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Child Labor Laws and Horses

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  • #21
    How many of these farm kids are "hired farm labor". My child certainly is not and there is no prohibition of his working on our family farm in all these capacities. I am sorry, but I don't think the family farm is in any danger.

    And as much as I dislike animal rights activists, I don't see how this law has anything to do with them. We have a long history of child welfare laws in this country based on the fact that children were woefully exploited in the past.
    Where Fjeral Norwegian Fjords Rule
    http://www.ironwood-farm.com

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by IronwoodFarm View Post
      How many of these farm kids are "hired farm labor". My child certainly is not and there is no prohibition of his working on our family farm in all these capacities. I am sorry, but I don't think the family farm is in any danger.

      And as much as I dislike animal rights activists, I don't see how this law has anything to do with them. We have a long history of child welfare laws in this country based on the fact that children were woefully exploited in the past.
      Because the first time i heard of this proposed law it was in the context of animal rights. As in, AR activists were all FOR IT as a means to an end. They saw it as a way to eventually end 4h and FFA.
      People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they're lost.---Dalai Lama

      Comment


      • #23
        The reason these new standards are being proposed is because they have not been revised in decades. Ag exemptions for young workers allow farms to have underage workers, to pay them less than adult workers for the same work in many cases, doing jobs that are fairly dangerous.

        The issue was highlighted recently when some younger farm-employed workers died.

        So the intent is not to end family farming or 4-H. The intent is both to prevent the use of hired child labor in preference to hired adult labor and to prevent children from working dangerous jobs supervised by disinterested third parties (ie, not their parents or grandparents or family friends).

        Regulations can be challenging to write well, and there are lobbyists of course all the way around. Good comments can make the new rules better. Explain why an activity that is beneficial to youth is potentially prohibited. Suggest how you might write the rule in a way that allows your activity but protects kids working for Monsanto.

        This is why there's a comment period.
        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by Bumper View Post
          Because the first time i heard of this proposed law it was in the context of animal rights. As in, AR activists were all FOR IT as a means to an end. They saw it as a way to eventually end 4h and FFA.
          Just remember that that's not the intent of the rule, any more than requiring inspection of meat is intended to promote vegetarianism by raising the cost of beef.
          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

          Comment


          • #25
            Poltroon, maybe we are missing the possibility that this law is part of a vast left wing conspiracy to rid the world of 4-H and FFA. Who knew?
            Where Fjeral Norwegian Fjords Rule
            http://www.ironwood-farm.com

            Comment


            • #26
              Here is the CFR....comment period ends Dec. 1, 2011.

              There IS a fear that there is room for interpretation that would eliminate ability of children to work on family farms or with animals.

              http://www.regulations.gov/#!documen...2011-0001-0001

              https://webapps.dol.gov/federalregis...px?DocId=25440

              https://webapps.dol.gov/federalregis...40&AgencyId=14

              The Department is proposing to revise
              the child labor regulations issued
              pursuant to the Fair Labor Standards
              Act, which set forth the criteria for the
              permissible employment of minors
              under 18 years of age in agricultural and
              nonagricultural occupations. The
              proposal would implement specific
              recommendations made by the National
              Institute for Occupational Safety and
              Health, increase parity between the
              agricultural and nonagricultural child
              labor provisions, and also address other
              areas that can be improved, which were
              identified by the Department’s own
              enforcement actions. The proposed
              agricultural revisions would impact
              only hired farm workers and in no way
              compromise the statutory child labor
              parental exemption involving children
              working on farms owned or operated by
              their parents.
              In addition, the Department proposes
              to revise the exemptions which permit
              the employment of 14- and 15-year-olds
              to perform certain agricultural tasks that
              would otherwise be prohibited to that
              age group after they have successfully
              completed certain specified training.
              The Department is also proposing to
              revise subpart G of the child labor
              regulations to incorporate all the
              regulatory changes to the agricultural
              child labor provisions made since that
              subpart was last revised. Finally, the
              Department is proposing to revise its
              civil money penalty regulations to
              incorporate into the regulations the
              processes the Department follows when
              determining both whether to assess a
              child labor civil money penalty and the
              amount of that penalty.
              In the Federal Register of September
              2, 2011 (76 FR 54836), the Department
              of Labor published a proposed notice of
              rulemaking requesting public comments
              on proposed revisions to the child labor
              regulations issued pursuant to the Fair
              Labor Standards Act, which set forth the
              criteria for the permissible employment
              of minors under 18 years of age in
              agricultural and nonagricultural
              occupations. Interested parties were
              requested to submit comments on or
              before November 1, 2011.
              The Department has received requests
              to extend the period for filing public
              comments from members of Congress
              and various agricultural business
              organizations, including, but not limited
              to: American Sheep Industry
              Association; National Cattlemen’s Beef
              Association; National Pork Producers
              Council; National Turkey Federation;
              California Farm Bureau Federation;
              National Association of State
              Departments of Agriculture; National
              Association of Agricultural Employers;
              National FFA Organization; and the
              American Farm Bureau Federation.
              Because of the interest that has been
              expressed in this matter, the Department
              has decided to extend the period for
              submitting public comment for 30
              additional days.
              Dated: October 26, 2011.
              Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
              Alfred A. Montapert

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by IronwoodFarm View Post
                Poltroon, maybe we are missing the possibility that this law is part of a vast left wing conspiracy to rid the world of 4-H and FFA. Who knew?
                If we think so, I suggest enlisting Governor Brian Schweitzer (D-MT) as an ally; he tells a dynamite story of his days showing steers against his brother in 4-H.
                If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by Bumper View Post
                  It's a law that Animal Rights groups will froth at the mouth to get passed so they can get a foot in the Agricultural door. Well, another foot.

                  I can tell you that THIS part here would be soundly ignored where i live:



                  Most kids here are driving tractors at 12 or so. They ALL ride ATVs on the farm (Hey Junior, run back to the barn and get the fence tightener...). Many many many kids under 18 work at the grain elevators, feed lots, etc.

                  It's called "the family farm (or ranch)" for a reason. The family WORKS it.
                  and none of the things that you say would be banned - read the words "hired" and "employed"! A kid working on their family farm, unless they were "employed" would not be impacted.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    As usual, sounds like someone who failed basic reading-comprehension at school, is made a wild set of assumptions based on their lack of comprehension.

                    Key words here folks - "hired", "employed"

                    "The proposed agricultural revisions would impact only hired farm workers and in no way compromise the statutory child labor parental exemption involving children working on farms owned or operated by their parents.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      What about all the kids, not related to the owner, that work in boarding barns in exchange for lessons etc? Are they "employed" If those children are included in this labor law, it would have a deterious effect on traditional ways of gaining horse experience.?

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Kate66 View Post
                        As usual, sounds like someone who failed basic reading-comprehension at school, is made a wild set of assumptions based on their lack of comprehension.

                        Key words here folks - "hired", "employed"

                        "The proposed agricultural revisions would impact only hired farm workers and in no way compromise the statutory child labor parental exemption involving children working on farms owned or operated by their parents.
                        Actually it would affect me to a degree. I hire kids all summer long to help out at our place.

                        If we think so, I suggest enlisting Governor Brian Schweitzer (D-MT) as an ally; he tells a dynamite story of his days showing steers against his brother in 4-H.
                        Sadly, he's an ass. When my husband and i lived in Whitefish we were renting on a ranch he summer pastured cattle on. I asked him one day (this was 1997, long before he was Gov) if he knew anyone east of the divide who needed a caretaker or had a place to rent. We wanted OUT of the Flathead Valley, it was crowded, expensive and getting worse. He said his folks lived in Geyser and had a place to rent.

                        We ended up renting from his folks for 6 months. Couldn't take any more than that. Nice enough folks but quick to take advantage of anyone and everyone. He's the same way, no one in the area likes to make business deals with ANY of them. Locals also don't like them because they (Brian's folks) sent ALL of the kids out of state for school. Never let them attend local schools for anything.

                        So yeah, he did 4H here...but that's about it. We drive by his folks ranch every time we go to town, his brother Walter is running it i think. Brian talks a good talk but he's still just another politician.

                        He'd make a good ally i'm sure. I still wouldn't trust him any further than i could throw him.
                        People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they're lost.---Dalai Lama

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          So I think there are some concerns, that in the attempt to rein in Monsanto, that smaller operations (including horse operations) will get caught. It's definitely worth a close read AND a comment from most of us.

                          For example, it doesn't affect my kids working on my farm. But it probably does mean I can't hire their friends to work with them.

                          There's a winery/vineyard nearby where the family had something like 8 kids. In addition, there were several other kids who were friends who lived nearby who also helped out and worked on the farm. This is a classic good-guy operation, an organic farm, where the adults looked out for the kids, and many of the kids (including some of the neighbor kids) have grown up to be proficient young farmers.

                          So how do you write the rules to make it okay when the employer is a friend or family member, but still deal with the problems created by some of the arms-length employers, including cases where farmworker's children are putting in labor under less than benign circumstances?
                          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Bumper View Post
                            It's a law that Animal Rights groups will froth at the mouth to get passed so they can get a foot in the Agricultural door. Well, another foot.

                            I can tell you that THIS part here would be soundly ignored where i live:



                            Most kids here are driving tractors at 12 or so. They ALL ride ATVs on the farm (Hey Junior, run back to the barn and get the fence tightener...). Many many many kids under 18 work at the grain elevators, feed lots, etc.

                            It's called "the family farm (or ranch)" for a reason. The family WORKS it.
                            My 12-year-old son drives the tractor, the truck, has had his own atv and horse since he was seven years old - well, he even drives the stick shift, V-8 mustang. That's different, though, from us hiring someone else's kid to do the same thing. His friends do know, however, that they are likely to move hay or feed when they are over here, but they all seem to think it's worth the fun side of farm life.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              it appears it has been dropped:

                              http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbyi...ules-for-farms


                              eta, DOL statement on withdrawal of proposed rule:

                              http://www.dol.gov/opa/media/press/whd/WHD20120826.htm
                              Last edited by charismaryllis; Apr. 27, 2012, 04:21 PM.
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              Today I will be happier than a bird with a french fry.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                The department announced in February that it would rework a portion of the child-labor rule focused on a “parental exemption.”

                                That exemption would apply to children who work on their own parents’ farms. The exemption also would have applied to families who partially own or partially operate a farm.

                                But critics of the rule, including Rep. Denny Rehberg (R-Mont.), argued the language of the exemption was unclear. He said it would be left “to the whims of how the next Labor secretary or the next administration decides to interpret these rules,” Rehberg said.
                                I guess we'll see what happens. When I was a kid I was not working on my parent's farm (seeing as we lived in a neighborhood). I was working at the barn I boarded my horse at.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  They dropped it. Too much misinformation and not enough reading comprehension. Sadly, due to the past and current political climate, Facts has died. http://juneauempire.com/opinion/2012...d#.T5r6wbNSQop

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Weighaton View Post
                                    Now hold on. If they are your own children you can work them as much as you want, right? I thought those were called "chores". As far as I am concerned it is called building character.
                                    Not under the proposed changes.
                                    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Did any of y'all read the proposed changes? Nothing would prohibit a young worker from working with animals. A young HIRED worker couldn't work in the same pen as an intact male horse, bull, boar or bison over 6 months old, a sow with suckling pigs and a cow with a newborn calf. They also couldn't sort animals in crowded conditions like a feed lot. All of those situations are risky and can be dangerous to an adult worker, so its just common sense not to let a young kid do that kind of work. Now if someone posts a picture of their child on 28 year old Dobbin and the kid doesn't have a helmet, y'all all develop the fantods and start yammering about calling CPS but you start bashing a law that puts some safety measures for young farm workers?

                                      Same goes for 12 year olds driving tractors and ATV's. Just because people do it, doesn't make it right or smart. There are a lot of children killed or severly injured each year driving these type vehicles.

                                      Nothing in the proposed law would prohibit farm children from having chores or young riders working off lessons cleaning stalls. Just don't put your barn rats in with the stud horse or let them drive the tractor. Common sense stuff which really shouldn't have to be legislated but unfortunately there are a lot of people who lack common sense.
                                      I'm a second hand Vegan. Cows eat grass. I eat cows.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        I'm just glad that it died. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't trust much that comes from the government right now (and I work for them) I'm one of the many who worked as a kid mucking stalls and is better for it.

                                        Really not PC here, but sometimes accidents and tragedies are just that, and don't need to be rectified by more government intervention.
                                        Visit my Spoonflower shop

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Much above the above is already prohibited under my state's laws.
                                          It's a uterus, not a clown car. - Sayyedati

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