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Pay more for papers?

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  • Pay more for papers?

    so I've been husband horse shpping off and on this spring. Been looking for a horse with a bit less get up and go then my endurance horses for him. Went this afternoon to look at a nice little registered 1/4 gelding -advertised as trail only experience(which is what I was looking for. I liked him, he rode well (didn't know a lot) but was quiet and a nice size etc.
    Got around to discussing price, which had been listed in the add. then.. she adds 'If you want his papers its 1500$ more then his listed price"

    say what?

    I've never had this before, I sell & buy horses all the time, if they have papers I 've never ever thought of charging more for the paper.. is this some common practice I've just never been aware of?
    Originally posted by ExJumper
    Sometimes I'm thrown off, sometimes I'm bucked off, sometimes I simply fall off, and sometimes I go down with the ship. All of these are valid ways to part company with your horse.

  • #2
    He's a QH, so w/o them, he's nothing. With properly transfered papers he can show in any QH show and people who know pedigrees will know what he's bred to do. But w/o them, he's just what you're looking at.

    If you ever look to resell him, the papers could be important to many prospective purchasers.

    And yes, I've heard of the practice before. But to add a 1/3 or half to the purchase price is just greedy.
    ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
    Check out my Kryswyn JRTs on Facebook

    "Life is merrier with a terrier!"


    • #3
      Ugh, I hate this selling practice. It results in horses being separated from their papers. I know you can't ride papers and I know geldings aren't breeding stock, but I have always believed that having papers provides some basic information that is valuable in a sale. In my registry, papers give you the registered ownership chain and that is very useful.
      If you are looking to do performance awards of some type (and I know the OP is only looking at husband horse), it also becomes important to have papers.

      I sell all of mine with papers. I would walk away from any deal that didn't.
      Where Fjeral Norwegian Fjords Rule


      • #4
        Agree with Ironwood.

        But $1500 is one heck of an upsell
        IIWM, I'd offer maybe $500 more (dependent on the original listed price: i.e: asking $1500, offer $2K) and walk away if that wasn't accepted.

        For resale - if it ever came to that for you - those papers could help you a lot.
        *friend of bar.ka*RIP all my lovely boys, gone too soon:
        Steppin' Out 1988-2004
        Hey Vern! 1982-2009, Cash's Bay Threat 1994-2009
        Sam(Jaybee Altair) 1994-2015


        • #5
          The extra $1500 is way out of line. She's hoping to get lucky. He may not even be her horse, perhaps selling for someone else. What's she going to do with them if you don't "buy" them anyway?? Keep them, put them on another horse or send them in and mark the horse as deceased?? Yeah, right.

          Also, check REALLY closely that all markings match. Ustabe, QH papers were swapped all the time and any discreps were explained with "the AQHA made a mistake". As an aside, I knew of a race horse whose papers didn't match and the new owner actually got AQHA to change the markings! Turned out, I could have outran faux race filly.

          Anywho, I never guaranteed the papers matched on any horse, just passed them along and didn't charge any extra.

          As for papers establishing an ownership claim, I've heard of people setting up a vanity registry to make papers for their grade horses just for the ownership claim. Kind of overkill in my book.
          GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!


          • #6
            This practice only continues because people reward the behavior by paying extra for the papers.

            Personally, I'd pass just on principle, especially when she's asking for $1500!


            • #7
              Originally posted by crewgirl34 View Post
              This practice only continues because people reward the behavior by paying extra for the papers.

              Personally, I'd pass just on principle, especially when she's asking for $1500!
              I would also be tempted to pass on that horse and let the seller know why.

              First, it is shady to pull that on you, not have brought that up front, before you come try the horse.

              Second, the papers may not be the ones for the horse, if they just buy and sell them and keep the papers on some and use them for others, which you may wonder, after what they pulled on you.

              Third, beware, the horse may have Impressive on his papers and if so, he will be dead in the water if you want to sell him later with his papers, not even figuring that he may be HYPP N/H or H/H and you end up with a sick horse in your hands.

              I think that the AQHA will look suspiciously if not suspend members that do what that seller is doing.


              • #8
                I would worry about the ethics of any buyer that tried that, how do I know that those are really the horses papers? If this is normal for them then how many papers do they have laying around that they can claim belong to the horse?

                and really I feel that papers "belong" to the horse as they are their identification and "proof" of who they are and their age and sellers that do this are only harming the animal later down the road in life.

                unless you are totally in love with the horse I would walk and tell them why


                • #9
                  oh just had an odd thought, you can always say well then since he is a grade horse he is only worth "purchase price - 1500.00" to me and see what the seller says


                  • #10
                    Given what you want to do with the horse I would pass on the papers.....You are looking for safe and while you don't mention the asking price without papers, I would expect that the price is reflective of your basic trail horse....I have had a number of horses with papers.....QH and TB.....Quite honestly, other than the curiosity factor of "who's his Daddy", they get shoved into a box and never looked at again....And when it came time to sell the cute little QH mare I owned at one time, they bought the horse regardless of the papers....

                    If the horse suits your purpose and is otherwise priced decently, get a bill of sale if you are concerned about ownership, and enjoy
                    Crayola Posse: Mulberry


                    • #11
                      Bluey has an Excellent point here - I would also wonder if the seller is hiding something (IE the animal might even be HYPP positive and so far asymptomatic...)
                      Eternal Earth-Bound Pets Independent Contractor.

                      All I want is to know WHAT HAPPENED TO THE CHICKEN???


                      • #12
                        AQHA, AHA, not a single one of the registries really do anything about the horse losing it's papers. Having played the auction game in good ole Quarter Horse land papers sell quite nicely and can make a $200 dollar horse with decent training into a $2000 horse that qualifies for x, y, z championship next year. No one is going to question it and few breeders can look at a line up of horses 5-10 years old and say that one or that one is mine.
                        1. You can file a lost paper report = $ to the registry
                        2. It's not illegal to sell a horse without it's papers.
                        3. plain bays and chestnuts are easy to come by and some will pay more if they think it's a famous or fashionable offspring.

                        It's also the time to fill out the transfer and get the papers in the new buyer's name. I'd walk away and tell them why as I'm with the rest in it's a horrid practice.
                        Adoring fan of A Fine Romance
                        Originally Posted by alicen:
                        What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                          ... I think that the AQHA will look suspiciously if not suspend members that do what that seller is doing.
                          This. Call the AQHA and ask the innocent question; "gee, I'm looking at this horse and here's what the seller is telling me ..."

                          If you ever tried to resell the horse, possible Impressive breeding aside, the papers are proof of age also.


                          • #14
                            I hate this practice...I've seen it more with dogs than horses and I think I hate it even more with horses. Papers are no guarantee that a horse will have a wonderful life but it does add to his value in many people's eyes. I think, unless I was planning to keep the horse for his entire life - no matter what - I might not care but what if you don't get the papers and then need to sell him?
                            "My biggest fear is that when I die my husband is going to try to sell all my horses and tack for what I told him they cost."


                            • #15
                              I would report this person to AQHA. Get the horses registered name from the seller, verify it by looking up on AQHA site and then report them and the horse. Perhaps nothing will come of it, but I would also let the seller KNOW that I reported them. The papers ARE supposed to go with the horse. And AQHA does not condone this practice, as then, the papers can be "matched" to another horse and sold with that horse! Trust me is has happened a LOT and AQHA does NOT like that!!!!

                              From the AQHA rulebook:

                              "(f) Seller’s Responsibility: The owner of record at time of
                              433555_045_070_Reg.qxd 12/6/10 1:42 PM Page 63
                              sale has the responsibility for completing an AQHA transfer in its
                              entirety and for delivery of it to AQHA.
                              (1) The seller must provide on the transfer report the correct
                              name and registration number of the horse, date of sale, name and
                              address of buyer, and signature and address of seller. The seller shall
                              immediately deliver the transfer form, along with the registration certificate,
                              to AQHA, along with any other documents required to complete
                              the transfer of ownership. Payment of the required fee as specified
                              in rule 222 shall be a matter of private negotiation between the
                              buyer and seller and may be paid by either of them, but such fee must
                              accompany the transfer, with the membership status of the buyer
                              determining the applicable transfer fee.
                              (2) Auction Sale: For a horse sold through an auction,
                              the seller may deliver to auction management the registration certificate,
                              along with a properly completed transfer report, and instruct
                              the auction representatives to obtain the name of the buyer and his
                              address, and to send the registration certificate, the completed transfer
                              form and required transfer fee to AQHA on the seller’s behalf.
                              Ultimate responsibility for completion and delivery of the transfer
                              report to AQHA, along with any other documents required to complete
                              the transfer of ownership to the current owner, shall continue
                              to remain with the seller.
                              (3) Automatic Suspension: Upon 15 days prior
                              notice of such intended action, for violation of the seller’s responsibility,
                              rule 224(f )(1) regarding either a direct sale or auction sale, the
                              Executive Vice President may automatically suspend a member and
                              deny him privileges of AQHA or deny a nonmember privileges of
                              AQHA. Such sanction shall terminate upon full compliance by the
                              sanctioned person.
                              (g) Any alteration or defacement, change or amendment of a
                              completed transfer will necessitate verification.
                              (h) When a horse is claimed at a recognized race track, the
                              racing secretary shall collect a transfer fee and membership fee, if
                              necessary, from the claimant which shall be forwarded to AQHA,
                              together with the registration certificate, a written report of the race
                              showing the date of the race, and the name and address of the person
                              claiming the horse. Upon receipt of such fee(s), certificate and
                              report, AQHA will complete the transfer without the report being
                              signed by the record owner. If the notice of claim and the supporting
                              documents are received by AQHA within 14 days of the claim,
                              the transfer will receive free special handling rush service."


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Bluey View Post

                                I think that the AQHA will look suspiciously if not suspend members that do what that seller is doing.

                                Call AQHA...Do you know the horse's registered name? We had an issue once where the woman from whom we bought a horse didn't send the papers and transfer with him and then (after months of pestering) sent the wrong papers. I stopped dealing with her and dealt directly with AQHA registration dept. AQHA is a good organization and they want to promote the breed along with good business practice.

                                I would be very firm with the sellers and say that this isn't standard practice and that you expect the papers to come with the horse. I would worry about someone retaining the papers for your horse as they are a legal documentation of ownership and without transfer, the horse is still theirs unless you have a bill of sale...In which case you can speak to AQHA about using a bill of sale to get the transfer done. If the sellers get nasty, REPORT them to AQHA and use word of mouth to spread the news about them. Shady, shady, shady. Best of luck! Remember that AQHA is a family friendly organization and they are on the side of legitimate business practices, so I would seek advice from them.


                                • #17
                                  Count me as another who would walk away and tell the seller why. I hate that practice.


                                  • #18
                                    I would at the very least ask to SEE the papers in question, and write down pertinent information (registration #, sire, dam,etc) If seller refuses, I would be extremly suspicious.
                                    "When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade."


                                    • #19
                                      Asking a different price for papers is not unheard of. I guess the assumption is the horse is now more valuable. I guess they assume you KNOW today that you will always (or never) want those papers and the seller figures he can charge you according to how you think you'll use the horse. I personally hate it because what happens is half the time people buy without the papers. Then when the horse one day goes up for resale, he's dropped in value and some buyers may think his value is on par with grade horses. Anything seller does now that harms value of the horse later is not great for you or the horse IMHO.

                                      What I don't understand is the way of advertising the unpapered price but in the ad describing a papered horse - if I understood you correctly. IMHO if he was going to have different prices it should've been advertised up front or at least told you during the 1st phone call.

                                      If you do continue to pursue this horse, ask to see the original papers now. If I had a nickel for every time a seller says the horse is "papered" but at the time of delivery the papers vanish, can't be found, are in the mail, whatever -- and never arrive. Make sure the papers are definitely for this individual horse and that they're correctly filled out to be signed over to you. A red flag has of suspicion has already gone up for this seller, so from this point on I'd want everything he claims in writing and in front of me before he even gets a deposit.
                                      Veterinarians for Equine Welfare


                                      • #20
                                        As mentioned above, I bet the papers the seller is associating with this horse aren't even his. You should absolutely report this to the AQHA!
                                        Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion.... ~ Emerson