• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

Please help! I believe the person i free leased my horse to sold him

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    Originally posted by mvp View Post


    To answer your question: Legally, you don't need to buy the horse back if you can prove he is yours and not The Guy's property to sell.
    That's the kicker, though--there's no proof the horse wasn't given to him, only OP's word against the guy, and from the sound of it, the BO s/he had the horse with who said "trust me, I know a place." There was a nebulous verbal agreement that he'd free lease the horse AND that if OP couldn't take the horse back, the horse would be given to him (the entire idea of "forever home" is hard to enforce in writing, let alone in a he said/she said situation.) There's proof the OP bought the horse in 2005, but nothing in writing that they were only leasing it out, not giving it away.

    You can't legally sell or acquire title (even in good faith) to stolen property (good faith means you can't be busted for recieving it), but in this case there's no WRITTEN proof the horse is or isn't stolen. A lawyer, in addition to the police, is going to be very handy here.
    Author Page
    Like Omens In the Night on Facebook
    Steampunk Sweethearts

    Comment


    • #22
      7 months ago? the horse could have another new owner by this time.

      Comment


      • #23
        Advice from the internet is free advice.
        People can tell you to do this or that, but in reality, the law doesn't work like that.

        I would contact an attorney, and also talk to my local police(free) and find out what procedures you can and can't do.

        I would contact netposse, and if you know any auction houses, I would visit them with a picture of your horse, and if he runs through a sale to contact you, and tell them there is a reward.

        See what your rights are. Unfortunately, I have found its the scam artists who can get away with things, and law abiding people get screwed.

        Good luck.

        If you are in CT...and want to make a big deal about this...go to equinesite and post on their site under ct and general.
        I would first find out what my rights were.

        I also think having place of business is a good thing. Personally, I would go there and follow him home to get his home address. Or I'd have a friend tail him, or if you have the money, hire a pi.
        save lives...spay/neuter/geld

        Comment


        • #24
          So is the moral of the story, "Don't ever FREE lease?"

          Comment


          • #25
            No. The moral of the story is have a lease contract, even if it's a free lease. And to meet the person who's taking your horse. And to have not only direct contact information for that person, but emergency contact information for that person.

            Absolutely not trying to slam the OP. Life happens, and we take the best way out of difficult situations that we're offered. But there should have at least been something informal in writing.

            And, never trust someone who has to say, "Trust me."

            Good luck with finding and reclaiming your horse, OP.
            In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
            A life lived by example, done too soon.
            www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

            Comment


            • #26
              I hope you find your horse. I think you've gotten good advice: report the horse as stolen, call the police, contact a lawyer and don't be afraid to contact this man where he works. I might not show up there until you know your rights but I would certainly call him and tell him you've reported the theft if he refuses to tell you where the horse is located. For a couple of hundred $ you could have a lawyer make the contact. Not a bad investment if you are very emotional.
              Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
              EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

              Comment


              • #27
                Why would the OP have to prove she did not give the horse away? Shouldn't the guy who took him have to prove she did?
                "The captive bolt is not a proper tool for slaughter of equids they regain consciousness 30 seconds after being struck fully aware they are being vivisected." Dr Friedlander DVM & frmr Chief USDA Insp

                Comment


                • #28
                  See what your rights are. Unfortunately, I have found its the scam artists who can get away with things, and law abiding people get screwed.


                  This is for sure! I had a horse given to me by good friends (or so I thought) paperwork signed said horse was mine free and clear after the first year I had her. I had her for several years, then had a family tragedy (my mother passed away unexpectedly). Original owners took her back to board her for me for a few weeks till I could get transport to our new farm. We moved to be closer to my mother not knowing she was going to pass away so suddenly.
                  Well when a few weeks went by and I called to ask about arragements to have the shipper pick up my mare and find out what I owed for feed/board *they said earlier they would tally it up and give me a total. They played stupid saying they "we are keeping her" "they missed her" "they never should have given her away" then cut off all contact with me and other friends they had for years. Of course I did not have the written contract and had never asked for her papers even though they offered after that first year. I did not feel i needed them I did not show and had no intention of breeding her. NEVER thought they would steal her from me. Father is a teacher, one daughter a lawyer, one a doctor. You would think someone in the family would feel like maybe they should not be stealing a horse ? They knew I was now 1500 miles away with three young children and could not pursue this in court. They had $ on thier side. Its UNREAL and I hope one day they get what they gave. My ten year old daughter was heartbroken. This was an older mare in her late teens not a young show horse or a horse of value to them. I should never have trusted these people, ever. I should have kept the paperwork, the registration papers, everything.
                  That was a hard way to learn to not trust people EVER and DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT everything.
                  Good luck in your search. The police will tell you its not a police matter its civil and you will have to go to small claims court most likely. You will also have to get a PI or someone to find out info if you cant do it. Good luck on your search but be prepared it will not be easy nor cheap.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by ptownevt View Post
                    Why would the OP have to prove she did not give the horse away? Shouldn't the guy who took him have to prove she did?
                    She consented to him taking possession of the horse with a vague conditional about him MAYBE keeping it, permitted him to remove the horse without even meeting him (obviously consenting to his taking physical custody as she didn't immediately go after the horse when he was moved without her being there), and the only proof she has that she DIDN'T intend to give him the horse is her word against his. They'd BOTH have to prove their arguments, so it's who has the more convincing claim (and the better lawyer!) She's got the old bill of sale, he has (or had) the horse. Really good question is, what does the BO have to say? That sounds like the sketchiest dealer in this whole situation.
                    Author Page
                    Like Omens In the Night on Facebook
                    Steampunk Sweethearts

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by LookmaNohands View Post
                      So is the moral of the story, "Don't ever FREE lease?"
                      No, the moral of the story is to have written lease CONTRACTS, signed by both parties, that specifically state who the OWNER of the horse is at the time the contract is entered and all other details of the agreement. This document must be signed and dated by both parties, and ideally should be notarized as well.

                      This provides several things: Proof that the "seller" knew s/he didn't have legal title to the horse when sold; proof to law enforcement that the horse owner is, in fact, the horse owner and that the sold horse qualifies as stolen; proof to the new owners that they were had; and documentation to present as evidence in a court of law. Now, as others have said, the end result could well be no horse and no money for horse, but an iron-clad lease contract will at least give a scammer pause and give the owner a leg or two to stand on.

                      To the OP, I am sorry for your situation, and hope it turns out better for you than others have reported similar situations did for them.
                      Equinox Equine Massage

                      In the depth of winter, I finally learned that there was in me invincible summer.
                      -Albert Camus

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I joined COTH because of a similar situation, when my Calvin was sold by the woman to whom I leased him--with a strong, written contract.

                        Sadly, most states view horse theft as a civil matter--a contract gone bad, at least WA does.

                        I had a state brand inspection card on my horse, which allowed the state livestock investigator to pursue the thief, question her and help me locate my horse. My horse had been sent to Canada to be sold, and he was purchased by a Canadian girl.

                        I used vets, fellow COTH'rs, Dreamhorse and the investigator to track my boy down, BUY him from the innocent girl who purchased him, and to ship him back to the border, where I reclaimed him.

                        Contact a lawyer, try the sheriff or DA in your town or where he was boarded.

                        Have as much information or documents staking your claim to him as possible, too, including clear photos. This is why I keep a set of conformation shots and a detailed description of my horses on file with their papers and a bill of sale.

                        Good luck!
                        Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          When someone says "trust me", don't. Dead giveaway in my experience.

                          I feel for the OP and there has been a lot of good advice here.

                          Here's a little example of something not to fall for when you lease a horse, this did happen to me...I had a nice race horse that the trainer wanted and his wife said I could lease to them. In the fine print of our contract was the wording that they could SELL my horse if they wanted. I said she was my horse but the wife said they would have her leased from me and have control over her. They could do as they wanted, as long as I signed the contract. Never have I heard of this in any situation but these people tried it. I took my horse home that day.

                          Always read your contract and don't fall for 'trust me'.
                          GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by goneriding24 View Post
                            When someone says "trust me", don't. Dead giveaway in my experience.

                            I feel for the OP and there has been a lot of good advice here.

                            Here's a little example of something not to fall for when you lease a horse, this did happen to me...I had a nice race horse that the trainer wanted and his wife said I could lease to them. In the fine print of our contract was the wording that they could SELL my horse if they wanted. I said she was my horse but the wife said they would have her leased from me and have control over her. They could do as they wanted, as long as I signed the contract. Never have I heard of this in any situation but these people tried it. I took my horse home that day.

                            Always read your contract and don't fall for 'trust me'.
                            what aholes! wow, just the nerve.
                            save lives...spay/neuter/geld

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Speaking as a lawyer who does equine matters, having a written contract will not guarantee that you won't get screwed, but is sure as hell beats the "he said, she said" situation of verbal agreements.

                              Please, people. Get it in writing and signed by everybody involved.
                              Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by ptownevt View Post
                                Why would the OP have to prove she did not give the horse away? Shouldn't the guy who took him have to prove she did?
                                No - if I accuse you of stealing I have to prove you stole you don't have to prove you didn't. Complainant/plaintiff/whatever you want to call it has the burden of proof.

                                I would definitely be in touch with the police and a lawyer and put word out however you can. I'm betting that the former barn owner pulled a fast one and s/he is not going to back up your claim. I hope your horse is safe.
                                Most people don't need a $35,000 horse. They need a $1,000 horse and $34,000 in lessons.

                                "I don't have to be fair… . I'm an American With a Strong, Fact-Free Opinion." (stolen off Facebook)

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #36
                                  I really set myself up with a group of dishonest horse people. I talked to the woman whom i bought him from and have remained in close contact with since I purchased him. She herself is taken aback and said she will do anything possible to help me get my baby back. She was pretty much hitched and ready to go, but i do not have an address. I am working on that. I do know where he works, and an officer friend of the family said he can track the address by the license plate. He has also suggest pretty much what all of you have said. The woman i bought the horse from has state police at her horseshows and said she would speak with a few she is close with to see if they can come along to confront the man.

                                  I do not have any recent bills, as he shoes himself and i had all of the vaccinations and coggins done in the fall. He does not have a copy of the coggins, was it legal for him to trailer my horse without this? I am going to confront the man in a calm way and give the chance to fess up in person. If he fails to do so, i will bring out the big guns.

                                  I appreciate all of the support, as you all are probably the only ones that understand my pain. I feel like ive lost my bestfriend or child.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    One thing I learned -- you can't just go on someone's property and seize a horse. Even if it's yours!

                                    So even if the trailer is hitched up and ready, unless you have permission to go on the property and get the horse, you can't grab him.

                                    Check with an attorney on the specific laws in your state on this (or the police your friend knows).

                                    It's so unfortunate, but when you are sick as the original OP was, and your property is given away without you being there or a contract in place, it's pretty hard to get it back.

                                    I wish you the best of luck! I hope this has a happy ending.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      And you just know the asshat who took the horse and sold it was thinking he'd done the OP a big favor
                                      ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
                                      Check out my Kryswyn JRTs on Facebook

                                      "Life is merrier with a terrier!"

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by jane0327 View Post
                                        The police will tell you its not a police matter its civil and you will have to go to small claims court most likely.
                                        The police 'always' tell you that when you have been robbed*. What do they think their jobs are?


                                        They have brushed me off twice like that. I am pretty dogged with my research and in both times I tracked down my property and recovered it without their aid.

                                        People always leave clues, start with investigating his old phone number, adress, job etc. people don't change their spots you can find him you just ave to be PITA nosy and gossip, chat up his old friends.

                                        Drop clues here and turn the board members loose on the chase. Members here would put Adrian Monk to shame with their detective skills. .
                                        3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 10582097494459230781640628620899862803482534211706 79821480865132823066470938446095505822317253594081 284811174502841027019385.....

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Op , I am sorry for your situation and agree you should talk to a lawyer.

                                          Personally, I think you might have a tough time proving the horse was a free lease, not a giveaway. I have never known of a free lease where:
                                          • there was no contract and
                                          • there was no conversation between the parties and
                                          • there was no contact information given for the person taking the horse and
                                          • there was no information exchanged about where the horse would go, what it would be used for etc
                                          Not saying it doesn't happen, but in my experience when ALL of the above are absent prior to transfering the animal, it has been a giveaway situation.

                                          Also, before everyone forms a posse to go lynch the guy that had/has the horse, it is quite possible, since he did not speak with the OP, that he believes the horse was given to him. That could be why he is avoiding the OP.

                                          Two sides and all that...just sayin'
                                          Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                                          Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X