So much unsoundness in QH's?? WHY? WHY? WHY?!

[Pasture_Ornament]

You would probably be better off to buy a young horse from a ranch production sale- I am talking the big ranches that keep all their young stock turned out on the range until they are 2 or 3 years old. Those horses have good performance/working bloodlines, and are tough. They have good minds that are not ruined, and their bodies have been allowed to mature properly. They are not growing up in stalls on sweet feed and being round penned to death to young....

Yes.... This is what I said I was going to do, and then I ended up buying the 7 year old. Should have stuck to my guns.

[Gestalt]

A woman I know has two geldings she bought from a ranch somewhere near Baker City, OR. Ugly looking boys by showhorse standards. (I like them ), big heads that are full of brains w/big ears, big legs and feet, their bodies aren't big, but they're "substantial" if you know what I mean. Both have longish necks and sloping hindquaters, not the extreme slant you see a lot nowadays, just a good slope to shoulder and hip. They do have short pasterns. Hers are used for ranch work.

I've never heard her mention either of them being lame or ouchy and those boys work hard in the spring, summer and fall. But there might be a trade-off when finding what will suit your intent. Her horses can work out on the ranch all day every day, but they don't go "on the bit" or "in a frame", they probably don't have the quick speed needed for competition roping and they definitely aren't show ring cutting horses. They have to move cows in the holding pens and they're roped off of, but when you add competition speeds to the mix, well I don't know.

[GB Trail Rider]

Yup, and don't forget the reallllyyy small feet. And big bulky body.

Exactly.

[QuarterCanuck]

Have seen some nice looking Quarter horses for sale at NorthStar Livestock in Southampton. Outside of that, I think alot of QHs in Ontario are pleasure circuit bred and not built to last.

[naturalequus]

You would probably be better off to buy a young horse from a ranch production sale- I am talking the big ranches that keep all their young stock turned out on the range until they are 2 or 3 years old. Those horses have good performance/working bloodlines, and are tough. They have good minds that are not ruined, and their bodies have been allowed to mature properly. They are not growing up in stalls on sweet feed and being round penned to death to young....

Second, third, whatever, the above and other responses. Breeding for trends such as what looks to be a Belgian Blue with dime-sized feet, over-working and over-feeding them at such a young age (1+), etc etc - all makes for shortened longevity.

My Quarab (3/4 QH - running and cow bred) is still going strong (including jumping 3ft+ with his lessee) at 16 this year. He's NEVER been unsound. My mom's 'well bred' QH (this was a good 15 years ago?) by contrast was euthanized around 10 years of age due to navicular. The SO will probably go QH or APHA (or more likely, a cross between the two or such) but we won't be touching anything that is not ranch-bred or at least following similar ideals.

Don't go for the halter-horse types obviously, they're bred to stand and look pretty, not to be ridden; I would also stray from the reining/cutting horses who have been started young and are on feed programs, are cooped up, etc. DEFINITELY look into the ranch-bred horses. They're usually bred well for PURPOSE and longevity because we NEED our ranch horses to stay sound for their entire lives. A good ranch horse is difficult to replace and last thing you want is to be replacing one every 8-12 years so they are typically bred to last from the start. Look for good-sized feet, a more average height (ie, 15hh range), a good build overall, average muscling, and the breeding to back it all. You really do have to look at the whole package from breeding to husbandry to workload to conformation, just as with any horse. Looking into the ranch-breds however is a great place to start. ETA: and ranch-bred QH's can be absolutely gorgeous to boot.

[MunchkinsMom]

You would probably be better off to buy a young horse from a ranch production sale- I am talking the big ranches that keep all their young stock turned out on the range until they are 2 or 3 years old. Those horses have good performance/working bloodlines, and are tough. They have good minds that are not ruined, and their bodies have been allowed to mature properly. They are not growing up in stalls on sweet feed and being round penned to death to young....

Ditto. I have always had QH's, my two old-timers both diagnosed with navicular syndrome, age 14 and 19. Last year a bought a mare who had been purchased as a yearling from the 6666 ranch sale, I purchased her at age 6. She is still barefoot and sound in mind and body. She may not have "show" horse bloodlines, but I think she will hold up.

FYI - I did manage to maintain soundness with the two older horses through careful trims and shoeing, supplements, massage and chiro, until I retired them from the show pen.

[Bluey]

How about all the many, many, many horses out there that are sound?

How about all those other than quarter horses that are not?

We are going at this without any data, just assumptions and forgetting all those that never had any problems for those sad cases that did.

We had one horse with ringbone at 14, but that was from a pasture accident, a misstep and arthritis setting in the joint, not from "quarter horse breeding", although he was a quarter horse.

I think this "so much unsoundness in QH's" question is like "so many crazy TBs", "so many hot saddlebreds" or "spooky arabians" and then tell us about those you know that were crazy, hot or spooky.

We had a feral horse, captured at five from a Nevada herd, that had bad knees, rickets, the vet called it, from growing up in starving conditions in the desert.
I don't go around insisting so many feral horses are cripples with bad knees.

Yes, there are some lines that may produce problems in any breed and we need to try not to breed or buy from those that breed them.

That is not a reason to blame such a varied breed as quarter horses for the ills of some.
Plenty of those ranch quarter horses came from lines that were less than sound also, but thru careful breeding the problem horses were not used to bred from.
It takes time with horses to get the better, sounder ones out there and then there are those that breed for other than soundness, like color or certain look or ability and that happens no matter what horses you breed.

[OldMorgans]

You would probably be better off to buy a young horse from a ranch production sale- I am talking the big ranches that keep all their young stock turned out on the range until they are 2 or 3 years old. Those horses have good performance/working bloodlines, and are tough. They have good minds that are not ruined, and their bodies have been allowed to mature properly. They are not growing up in stalls on sweet feed and being round penned to death to young....

I have often wondered if these ranch bred QHs stay sound longer, even if started as 2 yr olds. Mostly, they are not started at 18 months as the performance horses are so they can go to the futurities. And they are raised in much environments. If I were to get a QH, I'd be looking at one of the ranch sales.

[naturalequus]

Not picking on you of course Bluey, but wanted to comment nonetheless

Why more quarter horses than other registered breeds?
Because they are the most numerous out there, compared with any other registered horse.

I'd like to see a study actually because obviously your point is valid, but I still believe the QH breed to be plagued with more unsoundness than most other breeds, percentage-wise. This is not due strictly to breeding practises of course, I feel it is due to 'the whole package'. It is only logical however that starting a horse as young as 1 1/2, prior to full development, and especially working them as HARD as they do in say the reining and cutting industries (ie, spins, excess longeing, etc), will produce excess wear and tear that will cause the young horse to be prone to injury and unsoundness. It's also only logical that the halter-bred QH with an upright shoulder and pasterns, with body-builder muscling and tiny feet and who already looks like a freak of nature of some sort, is also going to be more prone to injury and unsoundness. Since a large percentage of QH's are bred, raised, worked in such a (aforementioned) manner - a larger percentage than say many other breeds, it is only logical a large percentage will be prone to injury and unsoundness.

I have to disagree on the futurities point though again I would LOVE to see a study!! I know of other individuals heavily involved in futurities who list the same complaints we are seeing here in regards to lack of longevity and soundness in the QH's. This is due only in part of course to their being started and worked at such a young age but such is only logical. Of course MANY lead long and sound lives, but a large percentage don't. I concur one must consider the whole package in general though.

I don't see many backyard breeders of TB race horses, most those are bred and raised by professional breeding farms that have that to a science and do an excellent job and so I would guess there are less coming up unsound from that than quarter horses, if that is so.

The Thoroughbred industry is plagued by its own very prevalent issues within its breed, too. Professional breeding farms vary from those who have it down to an exact science and who breed to the benefit of the breed (ie, looking at the big picture) and also themselves, to those who breed strictly to their own benefit. I've seen mares with crooked legs, mares who developed unsoundness due to conformation (ie, bows, fractures, etc etc), etc all retiring to the breeding shed. Those mares should NEVER have even SEEN a stallion, let alone be bred by one. Same follows for some of the studs. But they ran well or at least showed promise for the year or so (maybe less, maybe more) they did run or at least train, or they possess 'good' bloodlines, so they returned to the farm to be bred/to breed. These weren't backyard breeders, either. It's the reason the breed is known for its bad feet, etc. I recently posted a video where Temple Grandin actually addresses this a little.

[FlashGordon]

The unsoundness-- due to both genetics/breeding and training practices-- is one reason I've strayed away from the breed, despite growing up in a very AQHA oriented barn and area.

I refuse to own another Impressive bred horse, I don't care for them even if they are N/N, and around here you are hard pressed to find one that DOES NOT have any Impressive in it.

I had a fantastic QH as a child that was more foundation bred, and we did a little bit of everything for 6 years. The two horses I had after him (One full QH, the other Appendix) were absolute nightmares in the soundness department.

Since then I moved on to TBs, but now in the quest to find a smallish, sturdy, forward-thinking, all around mount I've bought a Morgan.

Now last spring I was putting miles on a friend's ranch bred QH. He came from Wyoming and he was fantastic. Sturdy, sane, great work ethic. If I ever wanted another QH I'd find myself a proper ranch bred horse....

[naturalequus]

I think this "so much unsoundness in QH's" question is like "so many crazy TBs", "so many hot saddlebreds" or "spooky arabians" and then tell us about those you know that were crazy, hot or spooky.

Fact is there ARE certain trends among certain breeds and within certain industries (ie, cutting, reining, dressage, jumping, etc). We don't base this on one individual (such as your one mustang), but on association with a number of individuals. Of course I would absolutely love to see a study verifying the general consensus we seem to have here/some of our beliefs but when a large number of people see the same thing and draw the same conclusions, there (usually) has to be some sort of truth to the story. Sure there are quiet Arabians, Thoroughbreds, and Saddlebreds, but we all know that, in general, all three breeds tend to produce hotter, more sensitive horses that require a quiet, understanding hand. In general. I don't think anyone can argue that, as much as we might love all three breeds (and I do, though I'm picky with the Saddlebreds I like ). Just as most draft breeds can be predicted to produce quiet, laid-back individuals. Say a beginner is looking for a horse, I am going to recommend something like a QH over a TB, the latter likely requiring more finesse. Of course there are exceptions - my mom is a middle-aged unconfident re-rider with a wonderful OTTB mare. However her last OTTB was a little too much horse for her (though his novice lessees did wonderful on him ). But I'm not going to recommend a TB for my green as grass SO - he's going to get a QH or Paint because those breeds trend toward being quieter.

I completely understand where you're coming from and do agree to a point. But fact is, certain breeds have certain trends, hence this (and other similar) thread(s). Knowing these trends can aid an individual in choosing the horse that is right for them. Same as one should try to choose a mustang raised in a different environment than the one yours came from, in an attempt at "the whole package". I don't see anyone here bashing QH's specifically, just pointing out the trends and how to avoid QH's bred within some of those trends. For sure we can advise the OP to choose QH's other than ranch-bred, but certain industries breed for QH's who are known for being prone to injury and unsoundness so the OP's best bet is to avoid those industries altogether (or at least individuals practising the 'norms' within those industries), just because choosing a suitable and sound individual within those industries, practicing those certain practices, might be more difficult.

[Bluey]

The unsoundness-- due to both genetics/breeding and training practices-- is one reason I've strayed away from the breed, despite growing up in a very AQHA oriented barn and area.

I refuse to own another Impressive bred horse, I don't care for them even if they are N/N, and around here you are hard pressed to find one that DOES NOT have any Impressive in it.

I had a fantastic QH as a child that was more foundation bred, and we did a little bit of everything for 6 years. The two horses I had after him (One full QH, the other Appendix) were absolute nightmares in the soundness department.

Since then I moved on to TBs, but now in the quest to find a smallish, sturdy, forward-thinking, all around mount I've bought a Morgan.

Now last spring I was putting miles on a friend's ranch bred QH. He came from Wyoming and he was fantastic. Sturdy, sane, great work ethic. If I ever wanted another QH I'd find myself a proper ranch bred horse....

I agree on Impressive bred being a horse I don't want to touch, the few we had were not the kind we like at all.

Then, do you know the breeding on those "ranch horses from WY"?

The last two I checked out from there had Impressive in their lines, that they carefully were hiding by not wanting to give the registered name in their ads.

Many of those ranch horses people brag about being so good have the same breeding they dislike in show horses and for those that get big name ranch stock, remember, they got there by showing their horses and also have those you seem to not like in their breeding stock, other than the later halter horses, those are an aberration.

Everyone likes to find fault with quarter horses, because with so many around, of course, there are also many bad ones.
I will say, as a percentage of the total numbers, not any more bad ones than in grade or horses of other breeds.

[SarahandSam]

I think it has a lot to do with the breeding programs for QHs around here... as others have mentioned, southern Ontario is similar to WNY in that you see a lot of "line bred" QHs bred for pleasure and halter by BYBs, and the quality has gone downhill... my first horse was a 9-year-old mare with extremely severe navicular; she had a pedigree that shared multiple names with pretty much any other registered QH in the area. I don't know what her history was, but though her conformation was actually good and she didn't have the wee tiny feet that keep getting bred on, she was 3-legged lame. Of course, the person who owned her before me bred her (to her first cousin, I believe) as soon as she went lame.

So I don't think it's anything about QHs being more unsound than other breeds, it's that there are a lot of groups of people breeding irresponsibly for whatever weird, uncharacteristic anomalies are hot and trendy for that discipline at the moment (tiny feet, crazy muscling, quick growth, etc.), and that there's also a lot of pushing for futurities and early and intense training. And those are the horses that we see around here, not the nice, ranch-bred, working and classic QH types that are found in other areas of the country.

My little QH now is very tough and sound, but I also suspect that he didn't come from around here, and he wasn't started 'til he was 4...

[naturalequus]

Many of those ranch horses people brag about being so good have the same breeding they dislike in show horses and for those that get big name ranch stock, remember, they got there by showing their horses and also have those you seem to not like in their breeding stock, other than the later halter horses, those are an aberration.

It's not just about the breeding, as you said yourself - it's about the whole package. Of course some of the ranch-bred QH's will have similar breeding to some of what we see in the show ring, but - again - it's about the whole package. Many of the ranches AREN'T showing - they get their name by the fantastic ranch horse stock they produce for ranching purposes specifically. Some ARE showing, but there are ranch-horse-specific shows and classes as well as other purpose-specific shows and classes suitable to such ranches with an inclination to showing. Most say WP and halter horses are coming from WP-bred and halter-horse-bred stock, whereas most ranch-bred QH's are coming from specifically ranch-bred stock. Of course bloodlines will cross (especially between ranch and cutting and reining, etc - to breed cowy ranch horses you're going to include cowy bloodlines also prevalent in, say, cutting), but the breeding purpose differs. Furthermore, it's about the whole package - how those horses are raised, started, worked, etc.

[Lilykoi]

We have five QHs in my barn. Oldest is 24ish and other than falling asleep on the cross ties, she's still going strong as a hunter. The others are western pleasure and one is dressage. They are sound as can be and ridden every day. The warmbloods in the show barn are not so lucky.
Don't know what to say; lifestyle? Good genes? I have a feeling a little of both. Love our QHs!

[FlashGordon]

I think it has a lot to do with the breeding programs for QHs around here... as others have mentioned, southern Ontario is similar to WNY in that you see a lot of "line bred" QHs bred for pleasure and halter by BYBs, and the quality has gone downhill...

Exactly! WNY is a weird place for a lot of things, including QHs.

Bluey I didn't know the breeding on the ranch horse I was riding, no papers to speak of and maybe he isn't QH at all though I suspect he is, lol. I'm 99.9% sure he wasn't Impressive bred.

[HenryisBlaisin']

Agree 100% with looking at the ranch-bred horses. I don't do rodeo, so I don't know what qualities exactly you need, but from what I've seen of team roping, the ranch type of QH is exactly what you want.

"Well-bred" is a tricky phrase. In the QH world, well-bred for halter rarely, if ever means well-bred for performance. Well-bred for pleasure doesn't mean well-bred for cutting or reining. Names on the papers don't mean anything if they aren't names of proven producers for the discipline you want.

Hands-down the best horse I've ever owned is my little ranch-bred grade QH gelding. He is sound at 16 and does pretty much everything. Trail riding? Sure. Parades? No problem. Lower level dressage? If you want to. Open show HUS/pleasure? Sure, no problem, how many blue ribbons do you want this week? Western horsemanship? Tricolors. Barrel racing? If you say so, mom...

He's not built for Western pleasure, and he'll never make FEI levels in dressage or be a 3"+ hunter, but he is sound and he has brains and an incredible work ethic. In short, he is the poster child for what the QH should be, and at one time was MEANT to be. They're out there, they're not nearly as expensive as the halter or pleasure lines, and they are more durable. Find the right one, and you will never be disappointed...until the day he retires.

[Kat the Horse]

I have been attending LOTS of horseshows this year. It is terrible the number of LAME horses that are ridden in the QH classes.

[Scaramouch]

I don't suppose they race QHs in Canada?

I did quite a bit of jumping and eventing at the lower levels on an off-the-track First Down Dash grandson. He'd been unsound on the track, but was never lame during the time that I had him. He's easily one of the most athletic and, other than being the slightest bit downhill, well-conformed animals I've ever seen.

[1sock]

My AQHA mare is 20 this year, I bought her as a 10 year old. We had 2 years with soundness issues off and on, unfortunately she's one of those "big body, tiny pasterns/hooves" horses, I'm sure due to the halter lines in her pedigree. We dealt with stone bruises, windpuffs and a sprain (which left her unhappily on stall rest for 2 months). That was in the beginning though and the last 4 years I haven't had to even put a front set of shoes on her. She's my gaming horse, we just do fun shows but she is FAST. And pretty. And smart. And has a hell of a work ethic. She's fearless when it comes to things that would make many horses nervous, (we did a pony express re-enactment where we rode in the grass median of an 8 lane highway with semis rushing by) but she spooks at deer and other small horse-eating woodland creatures

She was shown in halter when she was young and then went on to be used for roping/ranch work. Nothing spectacular up close, but her breeding is Impressive, Doc Bar and Top Deck. She's N/N of course. We've had a lot of Impressive bred horses over the years and have loved them all, they've all been N/N. Our old stallion was a son of Barnone Impressive and he was a great old boy. And the PRCA barrel horse of the year a few years back was Sparky Impression, (I think that was his name), also a son of Barnone Impressive, who I believe stood at the Sutton Ranch.

The AQHA gelding I grew up riding never took a lame step in the 16 years we owned him- he was only about 14.2 hands tall but did everything I ever asked him to do. He'd worked cows, trail rode, was shown (and won) in my 4-H and open show western pleasure and gaming classes and even took a few english lessons with me. He was the quintessensial (sp?) all-around horse. Never had an off day and I truly can't remember "Buddy" ever offering to spook, crowhop, etc. He left a lot to live up to when he was retired and I was looking for another horse. He was as honest as they come and the best horse in the world for me. He developed a heart murmur at 29 and passed away when he was 31 and a 1/2 years old. He had a good, old fashioned QH racing pedigree:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bills+billy+boy