Home gelding laws?

[wendy]

That's a rather silly question.

Even many procedures done on humans are done without any painkillers. Big deal. Women give birth without painkillers all the time - and I would not call childbirth sunshine and roses.

Mares give birth without painkillers - and their labor is MUCH more prolonged and fraught with complications than a simple castration.

If you've got 150 sheep to castrate - and you have to do it in just a few hours - you go out there and do it. You make it quick and as clean as you can because the more you handle the animals - the more stressed they become.

You guys have GOT to apply some critical thinking skills here. The OP's situation is most certainly going to result in disaster if it comes to pass - that's for certain.

But castration of livestock is quick and done in manner that results in the least amount of stress and pain as possible. Painkillers are not without side effects, they take time to work, and even sedation can be dangerous when you're dealing with large numbers of animals, or an animal that reacts poorly to it.

so let's needlessly cause incredible pain because it would take longer to do the job? let's needlessly cause pain because giving birth is painful? where's the logic here? and my doctor better not perform any procedures on me without painkillers.

[cloudyandcallie]

hmmmm

uh woodland, the horse had someone sitting on his head (owner) and then when the vet cut him, he flinched, and I said watch out he's getting up.
so we had the flinching from the knife cut, and the owner couldn't keep him down. Believe me I didn't want to be even at this gelding, my first and lasst btw, and I understand farming, I worked on a farm every summer in SC as a child before getting my first horse at age 10, so I understand all the costs and issues, but..........given all that, I say in my personal opinion, for my own animals, painkillers, the operating table, a vet who is board certified and aftercare as that vet tells me to do.
after all, I had a cat who had crypto and was in the UGA experiment for ketaconozole (all you who have benefited from this drug can thank Dominque the cat) and it caused hepatitis and we had the stomach tube feedings for 6 weeks. She did live 5 more years to be 18 and her vet got his board certification with a thesis on crypto.
so while some of you might have animals as "crops" I have them as pets, and believe in using lots and lots of drugs to prevent pain in them.
different opinion.
and one gelding participation was enough!!!
I figure this nice poster should buy the pony, spend the money to have it gelded, and get stuck with him like so many nice people do.
we're not talking about someone who is experienced here, but a teenager who thinks she can go ahead and do it herself. maybe then she can do some surgery on herself.
like brain surgery

[brokenarrowdj]

We have had horses and donkeys done by a local 'gelder' guy and never had a problem. Many of the ranchers bring 10-20 head a day to him to geld in his chute setup. They can be sedated or not, your choice. The horses come out without a scratch, no fuss, no muss and we have never had a problem with swelling from this guy. Our vets pretty much require that you haul to the clinic for any services and for the cost the local guy charges ($25) I would rather haul to him, and I think he does a better job!

On the other hand, we took two hogs to be cut over the weekend. The guy cut them, and then crammed a handful of white powder into the 'crack' and sprayed the hold with some blue wound spray. It made me cringe when we found out the white stuff was table salt. Eeeks! Makes the chute gelding look great! However, the two piggies didn't even squawk when the salt hit.

[JoZ]

There's a guy at our farm who gelds his horses and mules himself. He is very calm and quiet about it, and takes his time to see that all the ropes are in place and correctly positioned and tied before raising the leg(s) and dropping the horse. His instruments are disinfected. It seemed much easier on the horse than with anesthesia, to be honest. There was none of the labored breathing, sweating, slow to wake, staggering behavior that I've seen with horses flat out and sedated. The horse was released from the ropes in the same calm safe manner, and he got up in a very relaxed manner.

For those of you who say we can't know how much a horse is suffering... neither can you. I'd bet you probably think euthanasia by drug is much more humane than a gunshot. Drugs do NOT automatically make a procedure preferable or more humane.

But if this cheapskate is really thinking about banding OR if the people involved aren't knowledgeable about immobilizing the horse safely (for horse AND people)... then they have no business doing it. Maybe they would partner with someone who would pay to have the gelding done, then take a cut of the selling price.

[Ambrey]

But castration of livestock is quick and done in manner that results in the least amount of stress and pain as possible. Painkillers are not without side effects, they take time to work, and even sedation can be dangerous when you're dealing with large numbers of animals, or an animal that reacts poorly to it.

Most women are given the choice. Some women choose to not use painkillers, because they feel it's safer or some other reason, but many women choose to use painkillers (I did with both, although I tried not to with #2, I crumbled under pressure).

1) We're not giving the animals a choice.
2) We're not giving them any method to control the pain (even in primitive societies, women helped and comforted other women during childbirth).
3) Women have evolved to survive childbirth. That means that although it hurts, we know that the pain is not going to harm or kill us.
4) Every man I've ever known who had a vasectomy has complained of intense pain for days afterward. I've never known a man to volunteer to get one without anesthetic.

Do I think everyone who does it should be thrown in jail? No, I don't. But, I do think there has to be a better way. We get anesthetic for dental procedures, for having a mole removed, almost anything. Yet, we'd do something like that to an animal with none?

[JSwan]

so let's needlessly cause incredible pain because it would take longer to do the job? let's needlessly cause pain because giving birth is painful? where's the logic here? and my doctor better not perform any procedures on me without painkillers.

No - and that's not what I wrote and you know that. You're being purposefully obtuse.

Believe it or not - you're going to eventually have a doctor perform a procedure on you and it's going to effing hurt.

Sedatives and narcotics are not without their own risks; particularly in veterinary medicine.

"Incredible pain" is a loaded phrase. You're assuming, without ever having handled large numbers of livestock or knowing anything about how these procedures are performed, that the animals are being tortured somehow.

What you don't know is how banding is done, how it works, why it works, and why it's considered humane. Pain is not the only factor considered when making that determination.

The main goal of every person handling animals is not to cause stress. The less stress, the better. (for several reasons)

In order to sedate large numbers of livestock, the whole procedure is going to take so much time and handling, that the drug will be out of their systems before you're even ready to start banding.

Banding takes a second or two and the animal walks away and goes back to grazing.

Sedation involves sticking the animal with a needle, (a stress on the animal), waiting for it to take effect, the stress on the animal when it comes out of it and thrashes, possibly incurring injury to itself or the handler, and then going to the next animal, doing the same thing.

So a one or two second banding becomes an actual ordeal for the animal. An ordeal involving needles, not being able to move well, being afraid when it wakes up, possible injury. Many minutes - if not hours. And still - the animal suffers the same discomfort as it does when banded. But now - you've made it a horrible ordeal for the animal.

Good animal husbandry means making decisions based on what is best for the animal - not what makes us feel better or warm and fuzzy.

It may make you feel better if every animal was put to sleep and given painkillers - but it is NOT in the best interest of the animal. Not in the case of banding young animals (species that are suited to that procedure)



Ambrey - you keep saying you grew up on a ranch and yet you seem to know absolutely nothing about animal agriculture. It's perplexing. Personally, I think humans are a bunch of weenies when it comes to discomfort. Banding young animals (suited to it), is simple, quick and does not require sedation or narcotics. For older animals, or animals not suited to this procedure, there are other methods that are safer for the animal and its handler.

[Ambrey]

I was talking about surgical gelding, not banding. I've only experience with calves, and nobody ever used banding.

And anesthetic does NOT mean putting under! It's a small needle with a local to deaden the area. I had it when I got stitches on my finger, you get it when the dentist does your teeth, etc.

Certainly general would be too risky. They didn't even use general for the really nasty oral surgery my daughter had to have to get a supernumary tooth removed, but they did give her local and nitrous.

[JSwan]

I'm referring to banding.

It's definitely not appropriate for horses.

Older animals and surgical castrations is a whole 'nother ball game. I don't know of anyone that does large numbers of animals that way..... that wouldn't make any sense. Heck - maybe there have been and there are no human survivors!

[Tiger Horse]

That's a rather silly question.

Even many procedures done on humans are done without any painkillers. Big deal. Women give birth without painkillers all the time - and I would not call childbirth sunshine and roses.

Mares give birth without painkillers - and their labor is MUCH more prolonged and fraught with complications than a simple castration.

If you've got 150 sheep to castrate - and you have to do it in just a few hours - you go out there and do it. You make it quick and as clean as you can because the more you handle the animals - the more stressed they become.

You guys have GOT to apply some critical thinking skills here. The OP's situation is most certainly going to result in disaster if it comes to pass - that's for certain.

But castration of livestock is quick and done in manner that results in the least amount of stress and pain as possible. Painkillers are not without side effects, they take time to work, and even sedation can be dangerous when you're dealing with large numbers of animals, or an animal that reacts poorly to it.

The voice of reason - thank you, J Swan.

[appaloosalady]

fyi county, my information comes from my vet (board certified and graduated from univ. of michigan) and from my personal experience. guess my vet and I don't give the answers you want. we disagree. on everything, slaughter, pain, bute, etc.

I think you mean MSU. U of M only has a pre-vet program . Just an FYI. If you want to throw around credentials you should get your facts straight first.

[Ambrey]

Older animals and surgical castrations is a whole 'nother ball game. I don't know of anyone that does large numbers of animals that way..... that wouldn't make any sense. Heck - maybe there have been and there are no human survivors!

Cattle are castrated in large numbers with a knife. And County was saying that horses are done that way too. I think that's what most of us are talking about.

[JSwan]

Even then - you know - you just gotta look at the whole picture. It's simplistic to say oh - they all need to be hooked up to an O2 monitor and a quiet, sterile room and all that.

In practice -that's not going to happen. A very sharp knife and a quick cut and back out to pasture. Ouch!

Handling, sedation, falling down or thrashing, 1/2 hour or more in the hot sun or freezing temps, staggering to get back up, having to go back out in a herd without full awareness............

I dunno folks. It needs to be done - and you have to look at the process in its entirety and determine what is going to cause the least amount of stress to an animal.

Pain is a stress - no doubt. However, in animal agriculture - pain is one factor that is detrimental to the health of an animal. If, by attempting to eliminate any discomfort, you cause more stress to the animal - then you are not acting in that animals best interest.

Anthropomorphizing is the worst thing we've done for animal welfare.

[PaddyUK]

I casterate all my livestock with no tranq.

Perhaps you would like to slap your bollocks on the table and I'll whip them off, quick knife slit to expose, no anesthetic, then see how you feel?

Paddy

[Appsolute]

I say in my personal opinion, for my own animals, painkillers, the operating table, a vet who is board certified and aftercare as that vet tells me to do.

I have to say, I have seen a number of gelding procedures, a few of them at UC Davis Vet. hospital, and never saw one done on an operating table.

At Davis... they tied up a leg, laid the horse down on the lawn, and got the clamps out

Some horses were given some thing to mellow them, but for the most part, it was laid down... incision, pull the boys out.. and clamp them off.

After care was to watch for swelling and flies, and to make sure they keep moving (hand walk them if they are too sore to move much on their own).

[Ambrey]

Handling, sedation, falling down or thrashing, 1/2 hour or more in the hot sun or freezing temps, staggering to get back up, having to go back out in a herd without full awareness............

I still don't see how a local anesthetic involves any of those things.

[Dispatcher]

so let's needlessly cause incredible pain because it would take longer to do the job? let's needlessly cause pain because giving birth is painful? where's the logic here? and my doctor better not perform any procedures on me without painkillers.

And females are designed to give birth. No one is cutting and reaching inside of them to pull babies out. Oh, wait. That would be a C-Section. I'm pretty sure women are anesthetised for that.

So, if you want to cut something off, or out, pain relief should be the humane way.

[Bluey]

When we get a load of weaner calves, around 400 lbs, we brand, eartag, vaccinate, deworm and castrate.
We average about one a minute thru the chute to do all that and, as already mentioned, they don't even notice castrating, it is the eartagging that they fuss about.
Since everything is done so fast, the calves don't even have time to realize what is done, are busy looking around and are out of the chute very fast, with minimal stress.

When branding in the traditional way they do in well run ranches, where the calves are done much younger and still on their mothers, they rope them, drag them to the fire, brand and do all that very fast and when they turn the calf loose, he goes right back to his mother and starts nursing, switching his tail, offended, mostly his pride hurt.

There is a little gadget that runs on a 9V battery that you can clamp on the nose and tail of a calf, brand and castrate and do all you want and they don't feel a thing.
Once you are thru, you can turn the switch off and they walk out of the chute without knowing what happened to them.
We have also used that, but there is really not much difference with working them without that little gadget.

Now, if you are talking older animals, very few get to be older and still intact, so that is a whole different operation, more involved.

Since we geld horses generally older, mostly one or a few, not hundreds and they have been handled much, to take the time to do each one with anesthesia and a vet makes sense.

[fabulousfred]

Vets geld onsite all the time. There is nothing wrong with it, they know what they are doing. A private gelding may not be the best thing..I mean it should be a medical procedure and treated as such. Not just cut and run..

[JSwan]

I still don't see how a local anesthetic involves any of those things.

Try sticking a needle in an animals balls without sedating it first and get back to me. Sedation/restraint first - then you go in where mortals fear to tread - or poke.

Older animals - whole different ballgame - pun intended.

[Ambrey]

Try sticking a needle in an animals balls without sedating it first and get back to me. Sedation/restraint first - then you go in where mortals fear to tread - or poke.

Uh, is it really different than cutting it open with a knife and yanking things out?

I'm very confused.