Rope halters VS nose chains

[Ghazzu]

It would seem to me that if a horse were truly broke, then the horse would not care what variety of headgear it were wearing, no?

[Pocket Pony]

So Ghazzu, I'm curious as to why you're settin' on the Group W bench - whatcha in for?

[Ridgetop Ghost]

I use both rope halters and a stud chain--depends. I sometimes use a rope halter with my walker and he is like walking a cloud with it on--with a standard nylon halter, he tends to walk past you and get in front (he walks really fast by nature). I use a stud chain on my year and a half colt, but I don't put it over the nose. I did when he was younger and testing me all the time, but we have improved our ground manners tremendously, and he has "graduated" to using the stud chain in a less severe way. I put the clasp thru one side, then under his chin across and thru the other side, then down and clasp it to itself--this makes a sort of curb chain under his chin which releases much better than the over the nose way. It makes a sort of triangle under his chin, if you can picture it. If he becomes a booger, the chain goes back over his nose, but I haven't had to do that in a while now. I hand walk him around my neighborhood and this curb chain way gives me just enough control to stop him if he gets spooky, but it isn't so distracting to him that he misses out on all his lessons along the way. He looks around with big, wide eyes and takes everything in and is getting used to scary garbage cans, speeding cars, barking dogs, etc. I think if the chain was over his nose, that's what he would be paying attention to instead of learning how to be a calm, safe trail horse. He wears a nylon halter with a breakaway in the pasture because if he's halterless, he has fantasies of being some kind of crazy wild mustang--with a halter on, he remembers his manners.

I like the rope halters also for wearing under a bridle for a long trail ride where there may be stops and tie-up areas. I bring a lead rope along, and if my horse starts to act silly (which hasn't happened yet, but you never know), at least I feel I have some control and he won't be heading off for home without me.

I also made up a great way (at least I think I made it up) for teaching a baby to tie. My little colt had a hard time with this concept--every time I tried to tie him (at around 10 months of age or so), he flipped out and fought like a wildcat to get free. I always had a breakaway halter and don't believe in making them fight and not letting them get away if they are THAT panicked. We went through quite a few halter straps and a few lead ropes and I still wasn't making any progress. I didn't want baby to mistrust me, and I didn't want him getting hurt, so I came up with a different plan. I bought a 30 foot lunge line and clipped it to baby, then I ever so gently wrapped it twice around a big pine tree with plenty of slack so baby felt comfortable. I let him stand there and get used to it, then I slowly reeled him in until he was standing "tied" right up to the tree. If he felt uneasy, I let him back up and have some slack. Guess what? No rearing or fighting, and baby was standing tied to a tree like a pro in under a half hour. He's been good at it ever since, and didn't even bat an eyelash when I tried him on crossties a few months later. Worked for me, dunno if it would work for another horse, but it's worth a try if a baby is being difficult.

[amdfarm]

I have a couple rope halters a friend made for me, but they've never been on the horses they were made for. I use the plain nylon ones w/ and w/out the throat latch clip.

I'd like to say that all my horses and very well mannered (and they are for the most part)and always behave on the line, but there's probably going to be some instance where they're not and I need control, ESPECIALLY in a public setting.

I have percherons (stallion and three mares) and am 5'2", 120lbs. If they get spooked and decide flight is the answer, there's really not a whole lot stopping them from dragging me regardless of what's on the end of the line. It's my responsibility to have control of them and be able to maintain it if a situation arises. Therefore, I use a shank under the chin (not as delicate as over the nose) w/ all of the percherons. I may never have to use it, but they know it's there and what it's for. They are taught as early as sucklings as to what it's for and that it's not going to hurt them. It's more of a jingle, "hey, remember I'm here" type thing.

Lisa

[helen elizabeth]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seahorsefarms:
shortys - you let your horses lolly-gag????? Heaven forbid! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep! They all go "La-la-la" around the pasture until feeding time. But my mare goes "La-la-la" right THROUGH the fence! Granted it is a mere 14 gague wire and has break-away points, but she is not threatened in the least by it! This time she went "La-la-la" CRASH "La-la-la" munch on grass "Oh d@mn, what did I do to myself?" has nice little three inch slash on her shoulder. *sheesh*

[Heinz 57]

Ok, so I'll admit to being extreme pro chain, but I have a scenario for you all to ponder.

What do you do with the horse that will NOT respect a chain OR a rope halter? Now, I've already been through this situation, and here's a little background:

3 year old paint gelding. Was orphaned, kept in solitude as a stud until 2 and a half, then gelded. He came with the attitude of "I'm bigger than you, I know it, and little you can't stop it - so get the hell outta my way!".. he refused to learn to tie, yes in a rope halter. He would rear, sit back, fall over, twist and turn, kick out, etc. until he was exhausted, no matter what. He'd run people over, generally had no respect. He knew he was literally the bigger man, 15.3 stocky hands to throw around and with good aim...

Thats my scenario for you - now what do you do if he doesn't respect the miniscule pressure of a rope halter or a chain?


DISCLAIMER: This was not and is not a dangerous horse. He's now 6 and very, very well behaved on the line in just a plain nylon halter and rope. No gadgets of any kind were used to "tame the beast"... but the one thing that did is a fair surprise!

[Little Indian]

i just thought I would add a picture of the rope halter I use on both of mine. though Gomez doesn't need it, i like to hack him in it since i like the contact better than a hackmore for him.

rope halter

[Sandbarhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heinz 57:
Ok, so I'll admit to being extreme pro chain, but I have a scenario for you all to ponder.

What do you do with the horse that will NOT respect a chain OR a rope halter? Now, I've already been through this situation, and here's a little background:

3 year old paint gelding. Was orphaned, kept in solitude as a stud until 2 and a half, then gelded. He came with the attitude of "I'm bigger than you, I know it, and little you can't stop it - so get the hell outta my way!".. he refused to learn to tie, yes in a rope halter. He would rear, sit back, fall over, twist and turn, kick out, etc. until he was exhausted, no matter what. He'd run people over, generally had no respect. He knew he was literally the bigger man, 15.3 stocky hands to throw around and with good aim...

Thats my scenario for you - now what do you do if he doesn't respect the miniscule pressure of a rope halter or a chain?


DISCLAIMER: This was not and is not a dangerous horse. He's now 6 and very, very well behaved on the line in just a plain nylon halter and rope. No gadgets of any kind were used to "tame the beast"... but the one thing that did is a fair surprise! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lots of in-hand work learning that the pressure goes when you do yield. I'll probably get flamed for this one, but hobble training would probably be useful, especially for the tying. Also saw a cool method a few months ago where you tie in a stall, with just enough slack that they will feel the pressure, but also hit the stall walls. I liked that method as they would have a tough time getting hurt or learning to sit.

FWIW, I agree with everyone who has said that a properly trained horse will be well behaved in any halter. I think what we're discussing here is the getting them to that point and what method we prefer for a reminder in certain situations.

I think either method will get the horse there, it's just personal preference based on handler experience and ultimate use/expectations (ex. tieing for long periods out on trail vs. getting them safely to the track)of the horse that I suspect determines each person's preference.

Oh, and I love the look of a nice leather halter (sans chain), but the colors and look of the rope halters have grown on me.

[RoyalTRider]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It would seem to me that if a horse were truly broke, then the horse would not care what variety of headgear it were wearing, no? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A horse being broke doesn't mean one has taken away his preferences and personality in full.

[GT's Filly]

Heinz 57- I'm itching to know how you did it!! I love to hear sucess stories about extreme cases such as yours.

If that were my horse, and this is just my personal choice b/c I have dealt w/ horses similar to this. I would tie him up to a post with a 20 foot lunge line w/ regular snap, run it through the halter, over the poll to the other side, as you do with lunging. Then I would also put a regular chain shank over his nose. With lead shank in one hand and lunge whip in the other, let him lay back on it, correct him with a yank on the nose, a "NO" and "WHOA" and then if he still resisted tap him on the ass w/ the whip to make him hop forward. Now most likely I bet horse in question would kick out but that's tough cahones, he'd get tapped til he moved his butt forward. (I'm proabably braver than most people in this situation though) So he associtates either he can "whoa" when I warn him w/ the chain or he gets a tickle in the butt. It'd probably take a while, but it was efficent w/ a TB I dealt with, though he wasn't as severe. Also for leading, I find for disrespectful horses, carrying a crop and a swift whack in the chest gets the out of your space pretty quickly.

I'd be the first to admit I'd whack my horse if he didn't respect me, if it came to a horse being a bully and trying to hurt me then yes, my safety comes first. It's 100lbs w/ a stick that can cause a pinch's worth of pain, or a 1200lb animal w/ teeth and hooves. I'd take the stick.

[Ridgetop Ghost]

GT's filly--I like your idea for Heinz 57's problem horse as I'm pretty quick with the correction tools myself (for my own safety). I'd probably have spent the first several months loving the boy up real good, if he would allow it, since he was isolated as a baby--he probably needs confidence in people before much handiling is undertaken. Poor thing. I'd also like to hear the success story--do tell!

As far as how a halter LOOKS, I'm far too busy looking at the horse to notice the halter! A horse could have a halter made of live butterflies and I'd never notice!

[Ridgetop Ghost]

handling--geez--can't spell!!!

[Heinz 57]

ok, i'll spill.. the only - and I really mean only here, we tried everything including hobble breaking him - way he learned respect was to be turned out full-time with my trainer's old retired 'wiseman' TB. A big 17h old man that doesn't like to be bossed around.. he clocked this little paint a couple times, and that was that. Now the paint (Joe) gets bossed around by my instructor's 3yo POA.

I know it doesn't make much sense that it would carry over from the pasture, but all it took was Bogie to knock him down a few pegs and take away his pride. He still doesn't tie, but hauls and cross ties fine.

[GT's Filly]

Sandi-- Of course LOTS of loving. I always give a big ol' pat or kiss on the nose even if they had a freak out but handled it well. Lots of pats when they stop pulling, and I will admit I will coax a horse who likes to sit back on crossties w/ a treat forward and the command "Move Up". So it's eventually just a verbal move you butt kinda thing.

If you haven't noticed I'm a big advocate of verbal enforcement of horses, it's alot easier to talk to a horse to move over, or whoa than learning to position your body just so, so the horse has to be paying attention to read your body language.

As for halters, I like leather, but they tend to get dirty and stay dirty. Nylons are good for horses that don't freak in situations, and breakaways just seem to slip off my horses heads. I don't like the look of rope, though they seem to be easier to maintain.

[Equibrit]

An in-hand cane is the best thing to use. You can't get dragged around by it!

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heinz 57:
ok, i'll spill.. the only - and I really mean only here, we tried everything including hobble breaking him - way he learned respect was to be turned out full-time with my trainer's old retired 'wiseman' TB. A big 17h old man that doesn't like to be bossed around.. he clocked this little paint a couple times, and that was that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That doesn't completely surprise, although I probably wouldn't thought of it. Good for you!

My trainer and I were just talking about a lesson horse that is what I call "The Enforcer" This horse is second in the pecking order in his pasture, but is so bossy, pushy and rude with the other horses. It's starting to take a toll outside of the pasture. He pays attention to each horse in the arena while being ridden, tries to pull over to them and be the dominant one, etc. Trainer mentioned turning him out with someone who would clean his clock. Would probably do him a world of good...if the two horses lived through it (which is why it will never happen...too much possibility for serious injury).

[Heinz 57]

That would definitely be a concern, RugBug. This gelding started out as a training horse, but eventually my instructor's husband bought him (he's got a hand for impossible horses). It came down to either he was going to learn to play nice, or else. He'd never been turned out WITH another horse, only next to them in the pastures so he could see them. He really just didn't know that he wasn't supposed to be in your face and walk all over you. Now he's a sweetie, and a very handsome one - he's a black and white tobiano.

I've found that the guy that owned this horse (also the barn owner..) tends to handle his studs this way. Barely handle them outside of the roundpen, let them be unruly and almost vicious. His last stud was gelded either last year or the year before, and is now a fair gentleman most of the time. hmph. Most of his horses have that sort of unruly, tough exterior, but they are absolute lovers once you get past it.

[gabz]

Susan P. What I learned as the "trick" is to be sure to always tie the knot BELOW the loop.

so, 2 ends come over the poll, through the loop from the throatlatch and knot so that it is BELOW the loop. If the knot is above the loop, it will pull out every time.

To attach a lead, I use a sturdy carbiner (not the cheapie keychain ones, a real one from the hardware store) tied or braided onto the lead rope.

[Susan P]

I've seen quite a variety of thoughts here but I wish I had seen more people who are involved with natural horsemanship training methods. There doesn't seem to be too many if any people that have said they have tried the training methods of some really great trainers.

I love the rope halters when they are correctly used but I know it's very important to know how to tie them and how to make the best use of them on a horse. I'm no expert but a little information about them has helped me tremendously. I was lost with a new young horse that was a big guy and was figuring it out very quickly. I needed to let him know that I would decide when he was to come with me and follow my lead and that we could get along well if he cooperates. He learned he could trust me and that it's serves him best when he does.

I would have to say that the rope halter and understanding how to use it played a big role in communicating these things to my horse. He's a giant love bug and is well loved by everyone that handles him and he is even allowed loose sometimes. I taught him to stop what he's doing by simply saying a firm NO. When he starts to wander off you just say NO and he stops and comes back.

[camohn]

Boomer has a senstive nose and the only time he rears is WITH a stud chain. For his initial training he did well w/ a Dually halter ): 2 nosebands/2 leads.1 regular and 1 rope loop. If he did not listen to the regular one the other got twanked. He is a stud in a regular halter and cotton rope only these days.