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Need help determining ethical ending for unsafe horse

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  • #81
    Baymare,

    I typed my post and didn't see yours until later. It sounds like you are an extremely experienced horsewoman and would indeed be able to tell if a horse is dangerous or not. If you can send him to WingedPanda, then perhaps that would be a happy ending for him in at least a pasture, at best vet care and re-hab (if he needs it) with a long happy life. If not and he is a danger, then the vet school donation may be a way to turn something horrible into something good.

    I'm truly sorry for your predicament and wish well.
    "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

    Comment


    • #82
      Whoever said there is no one who takes unridable horses, both the owners of my old and new farm will, and that is where they will spend the rest of their lives. Neither are rich, but the horses have a nice home. Thank god, because if the owners of my new farm didn't save my horse when she was deemed unrideable, I would never have her.

      A horse who is violent ALL the time, especially on the ground is dangerous. There are few options in that situation. But one that is just unridable, that's another story.

      Baymare, though I believe you are very experienced, the horse still may do better with another person. Is there another professional trainer you can send hime too? My mare came from professional trainers who she would throw at a walk. Sometimes it can be a matter of finding the right person with the right amount of time. I spend a lot of my time working with my mare so that I can ride her. Maybe someone you know has the kind of time it could take to totally rework the horse.

      I really am sorry you are in this position. I can see both sides of it coming from a farm that has unrideable horses. I think maybe people are having trouble with this thread, because, at least in my case, it makes me think of all the horses that are killed because of money, old age.... I am NOT saying this is what Baymare is doing, this is just what this topic makes me think about, and those reasons for killing a horse, or any animal, make me angry.

      Baymare is in an horrible situation, and while we should give our opinions and hope they help, no one should condem her for her actions unless they are willing to go pick the horse up and support it for the rest of it's life. Give your opinions kindly please, we do not need to make this harder then it already is.

      **Melissa and Ithaca**
      Formerly All My Luck
      My treasures do not glitter or clink,
      they gleam in the sunlight and neigh in the night.
      ~bedouin proverb

      Comment


      • #83
        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dappled Gray:
        Baymare is in an horrible situation, and while we should give our opinions and hope they help, no one should condem her for her actions unless they are willing to go pick the horse up and support it for the rest of it's life. Give your opinions kindly please, we do not need to make this harder then it already is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

        Thank you for saying that. Many people have their opinions & solutions posted here about what they would do if it was their horse. Well, has anybody called Baymare up & said they are coming with the trailer to take this horse & turn it out for the next 20 or so years it could live and pay for all it's bills during that time??
        "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"

        Comment


        • #84
          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Trust me on this one- the odds of giving a pretty sound big young horse away and NOT having someone try to ride it down the road are nil. Zip. Zero. Nada.

          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          Reminds me of the 2 TB mares I sold for dirt cheap several years ago because they were dangerous to ride - one right off the track and one that had been showing for years, made the Royal Winter fair a few years in a row in the conformation hunter division, etcand then had a brain meltdown about being ridden at all.
          They were both sold as broodmares ONLY, all my print ads stated that they were broodmares ONLY, the dimwit that bought them knew about their history and sure - she DID in fact breed them both for a couple of years and then thought ... hmmm ... nice, beautiful, tall, sound mares - let sell them for MEGA bucks for someone looking for a going "A" circuit hunter and a potential "A" circuit hunter.
          Both cases ended up in court when the new owners found out about their past history and I happily supplied them both with corespondance I had with this idiot and my ads selling both of them, and luckily for all involved, no one did get hurt (just awfully scared when one mare didnt have 4 feet on the ground for longer than 2 seconds at a stretch) and they are now still both broodmares, but how do you now control who the new owners sell them to, once again?

          And what is the right and the ethical solution here?

          Both were very lovely to handle on the ground - in fact - you couldnt ask for nicer animals to have around, but how do you make sure their past history follows them forward forevermore to make sure no one gets duped and worse yet - hurt by trying to ride them?

          "Spot"

          Comment


          • #85
            rainrot, respectfully, in a world where little kids don't have enough to eat and/or can't get medical care, yes, sometimes finances are an issue.

            I would rather, if it's the right decision, see Baymare euthanize a dangerous horse and instead save another horse from slaughter that is not dangerous. There are far worse things that can happen to a horse - slc, your story is heartbreaking.
            If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

            Comment


            • #86
              baymare, I'm sure you have thought long and hard about this, but what are your thoughts on giving him away to someone while being totally upfront about his issues? Can you be absolutely, positively certain that a different situation may not work for him? Different vets, different tack, different climate, different rider? Are you willing to let someone else give it a go before making that final decision to euthanize him?

              WingedPanda has said she would be interested in rehabbing a horse like this; surely there must be other people out there as well. What about some NH people looking for a challenge?

              I would not judge you if you DO decide to euthanize him; only you know how he really is. And I personally would not want to have that financial burden for the next 20-odd years either. Call me selfish, call me horrible, but I'd rather spend that money on a horse I could really help. Flame me if you must -- I already have one retiree that I am committed to caring for for the rest of his life, and I don't want another.

              And while it sounds like you are a very skilled horse-woman, and that you have exhausted your own resources, why not let someone else give it a try?

              where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?
              where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?

              Comment


              • #87
                I'm not going to feed a horse I can't enjoy. And no, I can't enjoy watching the devil himself eat my grass. I CAN enjoy watching my own beasties eat, and they'll eat my grass til the day they die.

                I get choose life or death about once every other month, here in the land of dumped dogs... I didn't bring them into this world, but I will offer them a few nice meals, then a trip to the Humane Society. There they will be killed and disposed of. Them's the facts.

                Baymare, either give him to someone who KNOWS his story, or put him down. This is NOT for the jury to decide: you know the horse, your friends and family TELLING you to stay off the horse know him to.

                Or, better yet- let rainrot have the beast.

                "Shoot me now! Shoot me now!"
                Bugs Bunny

                Comment


                • #88
                  Katarine has a good, no nonsense approach which I adhere to. The reality is there are many safe, pleasant, kind horses out there who need homes. Life is too short to keep unsafe, dangerous horses around. Plus, a dangerous horse costs just as much as a good one to feed-then when you throw liability and hospital bills into the equation, it gets really expensive.

                  I know, I was out over $14,000 for my out of pocket medical bills when my horse broke my back. I loved him, I wanted to fix him. Sometimes we can't fix everything, and like someone else said to Rainrot. This is not a perfect world, and not everyone has the finances to dump good money after bad keeping a dangerous horse as a lawn ornament.

                  Baymare, you have a crappy decision to make, I feel for you. I wish you luck and all the best for whatever you decide. We are thinking of you. Stay safe.

                  Elippses Users Clique........Co-Founder Occularly Challenged Equine Support Group

                  Ellipses users clique ...
                  TGFPT,HYOOTGP

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    A little irony here . . .

                    My daughter checked into the local trainer who retrains often dangerous horses into good penners and ropers. My shoer told her that would be a fine option for her quirky gelding EXCEPT that the guy has been in the hospital for a week after having been bucked off and dragged by a horse he was retraining. IF he comes through this in one piece, he's thinking of going out of the retraining biz.

                    **If you're lucky enough to own a horse, you're lucky enough.**
                    **If you're lucky enough to own a horse, you're lucky enough.**

                    **author of It's a Horse's Life!**

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      some of us learn quicker than others, eh? Better late than never....

                      Elippses Users Clique........Co-Founder Occularly Challenged Equine Support Group

                      Ellipses users clique ...
                      TGFPT,HYOOTGP

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        I agree with Lilblackhorse and Katarine.

                        With all due respect, Rainrot, perhaps you have means to save this horse and others deemed unrideable. Congratulations if this is the case. Maybe you are be willing to take Baymare's problem horse off her hands and give it a home for the rest of it's life?

                        No one can possibly know what a person is feeling until they walk a mile in their shoes.

                        Some horse are just plain nasty. As a youngster a cowboy in our neighborhood sold us (my parents and I) a 3 year old quarterhorse gelding who when he gained some weight became a very dangerous, mean horse that was moved on to another home. I found out many years later that it was destroyed after having seriously injured a number of people. This horse was mental and mean. In his case it was genetic most likely as his mother and father were full siblings.

                        Baymare my heart goes out to you as this is a very difficult position you are in.

                        There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - DAVE BARRY
                        Libby

                        There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness". - Dave Barry

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          I have to agree with katarine, LBH, et al. Since baymare has limited finances -- to some degree -- why are people saying that she should pour the money into a dangerous horse when there are plenty of sane horses out there. I'm sorry, I do not buy into the idea that keeping him alive is automatically the most ethical thing to do. As maggymay and Spot, among others, will attest, once the horse leaves your hands, you don't have control over what people will do with it. Once he's been sold down the line a couple times, people will probably start forgetting or ignoring his story, because they've never actually seen it happen. What happens then? If an ignorant person gets on the horse 5 years from now and is maimed or killed, is that -- intense suffering because you failed to act -- more ethical than ending the horse's life with an injection? The euthanized horse, IMO, doesn't suffer. Is it more ethical to pass him on when, should he ever do this again, the next person might not give him the courtesy of a peaceful death? There are just too many sane horses out there and too few caring horsepeople out there to continue pouring resources into a horse strictly because of a moral argument about death.

                          Just some thoughts....baymare, do whatever YOU are comfortable with. It's an awful situation to be in, and I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

                          Life is short; make fun of it.
                          The plural of anecdote is not data.
                          Eventing Yahoo In Training

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Sometimes, whether we'd like to or not, we have to be responsible to our horse and to our fellow humans, but humanely euthanizing a horse that is a danger to others. It's not just being selfish not to pay for the horse to be retired somewhere. What if you did pay for the horse to be retired, and a nearby kid decided it'd be fun to climb the fence and go for a ride. Horse throws kid, kid is seriously injured or killed, parents, and parents' lawyers come after you for everythng you have. Think it wouldn't happen? Think again. Thousands of dollars in legal fees later, you could still risk losing your home, your life savings, your kid's college education, or your retirement. Of course we love our horses. But we love our families and our fellow man as well, and have responsibilities to them too. Sometimes those responsibilities conflict, and we have to do the best we can to make the right decision.

                            Schoolmarm -- good point. Sounds like you've looked into some of the more obvious ideas. Tough situation. One that's bucking with someone standing next to him makes me think of severe pain somewhere, a bee sting, or (don't laugh -- I had one that did this: one of those mongo bomber horse flies that really really hurt when they bite. Had one that lost it when they came around, was great the rest of the time), particularly if there have not previously been ground manners problems. Still, sounds to me like you're trying to work through the problem and making some good guesses at it. Not an easy one.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Why don't you just send the horse to rainrot and let her deal with it?

                              Do I dare
                              Disturb the universe?
                              -T.S. Eliot

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Schatten02:
                                Okay, go ahead and flame me here...

                                i have never met this horse. but nothing that anyone has said here has convinced me he is a maliciously dangerous animal. i think to put him down would be such an awful thing.

                                MAYBE he needs more training, becuase right now it sort of sounds like he has been trained to throw fits. every time he does, he gets rewarded.

                                i don't understand why the talk of putting him down however...
                                there could be vet issues, and if you can't afford to pull out all the stops in terms of that, it would be SO unfair and even cruel to put this horse down.

                                MAYBE there are no issues, but how could you put him down without knowing?
                                to be perfectly honest, this is sort of making me sick.

                                i know there are dangerous horses out there. i've known a few myself.
                                i'm just not so sure that this is the horse's problem.

                                if you can't get him checked out, sell him to someone who CAN. lots of people, talented and very good riders with little money will take a chance on a horse like this.

                                please please don't put him down until you have exhausted every other possibility. adjust his, grain, turnout, amount of work. get him fully checked out by a vet.

                                http://community.webshots.com/user/l...></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                I absolutely could NOT have said it better myself. Also, slc, I agree with alot that you are saying.

                                *Britney*
                                ~Rush Hour~

                                "He has galloped through young girl's dreams, added richness to grown women's lives, and served men in war and strife." ~Toni Robinson
                                **Proud owner of a spunky Alydar grandson**

                                *Britney*
                                ~Rush Hour~

                                **Proud owner of a spunky Alydar grandson**

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  baymare, I have terrible that you are being faced with this decision. I have been reading over this thread, and unless I missed this, I was wondering a couple of things.

                                  How long have you had this horse? And how long have you been riding him? How long ago did these incidents start? And was it just twice that he has had these bad episodes, or has he "felt good" on other occasions, but not as severely?

                                  Secondly, what kind of diet is he on? Maybe he is receiving feed that has too much energy? How much turnout does he get a day?

                                  Since he was an OTTB, how long did he race? How many races did he run in? And was he a successful racer, or just too slow to cut it?

                                  What kind of saddle does he go in? Maybe he needs some sort of padding underneath it. I made the mistake of putting on the wrong girth this weekend on my friend's old foxhunter & he reared up because it was pinching him. Maybe there is an issue with the tack. It might be unlikely of course since he has been fine before.

                                  Do you know when he was gelded (I'm assuming he's a gelding?).

                                  Maybe after examining these questions, maybe you will see that there is something you have not examined.

                                  I believe that you should look into selling him. Or maybe look into one of the "Last Chance" farms that takes in problem horses. A "tough love" trainer may be able to make a difference. And one last question, what have you done to discipline him after these incidents?

                                  Again, baymare I am very sorry for this, but I do not believe putting him down is necessary, or even an option.

                                  - Lindsay -

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Rainrot got me to thinking about camps that focus on ground work. There are several theraputic facilities for people with eating disorders, chemical dependencies, etc... that use horses as part of the therapy. I don't think riding is part of it - just caring for the horse, grooming, ground work etc... I have included some links below for you to take a look. If he is good on the ground this may be a really nice life...getting groomed several times a day - eating treats and getting lovies...sounds like the life.

                                    www.canopycove.com

                                    www.recoveryranch.com/program.html

                                    www.raderprograms.com

                                    Secondly, I'm going to give you another story to think about. When I was 18, I purchased a lovely 17 hand TB off the track. I spent a year as a working student with a great trainer. I showed him his 2nd year off the track in the adult amateur's - we were champion for that state at the end of the year. This horse could flat jump - I would have people come from all over the show grounds when he was in the ring. On top of that he was my baby - he would lay down in his stall and I could sit on his back - not saying this was the smartest thing to do. In fact, I would advise everyone NOT to do this. He was to the point that I wouldn't bother warming him up in the ring the morning of the show - I would just take him on a ride around the show grounds. Once in the ring - I could ride him on the wonderful loose rein, right to the base, and he was a powerhouse off the ground. I sold him to one of Danny Robertshaw's customers. He went GREAT - was suppose to be the next Protocol - for Danny. It was beautiful to watch. Danny's customer was made an offer they couldn't refuse and the horse was sold to one of Charlie Weaver's students. Weaver and the horse had major issues. Weaver is a great rider, but the horse was hanging his legs and was uncontrollable. I would just like to note that the horse Never hung his legs under then. From there Weaver sold the horse to one of Norman Dello Joio clients and to make a long story a little shorter...Norman couldn't ride the horse - he reared, bucked, had fits, etc... Dello Joio is obviously a very good rider. It was just a bad match...The horse was donated to a great riding college - has a very happy life where he is loved. He is in a program - the much needed program for TB's. They say occassionaly he has a fit and because of something that happened between Danny and the school he acts like an idiot at horseshows - so he isn't able to go to horseshows. He does just fine at home. The more advance riders ride him. So, some colleges do have horses that aren't perfect....

                                    Best of luck!!

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Yet another follow-up.

                                      First . . . GotSpots, there was not a bug or bee anywhere near the horse when he launched his hissy fit. I wish we could chalk up his behavior to something that simple. I've been in the horse business for 42 years and have spent my share of time in unplanned turf inspections thanks to an attack on my otherwise calm horse by a nasty B-52. This was nothing like that. This was a horse who wanted the rider off him for no reason other than the voices in his head. I checked him over from stem to stern. His entire body was still twitchy the next morning! Today, two days after the fact, and on reduced rations, he's back to his normal self. His eyes are no longer rolling in his head and he's stopped twitching. It's as if the entire incident never happened.

                                      Meanwhile, back at the ranch, my daughter contacted the last two dealers who had this horse and BOTH of them want him back! We've chosen the one who made us an offer we can't refuse. For $200/month she will take him and retrain him. If we want him back after she's assured us that he's completely sane, then the deal is done. If not, she will sell him for us. If he pitches her on her head and she deems him unsafe to ride under any circumstances, he comes back here and we will deal with the next step, whatever that might be. This gives him some time to come down off the feed and grass and corn oil and prove that he's as good a boy as everyone always thought he was. Whether he winds up back with us or with another owner who will love him to death, he's being given the best possible chance for a long and happy life.

                                      I'm heartsick over this situation, believe me. This horse has been a super doll, and we had great plans for him this summer. But the small children's lives that are at stake here have to be the priority. It's not just the legal liability issue; it's the moral issue of putting a child on a horse known to forget he's got a rider. The change in his feed was not so great as to allow us to simply ignore what he did. He made a bad decision, and we're just lucky he made it with two experienced riders on his back, not a 5-year-old in her first lesson.

                                      Baymare, I wish you luck! This is not an easy thing to deal with. Hopefully in a week or two I'll stop having nightmares about it and life will go on. I wish you the same.

                                      **If you're lucky enough to own a horse, you're lucky enough.**
                                      **If you're lucky enough to own a horse, you're lucky enough.**

                                      **author of It's a Horse's Life!**

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Got it. Sounds like a good plan for him, balancing out both what's right for your program and clients and still giving him a chance to redeem himself. I always wish there was some tangible thing we could point to when they go off like that (much as I hate hitting the ground -- love the phrase "unplanned turf inspection" -- at least I know why).

                                        Comment


                                        • Any update on this situation?

                                          *Britney*
                                          ~Rush Hour~

                                          "He has galloped through young girl's dreams, added richness to grown women's lives, and served men in war and strife." ~Toni Robinson
                                          **Proud owner of a spunky Alydar grandson**

                                          *Britney*
                                          ~Rush Hour~

                                          **Proud owner of a spunky Alydar grandson**

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