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So much unsoundness in QH's?? WHY? WHY? WHY?!

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  • #61
    Originally posted by chism View Post
    Breeding for current show standards a la "Arnold Schwarzenegger" with pony size feet, no consideration given to breeding for soundness, working them too hard at too young an age. My first horse was a ranch bred, Doc O Lena mare, and she was RUGGED. Sound, sound, sound, great proportional size feet and a wonderful brain to match. I don't think they make them that way anymore.
    AMEN, DITTO, I HEAR YOU, ET CETERA. I grew up with Apps and QHs from WORKING lines and they were indestructible. No, they didn't win at the breed shows, but they could do almost anything and do it all day long.
    "Go on, Bill — this is no place for a pony."

    Comment


    • #62
      And I forgot to add that they're smart too...

      Second what Overohunter said about the cutting horses maybe being too smart - came home today to find my newbie (praised earlier this morning on this forum for his physical virtues and good mind) had lifted a small gate off its hinges to get out into the pasture.

      Going to have to tighten up the electric fence!

      Comment


      • #63
        Let's remember for a second that halter horses do not represent the vast majority of QHs out there. Yes, they suck, let's move on.

        Outside of that, in the riding QH world, you tend to have low-end breeders that focus exactly on what you mentioned - their inexpensive horse coming off as "well-bred," and they achieve it by matching a big-name stud with their less-than-mediocre mare, who was also by a big-name stud and another less-than-mediocre mare. They aren't evaluated for the match b/w mare and stud, so when you put a long-backed posty-legged mare with a downhill, low-backed, tiny-hooved but big-name stud, you get a long, low-backed wiener [dog] horse with straight legs and ouchy feet.

        Look at the Lena lines and think of all the craigslist ads you see for $700 Lena-bred horses. Unless I was getting into cutting, I wouldn't go out of my way to buy a horse from the more straight-legged, downhill, low-backed cutting lines. That's not to say they're not great horses, they're just purpose-bred for a purpose I have no use for and even on paper, they appear predisposed to navicular and back pain. Sure, maybe the breeder took the time to pick a mare that counteracts the faults - all the more reason to evaluate the horse in person, not the horse on paper. A better-built but less "well-bred" horse is more likely to get you what you need than a "well-bred" horse with his dad's crappy back and tiny hooves.

        Horses have big bodies with disproportionately small limbs when compared to other hooved mammals. Lameness happens, but you can be aware of and avoid the conformation traits that predispose a horse to it.

        Comment


        • #64
          Nuggets..you can have cake and eat it too..but you will PAY for it..those $700 "lena bred" horses have "lena" so far back, you'll have to go three generations off the papers...

          you shouldnt breed papers..but papers, IMO, provide an insight into the horse's lineage. Conformation, of course, should be considered..but I always look at lines too. With the specialization of the activities, these lines of horses are known for producing the genetics that win. they are known to cross better with certain lines then others, they are known to produce good open horses or ammy friendly horses.

          In cutting and cowhorse espc, the old adage rings true..cow sense is not trained, a horse is BORN with it. you can train a horse to "follow" a cow, but the ones who excel and are superior are those that are born with that sense.

          So, I do agree with you..but I dont think one should be scared of some of the "bigger named" lines within the disaplines...if one does their homework, they will find the lines that have staying power, both mentally and physically.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by spinandslide View Post
            Nuggets..you can have cake and eat it too..but you will PAY for it..those $700 "lena bred" horses have "lena" so far back, you'll have to go three generations off the papers...

            you shouldnt breed papers..but papers, IMO, provide an insight into the horse's lineage. Conformation, of course, should be considered..but I always look at lines too. With the specialization of the activities, these lines of horses are known for producing the genetics that win. they are known to cross better with certain lines then others, they are known to produce good open horses or ammy friendly horses.

            In cutting and cowhorse espc, the old adage rings true..cow sense is not trained, a horse is BORN with it. you can train a horse to "follow" a cow, but the ones who excel and are superior are those that are born with that sense.

            So, I do agree with you..but I dont think one should be scared of some of the "bigger named" lines within the disaplines...if one does their homework, they will find the lines that have staying power, both mentally and physically.
            A horse may outperform his pedigree, but he can never outbreed it

            I am a huge fan of QHs. I have always gotten along well with Hancock bred horses, but maybe that's because we have a lot in common. I've had several barrel horses that have worked for me, a few with race breeding, some reining bred, some cutting bred... There are good and bad in any. And while the age is somewhat important on future soundness, i find that what they are doing at what age, and what they are fed is more important. I liked to do different things when I was younger.. tried just about everything (from Saddleseat to Pole Bending.. just never did Dressage or jumping haha), and its amazing what a good well broke horse will do, even if he's never done it before.

            I absolutely adored my Leo and Two Eyed Jack and Three Bars bred horses. Of all, those were probably my favorite lines. I <3 Three Bars. The best QH ever (hahaha.. he actually was voted the most influential lol).
            "Sadly, some people's greatest skill, is being an idiot". (facebook profile pic I saw).

            Comment


            • #66
              Y'all reminded me of what some crazy old man said to me once:

              "You just can't train those Zippo horses..."

              I was like, "Seriously? That's like the most popular performance bloodline there is..."

              He didn't have much of a comeback for that one

              Comment


              • #67
                I generally like to form my OWN opinion through personal intereaction and ownership of AFEW of the same "line" before I form an opinion.

                I had afew folks tell me to stay away from Shining Sparks..to hard to ride. I bought a weanling g-son and he was one of the best horses we've ever had on the place..glad I didnt listen to naysayers!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Ditto that, my H/J paint horse is an own son of RH Mr Imprint... If I remember correctly from reading the APHA Journal yesterday, he's in the top 5 all time halter horse sires... My horse is no halter horse, but he's a damn good hunter!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by spinandslide View Post
                    I generally like to form my OWN opinion through personal intereaction and ownership of AFEW of the same "line" before I form an opinion.

                    I had afew folks tell me to stay away from Shining Sparks..to hard to ride. I bought a weanling g-son and he was one of the best horses we've ever had on the place..glad I didnt listen to naysayers!
                    Well, you may also want to give some credit to whatever else is in that pedigree, other than that one grandparent.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                      Well, you may also want to give some credit to whatever else is in that pedigree, other than that one grandparent.
                      Ill give credit to his sire, a son of Shining Spark, he has the same pleasant demenor our horse had, will that suffice?
                      All horses I've met by this sire..the sire himself, and other SS sons and daughters have exhibited the same "can do" attitude and easy going temperment. If I was a gambler, Id go with the line contributing to that..but thats just me..

                      the lost point I was making was, just because a "line" is labeled as something by some, doesnt always mean it's true. plenty a trainer will bash a line of horses..simply because they can't get along with horses of that said line...or because they heard through a friend of a friend of a friend that "that line is broncy"

                      I give each horse the benefit of the doubt and form my OWN opinions...

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by spinandslide View Post
                        Ill give credit to his sire, a son of Shining Spark, he has the same pleasant demenor our horse had, will that suffice?
                        All horses I've met by this sire..the sire himself, and other SS sons and daughters have exhibited the same "can do" attitude and easy going temperment. If I was a gambler, Id go with the line contributing to that..but thats just me..

                        the lost point I was making was, just because a "line" is labeled as something by some, doesnt always mean it's true. plenty a trainer will bash a line of horses..simply because they can't get along with horses of that said line...or because they heard through a friend of a friend of a friend that "that line is broncy"

                        I give each horse the benefit of the doubt and form my OWN opinions...
                        A son, unless inbred, is still only 50% Shining Spark and he may have inherited dormant genes from way back thru his 50% also, not even considering the dam's 50%..

                        Generally, with horses, their breeding characteristics and perceived traits from them, where there is smoke, there may be after all some fire there somewhere.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I rode in a Les Vogt clinic in the spring and I found something that he said very interesting, "Certain bloodlines are more prone to injury than others!" I was dying to ask which cowhorse/reining lines he felt they were. I am not sure that is true but would have loved to hear his further thought on it.
                          RIP Sucha Smooth Whiskey
                          May 17,2004 - March 29, 2010
                          RIP San Lena Peppy
                          May 3, 1991 - March 11, 2010

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            QH Racing in Canada...?

                            Originally posted by Scaramouch View Post
                            I don't suppose they race QHs in Canada?

                            I did quite a bit of jumping and eventing at the lower levels on an off-the-track First Down Dash grandson. He'd been unsound on the track, but was never lame during the time that I had him. He's easily one of the most athletic and, other than being the slightest bit downhill, well-conformed animals I've ever seen.
                            There is a 'big' track in Ajax, Ontario called Picov's. If you are looking for off the track QHs then you can take a look at Paul Garrison's...he advertises a number of them.
                            Don't talk unless you can improve the silence.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              I bought my 1st QH a few years ago. She is now 7 and lame (right front). She was started lightly as a 2 yr old and and was ridden regularily at 3. No one ever did the round pen thing with her, she was so easy going, we just got on and rode! She has nice big feet, but the lameness is definitely in the foot. She is built downhill but carries herself easily and when she was sound she was a really nice mover. I didn't know anything about QH breeding when I bought her, I just liked the horse (a dream to ride, pretty, friendly). I had a short but successful show career with her. She is line bred (zippo pine bar is grandfather and greatgrandfather). I paid quite a bit for her (I could have got a decent 3ft hunter for the same price) and I really love this horse. I am so disappointed I have a friend with a 2 yr old that has been in much heavier training than my mare ever was (started at 18 months and ridden hard ever since). I am afraid for them in the future!!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                There are QH lines that do pass on attitude and "traits". For example, Hancocks work well as ranch horses because they are gritty and have a lot of bottom...but they can buck like no one's business. Yeah, it's a generalization, but enough folks breed them with that in mind (taking the bucking along with the gritty, because they tend to go hand in hand). This doesn't mean a horse who has Hancock once in the 8th generation will have a bronc, but a horse from strong Hancock lines just might.

                                I had a mare who was a granddaughter of Ettabo (who was in turn a grandson of Depth Charge). Both Ettabo and Depth Charge were well known for having attitudes (ie: they could be very RANK). This mare also had Go Man Go in the same generation as Depth Charge, another rank one. I had her in a Lynn McKenzie barrel racing clinic and Tess was being a bit of a blitch. Nothing serious, just giving me attitude. Lynn says over the mike, "Ah, she's having an Ettabo moment!" LOL so true!

                                But then i have an Impressive bred paint gelding (HYPP N/N, with Impressive ONCE, back in the 9th generation) who shows none of the nastiness i was told to be on the look for with that line. I mean come ON, it's so far back as to be almost negligible! and yet people assured me he'd buck and be dangerous. Same for my red dund gelding...MM is back 11 generations and yet his breeder called him, "Music Mount bred". Well hell, Mr San Peppy was closer and in their TWICE, i'd rather think that MSP had far more to do with this gelding's genetics!

                                Crap i'm ranting again. sorry.
                                People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they're lost.---Dalai Lama

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                                  A son, unless inbred, is still only 50% Shining Spark and he may have inherited dormant genes from way back thru his 50% also, not even considering the dam's 50%..

                                  Generally, with horses, their breeding characteristics and perceived traits from them, where there is smoke, there may be after all some fire there somewhere.
                                  I did not say to not consider the dam's genes..but by your own words..where there is smoke, there is fire..it doesnt take a genius to figure out that some lines of horses are known for continually producing certain "traits" and "out producing" themselves..if they didnt, why the hell do we even register and keep track of lineage, in order to preserve those traits?

                                  Sometimes when a horse is crossed on another horse of a certain line, a niche is found..something that just "clicks" almost all the time..and sometimes you find a cross between certain lines creates a monster..and thus you stay away from that cross. and Im not talking individual horses exclusively..Im talking lines..within the first 2 generations of the actual horses in question...

                                  ask any performance breeder, worth their salt..they follow a very similar line of thought..the first 2 generations of a horse's lineage play the biggest factor in what that horse actually is.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by Bumper View Post
                                    There are QH lines that do pass on attitude and "traits". For example, Hancocks work well as ranch horses because they are gritty and have a lot of bottom...but they can buck like no one's business. Yeah, it's a generalization, but enough folks breed them with that in mind (taking the bucking along with the gritty, because they tend to go hand in hand). This doesn't mean a horse who has Hancock once in the 8th generation will have a bronc, but a horse from strong Hancock lines just might.

                                    I had a mare who was a granddaughter of Ettabo (who was in turn a grandson of Depth Charge). Both Ettabo and Depth Charge were well known for having attitudes (ie: they could be very RANK). This mare also had Go Man Go in the same generation as Depth Charge, another rank one. I had her in a Lynn McKenzie barrel racing clinic and Tess was being a bit of a blitch. Nothing serious, just giving me attitude. Lynn says over the mike, "Ah, she's having an Ettabo moment!" LOL so true!

                                    But then i have an Impressive bred paint gelding (HYPP N/N, with Impressive ONCE, back in the 9th generation) who shows none of the nastiness i was told to be on the look for with that line. I mean come ON, it's so far back as to be almost negligible! and yet people assured me he'd buck and be dangerous. Same for my red dund gelding...MM is back 11 generations and yet his breeder called him, "Music Mount bred". Well hell, Mr San Peppy was closer and in their TWICE, i'd rather think that MSP had far more to do with this gelding's genetics!

                                    Crap i'm ranting again. sorry.
                                    Ive found the same to be true on heavily hancock bred horses..they can buck and are generally quite ornery..but as you said, the cowboys get along great with them..they are a horse who needs a sun up to sun down job..period.

                                    I know some people who advertise their stock "San PEppy mare", Doc O Lena mare"..when it's 5 generations back. I wouldnt say the line has a direct influence on the individual horse unless it's second generation or closer..I say second generation, as generally I take a hard look at the dam's sire...outside of what the dam herself has done, I want to see a strong sire for her..similar with the sire of the horse..a strong sire, sired by a strong sire..and a proven dam, out of a strong sire and a producing dam is the creme de la creme, for me at least.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by Rambler View Post
                                      I bought my 1st QH a few years ago. She is now 7 and lame (right front). She was started lightly as a 2 yr old and and was ridden regularily at 3. No one ever did the round pen thing with her, she was so easy going, we just got on and rode! She has nice big feet, but the lameness is definitely in the foot. She is built downhill but carries herself easily and when she was sound she was a really nice mover. I didn't know anything about QH breeding when I bought her, I just liked the horse (a dream to ride, pretty, friendly). I had a short but successful show career with her. She is line bred (zippo pine bar is grandfather and greatgrandfather). I paid quite a bit for her (I could have got a decent 3ft hunter for the same price) and I really love this horse. I am so disappointed I have a friend with a 2 yr old that has been in much heavier training than my mare ever was (started at 18 months and ridden hard ever since). I am afraid for them in the future!!
                                      Rambler, sorry for your bad luck..
                                      Did you get a diagnosis on the lameness??

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by Bumper View Post
                                        There are QH lines that do pass on attitude and "traits". For example, Hancocks work well as ranch horses because they are gritty and have a lot of bottom...but they can buck like no one's business. Yeah, it's a generalization, but enough folks breed them with that in mind (taking the bucking along with the gritty, because they tend to go hand in hand). This doesn't mean a horse who has Hancock once in the 8th generation will have a bronc, but a horse from strong Hancock lines just might.

                                        I had a mare who was a granddaughter of Ettabo (who was in turn a grandson of Depth Charge). Both Ettabo and Depth Charge were well known for having attitudes (ie: they could be very RANK). This mare also had Go Man Go in the same generation as Depth Charge, another rank one. I had her in a Lynn McKenzie barrel racing clinic and Tess was being a bit of a blitch. Nothing serious, just giving me attitude. Lynn says over the mike, "Ah, she's having an Ettabo moment!" LOL so true!

                                        But then i have an Impressive bred paint gelding (HYPP N/N, with Impressive ONCE, back in the 9th generation) who shows none of the nastiness i was told to be on the look for with that line. I mean come ON, it's so far back as to be almost negligible! and yet people assured me he'd buck and be dangerous. Same for my red dund gelding...MM is back 11 generations and yet his breeder called him, "Music Mount bred". Well hell, Mr San Peppy was closer and in their TWICE, i'd rather think that MSP had far more to do with this gelding's genetics!

                                        Crap i'm ranting again. sorry.
                                        I've never heard a negative thing about Impressive bred horses' personalities, only the HYPP thing, which as long as the AQHA gets it together and stops allowing H/H and N/H horses to be registered, can eventually be bred out... At least here's hoping people stop breeding that crap!

                                        I've had great luck with N/N Impressive bred horses that also have performance lines (performance lines being the keyphrase there).

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by OveroHunter View Post
                                          I've never heard a negative thing about Impressive bred horses' personalities, only the HYPP thing, which as long as the AQHA gets it together and stops allowing H/H and N/H horses to be registered, can eventually be bred out... At least here's hoping people stop breeding that crap!

                                          I've had great luck with N/N Impressive bred horses that also have performance lines (performance lines being the keyphrase there).
                                          Alot of folks Ive talked with seem to hold the assumption that impressive bred horses are "nasty"..Ive seen one horse who was a jackwad and was a g-son of Impressive..all the other impressive's Ive met were quite sweet and very easy to handle.

                                          I do agree..a straight halterbred horse is usually a poor canidate for riding..if you plan to do anything that requires the horse to actually work..exceptions to all rules (I know afew guys who use halter type horses to rope on)..but I think it should be a case by case thing..alot of them I've seen are EXTREMLY post hocked.

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