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War -- It has Started.

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  • #81
    bgoosewood...I have an honest question...I don't want to start anything - I'm just wondering...

    Would you rather wait until Husein hit America first and than fight back?

    Again, this is not meant to be condescending...I am just trying to get my mind around all of the different viewpoints here
    \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River

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    • #82
      He was being watched like a hawk. I don't believe he could have struck first. At least not with bombs. Now look at what Bin Laden did...no weapons. THat scares me more than Saddam.

      ANd I appreciate your question.

      I do not smirk. But if I did, this would be a good opportunity. - Worf
      The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

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      • #83
        God Bless our troops. Come home safe and sound to the ones that love you. And God, keep my Matthew safe from harm. Let him do the job he needs to do and come home to his family asap.

        Vermont - where winter riders are real riders.
        Vermont - where winter riders are real riders.

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        • #84
          I'm ashamed of the whole damned world. Everyone is finger-pointing and trying to rationalize why this war had to be. Iraq has done terrible things to it's people and S.H. should be put on trial for crimes against humanity as well as a number of other political leaders. I've always taught my children, that they are no better than another person, only equals. I feel this war truly shows that mankind has a long way to go, to become a "better person" As long as money and power is important to MAN, then I'm afraid this is where evolution of man stops.

          I don't know the solution , but hopefully in the near future, the majority of the world's population , can learn from this war and remember. ( high hopes)

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          • #85
            thanks bgoosewood...I have to admit my palms were sweaty as I typed that - scared to death of being labelled a war-monger and all
            \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River

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            • #86
              Like I said before- this is something I deal with/study every day as a political science junkie/major and I have no intention to get involved in it here on this BB, but Czar, you said EXACTLY what I've been thinking.

              For those of you who blast the president like its your job, you're right... maybe we should wait for Sept 11 The Sequel before we do something about all of this. Burn Bush at the stake! God forbid he try to prevent ANOTHER disaster that would affect this country in loss even HALF as much as 9/11 did. I dont understand the logic. Not at all.

              But please, just pretend this post isnt here. I'm not getting into this.
              Teneriffe Enterprises- NW Indiana
              www.saradanielhaynes.com

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              • #87
                Czar, unfortunately your young cousin could very well be seeing combat soon, depending on what he's doing in the military.

                "I can justify anything!"
                \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

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                • #88
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Czar:
                  Are all Americans as divided as the ones on this board? I would hate to be a soldier serving in your army - knowing that my countrymen are against what I am giving my life for <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  Thanks for saying that Czar. This is the point I was trying to get across earlier. I have been a solider in our Army and know many that currently are. They have to know we stand behind them and support them. You can't imagine how hard it is to be away from your families like they are and not knowing what will happen next or how long they will be gone...or if they will even make it home. It is easier if you feel like the folks back home appreciate the fact that you are laying your life on the line for them.

                  "Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you. Give me a pig. He just looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal" Winston Churchill
                  "No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

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                  • #89
                    Duffy...please ignore my ignorance of U.S. military terminology but I believe he is with the Marines? He was just stationed in Hawaii not two months ago.

                    My God, I don't care who's "side" you are on this is scary! I have not yet lived through a war and every piece of news shocks me. I find it difficult to comprehend the loss of lives in armed conflict - and I cannot even convey how shocked I was this morning to hear that missiles had been fired on Baghdad (not that I agree or disagree). It's just too foreign to me having been blest to grow up in a country which war has not ravaged.
                    \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River

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                    • #90
                      We're going round and round.

                      In part, this discussion appears to hinge on whether or not you believe Powell made his case that there is a connection between Al Qaeda and the Iraqi government. Some do, some (including me) don't.

                      It doesn't mean we don't wholeheartedly support the troops (I certainly do!), or that we are "un-American." We are exercising our *very* American right to disagree with impunity.

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                      • #91
                        But do we all agree that Saddam is a crazy and should be stopped? Perhaps that is the real question?
                        \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Can I ask a few questions of the war supporters?

                          If this war is directly connected to preventing another large-scale terrorist attack in the US, do you believe that the US should pre-emptively attack Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, where there are clearly established and better-proven ties to terrorist training and financing, and which are also ruled by antidemocratic despots?

                          Do you think that war will have a destabilizing effect on the region? Long term? Do you think this war reduce or exacerbate anti-American sentiment among radical groups elsewhere in the world? Will that make us safer or not?

                          Who buys the euro-brokered Iraq oil? Where will Iraq get the replacement parts to rebuild refineries?

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                          • #93
                            I know it's been said before, but I'm not against the troops. If my brother was over there then I'd be even more against war, because I am not in agreement with our adminstration's intentions in this situation. I'd still like to send something to some soldier who's eating sand right now. Or maybe that wouldn't be appreciated by someone like me.

                            I guess my peace loving views come from being raised by someone who grew up with war. My mother grew up in Germany and had to live with being bombed. There are no simple answers.....but I don't think war will make things better in the middle east. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it will be a cure-all for the whole middle east conflict. Somehow I doubt it though, and if (when) our troops get killed in the process then I'll be even more distressed by all this.

                            I do not smirk. But if I did, this would be a good opportunity. - Worf
                            The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

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                            • #94
                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
                              Can I ask a few questions of the war supporters?

                              If this war is directly connected to preventing another large-scale terrorist attack in the US, do you believe that the US should pre-emptively attack Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, where there are clearly established and better-proven ties to terrorist training and financing, and which are also ruled by antidemocratic despots?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              Being a despot and/or a ruler of an "antidemocratic" society (whatever that is) is NOT the same thing as being a brutal, murderous dictator.

                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do you think that war will have a destabilizing effect on the region? Long term?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              Maybe! I personally am no expert on foreign policy. Colin Powell (IMO) is, and I've decided to proxy my "vote" to those that know more than I do. I have strong feelings for AND against this war, but I'll leave the decision making to people who are more informed than I am on the topic.

                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Do you think this war reduce or exacerbate anti-American sentiment among radical groups elsewhere in the world? Will that make us safer or not?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              I could give a crap what sentiment the world has towards America. Yes, I'd like it very much if everyone loved us, but this is not never-never land. We are human beings. Mammals. A warlike species. There has never, ever been a time when there was not war. It is horrific and dreadful, but I don't see our species ever "evolving" to a point where it's not needed. Human nature (acquisitive, suspicious, violent at times) will see to that. I also, however, do have hope that the OTHER side of human nature will MOSTLY prevail over time, but there won't (IMO) ever be a time where there will be universal peace and goodwill forever and ever. We have to accept this about our species, and try to only use it (war) as a means of defending our world from the truly hateful and murderous who make "war" on their own people for no good reason.

                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Who buys the euro-brokered Iraq oil? Where will Iraq get the replacement parts to rebuild refineries?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              I daresay the Iraqis, when they have their own oil to sell on a free market, will find lots of ways to buy replacement parts!

                              "If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
                              Kelly
                              Bonnie
                              Gwen
                              Click here before you buy.

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                              • #95
                                I honestly don't know hobson...but did you happen to read what Saddam's son said (posted earlier on this thread I believe) about this war? It was along the lines of the mothers and children of the soldier's who fight against Iraq will never be safe again. That gave me the chills and if I were in a position to do something - I would take this sort of person and his regime OUT before they did something terrible..that hatred is just plain scary! I don't, in theory, condone war but who am I anyway?! I'm not the one who has to be responsible for the safety of millions of people and I have no idea what is going on behind closed doors either in America or in Iraq. Sure, we would all liked to have seen war avoided for the obvious reasons, but since it wasn't...I support your troops and will pray for their safe return. The President did what he thought was best - perhaps I am naive and I don't know Mr. Bush personally...but do you really think a person who has enough character to be elected President of the United States would put his country and it's citizens, his career, and his military on the line for self-serving reasons?!
                                \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Czar- I absolutely believe that president bush would do that. No doubt in my mind!
                                  *Fire all your guns at once, gentlemen. The Red Sox season starts tonight, and for the 86th consecutive spring there is little doubt in the Red Sox Nation that this is the year.*

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                                  • #97
                                    Stellar, on what are your convictions based, if I may ask? What facts can you cite, what study have you done on Mr. Bush's agenda? To not have any doubt in one's mind at a time such as this is simply not possible unless you are completely blinded by your own convictions.

                                    "If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
                                    Kelly
                                    Bonnie
                                    Gwen
                                    Click here before you buy.

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      bgoosewood-

                                      I come from a very similar background. My mother (who is German)was a child in WWII. She remembers my Grandmother hiding her oldest children in trunks in their attic from the junior SS.

                                      My grandfather fought as a Nazi in WWII--- because he had NO other choice-- he either fought or he would be killed. He later was captured and spent 2 years in a Russian concentration camp. My mother tells stories of her home being bombed etc...etc...

                                      Saying that I feel soo strongly that we need to protect our homeland and us being the strong nation that we are should protect and put a stop to Kurds that have been subject to rape and Genocide from SH. I doubt that many of the Iraq soldiers want to fight this battle but like my grandfather they have no choice... We are their hope for freedom.

                                      I have many friends and loved ones that are Navy ships and are on the ground in Kuwait and even though we all may not agree with war and share my opinion (or my mothers)-- we must make sure that we continue to support our troops and our president.
                                      www.signaturesporthorses.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Wow, how interesting...my mother doesn't like to talk about it and my Grandfather died before I was born. I have always been afraid to ask, but I guess he was considered a Nazi. He was also a POW, but I think with Americans (much better!) THey had two POW's work on their farm, a Frenchman and a Pole (a good place for a POW to be too.)

                                        I do not smirk. But if I did, this would be a good opportunity. - Worf
                                        The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

                                        Comment


                                        • Deltawave, I just wonder if more radical antiamericanism will equal less safety for americans.

                                          I'm sure that everybody wants to be more safe, but we disagree on whether war is the way to acheive that.

                                          Czar, does character get you elected, or campaign finance? How do you reconcile this administration's members drafting Iraq war plans ten years ago with the contention that this is a reaction to the attack on us by Saudi citizens and al quaeda? I have a hard time with that one.

                                          I'm sure that lots of people in the middle east really hate the US. Some of the resentment is based on religious superstition and irrational fundamentalism, some is a reasonable reaction against the west's screwing that region over time and time again. It's not of recent vintage.

                                          On the other hand, many in the the US are full of hatred for non-white, non-western people. I feel like gazing upon another nation and only seeing questions of one's own safety and wealth being reflected is a symptom of racist hatred. That works both ways.

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