason for starving horse. It is just attitude.
                                        ** I LOVE PUIKA FAN CLUB*** member


                                        • Original Poster

                                          OK - As the OP I wanted you all to know just a few more horse/human tidbits that have happened in this similar vein in the last two days:

                                          Loading two horses to head to the show grounds to school and two methheads drive up in a rickety hoopdee. As I am loading my gelding (who can be a monster to load if he gets distracted - another thread). Male methhead says "I hear you have free horses. We want one." I look over to see OMG - just picture skank and skanette chapped lips and singed eyebrows mega skinny (hello Amy Winehouse) - standing behind me. Now Mr. "I can not load as i am distracted" Starts to act up. I tell me girls "Go walk this horse". And turn my attention to the methhead couple. I want to be sure #1 i am not being cased and #2 I am not being set up for a law suit.

                                          Trying to be the consummate professional I asked about their horse needs, and goals and expectations(SOP here) - to which I received a blank stare. Then because they can not stay FOCUSED they spy my horse(who was actually in front of them the whole time forgetting how to load) and said in unison "We'll take that one!" To which I answered "Fine that will be $35K."

                                          Skip ahead because this was the never ending story of absolute Amy Winehouse esk methheadedness. I explained I had no horses to give away at this time, but they can apply to be on the list for future offerings(which are very rare). And if they were interested in boarding here, I could give them an application and put them on the waiting list - NONE of which they understood "It costs money each month to keep a horse here!" And I said " Look there is so much financial responsibility to owning a horse i can not even go into it right now. Please find a rescue to volunteer at to help horses in need, or go and rent one by the hour to love. I can not help you here at this farm. I have to ask you both to leave now as I am late for my next appointment. Please call first before you visit here again." I swear they STOOD there skinny, dirty, blinking in total blankness - moles in the sun light -Then left. Where do these people come from?????

                                          Now Sad human note: Friday - camp fire cook out at Horsemanship camp - One camper looks at me and says" My SIL wants my 4 little Nieces and Nephews to just die already because she hates them so much. They got kicked out of their friends basement and they are living in a van right now." Horrified I said "Did they apply for Section 8 Housing?" "No" she said, "they don't like all the rules so they can not be in Section 8 anymore". I wondered why she has so many children if she hates being a parent so much? *sigh* Isn't that just so sad - a parent hating their children so much they want them to die so they can "be free". The young girl expounded on the situation - I was so saddened by the lack of love and care, and the blatant hatred toward the children from the parental units. I said to the little girl who had spoken " Please have your SIL contact her DCFS caseworker about placing the children up for adoption. That way she can "be free" and they can be cared for by someone who wants them." These are babies - under 5 babies - one with a serious medical condition living in a van.

                                          God where are we headed in these United States?
                                          "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"