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War -- It has Started.

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  • lauriep -

    The US military is good at downplaying situations. They've been doing it for a long time. In addition, I *personally* think that a great percentage of the American public doesn't mind being lied to if the lie sounds good enough.

    Look at the mess in Somalia. How many Americans really knew what was going & the proportions of the disaster?

    If the Pentagon doesn't want something to come out, it won't.

    Also, how much access does the press have to the actual intelligence/strategic command in the Middle East? Just curious. I doubt they're in there in the meetings & such. Obviously they know enough to give away our every movement - don't even get me started on that - but I doubt they're in 'the war room', as it were. Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

    -Albion

    'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

    Comment


    • Well it might not be much but at least there is some credible backlash for this "organization" and their war coverage. Thank you, NYSE!


      NYSE Revokes Credentials for Al-Jazeera
      Tue Mar 25, 5:08 AM ET

      By TERESA AGOVINO, AP Business Writer

      NEW YORK - The Arab TV network Al-Jazeera said Monday two of its reporters covering the New York Stock Exchange have had their credentials revoked because of the satellite station's coverage of the war in Iraq.

      Exchange spokesman Ray Pellechia denied the station's war coverage was the cause. Citing "security reasons," he said the exchange had chosen to limit the number of broadcasters working at the lower Manhattan exchange since the war began, giving access only to networks that focus "on responsible business coverage."

      Al-Jazeera said it got a letter from the exchange saying the number of accredited TV stations needed to be reduced. It said reporters Ammar al-Sankari and Ramzi Shiber had their credentials withdrawn.

      The network said the reason was "Al-Jazeera's coverage of the war on Iraq."

      It said it has covered the exchange for years and believes it is the only channel affected by the new curbs. Pellechia said other broadcasters had been refused accreditation or permission to increase their staff, but he declined to give examples.

      U.S. military officials on Sunday criticized Al-Jazeera for carrying Iraqi TV footage of U.S. prisoners of war.

      Al-Jazeera is based in the Persian Gulf state of Qatar, which also hosts the U.S. military's Central Command for the region. The station has gained a reputation as an unusually independent voice in a region where many news media are government-controlled.

      Ghazi Khankan of the Council on American-Islamic Relations decried the move, saying Al-Jazeera "is really one of the very few independent Arab media, and to cut them off is a loss to the stock exchange."

      He said he understood the sensitivity of the footage of U.S. captives, "but I don't think this is the right thing to do in spite of the sad pictures."

      Comment


      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Czar:
        I'm very careful of what I read and believe as I do not want to buy into any propaganda. I just found it a little unsettling to see that this article was just published now, when it seemed from the article itself that these things happened a while back. I don't doubt it's truth...but I wonder why this would not have been addressed when the events took place? It really makes me uneasy to only know one side of the story - if I could...I would like to go myself to Iraq to get a personal insight into how the Iraqis are feeling<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

        Czar, I'll spring for the passport.

        Just because YOU didn't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. SI published the article now, the accusation was made in May 2001 by Saad Keis Naoman. So for Jacques Rogge to imply it just appeared yesterday is total and utter bollocks and he knows it. Check it out here:

        http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/nea/8257.htm

        and here

        http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../iraq/uday.htm

        scroll down to find it or hit Ctrl F and type in Naoman and it will take you right there.

        Or do a search on Google for Saad Keis Naoman soccer.

        So you are saying that you believe it happened but it's propaganda to talk about it? Are you listening to yourself?

        I knew about this a year ago because I read a lot of international news, and even when I read about it it had been out there for awhile. It is so irritating to have people just negate news because they are just finding out about it now and therefore in their opinion, no one knew or cared about it until it came into their own consciousness. Look, people knew, people cared, YOU just didn't know. Now with the war more people are beginning to look into this stuff.

        [This message was edited by Anne FS on Mar. 25, 2003 at 10:52 AM.]

        Comment


        • Not to speak for Czar, but ..

          Where was the mass hysteria when this came out? seems to be what a lot of people are saying, and, Why is this just coming up again now? BTW, Anne FS, I agree with you that there were many people who did know, and did care. But really, there are a lot of people in this country who never care about these things until something like WAR happens. Which is just ... sad.

          Not related in the least, but my mum just sent me a copy of the article she just wrote for "On Guard", the Nat'l Guard newspaper. It's on Gen. Lafayette, and entitled "Lafayette, where are you now?" Please keep in mind, this is intended for an audience that's not, uh, the most intellectual.

          Just a few interesting little tidbits from it, with all the anti-French sentiment going around right now:

          "Almost coinciding with the anniversary of the terrorist attacks of 9/11, Lafayette’s citizenship received no public ceremonies. A year later, the French government’s opposition to proposed U.S. policy toward Iraq had aroused a storm of anti-French protest in the U. S. French fries were renamed, and bottles of Burgundy and Bordeaux were poured into gutters. Some World War II veterans tried to return their French medals, and Americans asked: after all we had done to liberate them in 1944-45, how could the French be so ungrateful?
          The French responded with a question of their own: didn’t Americans remember that French aid was crucial to our victory in the Revolutionary War? And the symbol of that aid, during the Revolution and today, was the Marquis de Lafayette"

          Anyway, here is what *I* think is the cool part:

          "When Lafayette sailed from New York at the end of his final visit to his adopted land, he shook of hand of every member of the New York militia company which lined the pier. In his honor, the company renamed themselves the “National Guard,” a name which soon began to replace “militia,” and which almost a century later was codified into law.
          As Lafayette sailed away, he took with him a trunk full of American soil to put on his grave. When he died in 1843, an American flag was raised over his grave. The Star Spangled Banner still flies there."

          Wonder how many Americans who are currently running around, screaming about the Froggies, knew any of that.

          -Albion

          'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

          Comment


          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Albion:

            No, I don't think the military was expecting POWs and such this early - if at all.

            <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            So, these members of the military are actually saying they didn't think we'd have any POWs? How can you have a WAR and not have "POWs and such"???

            Well, then I have to agree that the military consists of incredibly stupid idiots. I'm an executive asst. and *I* know that if there's a war there is going to be death and POWs and from reading newspapers I read the quotes of generals saying that the Rep. Guard is going to be really tough, it's going to get nasty. I know that we had over 300 POWs taken during the 1991 Gulf War (all eventually accounted for one way or another except for Speicher). So I guess part of our military just totally ignored this info. available to anyone, part of our military says to itself, gee, 300 POWs in 1991, that means zero POWs in 2003. If that's true, okay, you win, I'm really worried about the outcome of this war if that's the caliber of brainpower planning and executing it.

            Comment


            • Oh for the love of Christ.

              Fine, Anne FS, you're right, I'm wrong, my mother is wrong, her office is wrong, and their people at the Pentagon are wrong.

              There, you happy?

              'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

              Comment


              • Yes.

                Sorry, not to be flip, but just admiting to being very surprised at the discrepancies. Yes, I know 2 Majors who work at the Pentagon. Yes, I am very surprised to learn that members of the Natl. Guard didn't think this would be a tough fight and that there would be no POWs. Granted, most of the POWS are POWs because they took a wrong turn and went where they weren't supposed to even go, but that's what happens in war.

                Comment


                • BTW, in regards to your last post, that is NOT what I was trying to say, but since I really don't feel like going back and putting together an outline detailing my opinions & WHY, just so I can continue to get trashed, I'm not going to.

                  I apologize for not being better versed in clairity & brevity on an internet BB. If we were sitting face to face, I could get my point across. Not saying you'd agree with me, but you'd understand why I was TRYING to say. Obviously, something about my writing style/word choice is rendering that impossible.

                  -Albion

                  'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

                  Comment




                  • I don't even know how to say what I'm trying to say.

                    Look, let's just drop the issue and leave it like this:

                    You think that everyone was expecting this, I DON'T think everyone was expecting this, or, at least not quite as early as has happened.

                    How's this: we'll wait until internal documents get de-classified in the years ahead, and we'll see who's right then.

                    With that, I'm off to play with the new babies at my barn. I hope everyone has a wonderful afternoon.

                    -Albion

                    'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

                    Comment


                    • Article about pilots awareness of being taken POW.

                      http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=24199

                      Comment


                      • The link isn't working, Anne.

                        Laurie
                        Laurie

                        Comment


                        • How rediculous to believe that anyone didn't not know that there would be Amnerican POW's. We still have one we haven't found for 11 years from the last war in the Gulf.

                          Don't you understand there is no point is dwelling on those things when you are the one who has to go and fight!

                          The issue with the Olympics has come up again because it proves the inept and impotent character of a revered association. It too is suppposed to be a protector of human rights, justice and fairness. Like the UN it turns a blind eye towards what is inconvenient and not serving it's self interest.

                          Battle Scarred Veteran
                          http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                          Comment


                          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
                            The link isn't working, Anne.

                            Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Sorry, Laurie. Try www.ArabNews.com and look for the article from there. This site loads very slowly. Apparently an article in The Washington Post mentioned the url and site volume is huge so it takes a long time.

                            Comment


                            • Thanks Anne - apparently, the problem is how slow it is loading as both Netscape and IE are saying that the connection is being refused.

                              I tried connecting through the link provided by Google, and typing the URL in myself with the same results.

                              I'll keep trying!

                              Laurie
                              Laurie

                              Comment


                              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> How rediculous to believe that anyone didn't not know that there would be Amnerican POW's. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                Snowbird, that is NOT what I was saying. I give up. If that's what I came across as saying, well, that's NOT what I was trying to say. And if you re-read what you wrote, you just said that it's ridiculous that anyone knew that there would be POWs. Obviously, it's easy for you to end up writing one thing & meaning something totally different.

                                Like I said, I'm OBVIOUSLY not getting my point across very well, so I give up. I'm not going to get my throat ripped out by a whole bunch of people I don't know on this BB. If we were sitting around in person, I'd be happy to debate this forever.

                                -Albion

                                'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

                                Comment


                                • Albion, I totally appreciate how difficult it is to put one's passionate words into a reasonable and understandable version on the BB for those who don't know you to read.

                                  We are fighting this war, on Iraq's home turf, with approximately one-half the troops that we had for Desert Storm. We are also doing it without the planned on troops that were supposed to be our Northern front, including the 4th Infantry. (GRRRR to Turkey.) The military knew it was going to be tough. To what degree they are somewhat surprised, I wouldn't dare to guess, if they are at all. No one in the military expected the Saddam regime military to fight "fair". All along, we have been told that they would (and have historically) used innocent women and children as human shields.

                                  I do believe that the Iraqi people WILL be glad to see us once Saddam and his regime are totally gone. I find it hard to understand how any Arab country can defend that monster. He's killing Arabs, a lot more than us infidels!

                                  I left CNN on last night, while I slept, as usual. Big mistake. I had horrible nightmares, probably with shooting/artillary going on in my subconscious... In one part of my nightmare, I was over there, with my SO, with HORSES (ie Calvary). I was cleaning out water buckets and feed tubs. Then, the nightmare became horrific, with us being ambushed, etc.

                                  Then, before I was fully awake, I was hearing about the 3 7th Cav's progress and the assault they were going through. I started crying and had the worst feeling in the pit of my stomach, thinking that they were all dead. Then, after awakening, I found that they were ok and remembered what our tanks and Bradleys can withstand and breathed again. I've still been overly emotional all day long.

                                  "I can justify anything!"
                                  \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

                                  Comment


                                  • I am awake every night. My 22 year old son called me two weeks ago from Germany to tell me he was being deployed. I don't know where in Iraq he is, what he is experiencing, or anything. I know he is there (the Army is not giving out specifics of course at this time.) When I heard about the engineers getting lost on Sunday, some killed, some taken POW - I was crazy with anxiety. When I found out that they were maintenance enginneers I was relieved for my child but cried anyway knowing someone else was crying for their child in this country.
                                    I cannot sleep or concentrate at work. My horses hold little appeal for me right now. I know that everyone has their opinions about this war but all I can see is my son's image in my mind when he left after Christmas to go back to Germany.
                                    There, I've vented. Thank you.

                                    Vermont - where winter riders are real riders.
                                    Vermont - where winter riders are real riders.

                                    Comment


                                    • Bless you and your son, Remi and me.

                                      I haven't been to the barn either, although I think it would be very good for me. I can't wait to see my SO this weekend. He lives and breathes this every day, in a much more direct way.

                                      "I can justify anything!"
                                      \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

                                      Comment


                                      • I am guilty of having either CNN or MSNBC on at all times. Regarding the Geneva Convention. You can show POW's but you cannot run tape humiliating, degrading or interrogating them! You can run tape all day long of them eating breakfast if you like. So America is NOT in violation of the Geneva Convention. Personally I think we are way to nice to all our prisoners, if we turn them over to a country where they have at em - so be it. But then again I am all for capital punishment.

                                        The reason I think the media is jumping all over every little thing and making it a big deal is because, in TV this is historic. This is the first 100% televised conflict - embedded reportes and all. That's a big deal for news and personally I like it. Though I keep hoping to see Baghdad in flames on one of these live views - I would rather listen to the droning of Lester Holt all day and night than to hear of harm come to any troops. Personally, I think we should pull our troops back, drop some MOAB's and be done with it. I know it isn't that simple, but that's why I am not the president.

                                        Comment


                                        • Remi and me my prayers for you and your son. It is a very difficult thing and please don't feel guilty because you're happy it's not your boy. No one who hasn't walked in your footsteps can know how it feels. As parents we spend our lives, protecting nuturing and loving our children and then we are all afraid that the big world will hurt them.

                                          Battle Scarred Veteran
                                          http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                                          Comment

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