• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

Negligence, or risk of training?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Negligence, or risk of training?

    The following is a theoretical question. The events listed did happen, but most are very old, only one is recent. My question is, for the following events, would you consider any of them to be blatant negligence by the trainer (and the owner should take legal action), or would you consider these to be accidents that happened in the course of training.

    Note, none of these events happened to me, but my information is first hand so if more info is needed, can provide more details. All the horses mentionned were between 7 and 10 years old and were trained at least w/t/c. Only the first horse was in training specifically for tieing, the other three were getting finishing work done.

    Case #1: Horse tied using a belly rope. Horse fought rope and sustained serious cuts and nerve damage before being cut loose. Some permanent scaring and nerve damage. Horse still could not tie after this, and had new issues with being ridden.

    Case #2: Horse tied in stall after a training session rather than being cooled out. Horse got head under rope, panicked and hit head, dying instantly. There was not a prolonged struggle. Happened very quickly.

    Case #3: Horse being free lunged in arena in draw reins. Tripped and could not rebalance, going head first into the wall. Permanent damage to spine. Never again rideable.

    Case #4: Day before horse is to be tried out by potential buyer, trainer has horse in arena for exercise. Horse spooks at kids playing with arena equipment so trainer hobbles horse to get him to stop spooking. Horse damages both front deep digatal flexors but does not call owner and lunges horse the next day pre-try out. Buyer comes out and sees a lame horse with swollen front legs. Lost sale and extensive rehab/treatment.

    Interested to hear opinions (not looking for legal advice!) on when an injury is taken as negligence vs accident.
    Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

  • #2
    To me, 2 sounds like unfortunate accident.
    1, 3 and 4 sound like an owner not doing his homework as to where they were sending their horse and what methods would be used by "trainer." There might be some recourse if owner was told one thing, and then trainer did another.
    "When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade."

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by CHT View Post
      The following is a theoretical question. The events listed did happen, but most are very old, only one is recent. My question is, for the following events, would you consider any of them to be blatant negligence by the trainer (and the owner should take legal action), or would you consider these to be accidents that happened in the course of training.

      Note, none of these events happened to me, but my information is first hand so if more info is needed, can provide more details. All the horses mentionned were between 7 and 10 years old and were trained at least w/t/c. Only the first horse was in training specifically for tieing, the other three were getting finishing work done.

      Case #1: Horse tied using a belly rope. Horse fought rope and sustained serious cuts and nerve damage before being cut loose. Some permanent scaring and nerve damage. Horse still could not tie after this, and had new issues with being ridden.

      Case #2: Horse tied in stall after a training session rather than being cooled out. Horse got head under rope, panicked and hit head, dying instantly. There was not a prolonged struggle. Happened very quickly.

      Case #3: Horse being free lunged in arena in draw reins. Tripped and could not rebalance, going head first into the wall. Permanent damage to spine. Never again rideable.

      Case #4: Day before horse is to be tried out by potential buyer, trainer has horse in arena for exercise. Horse spooks at kids playing with arena equipment so trainer hobbles horse to get him to stop spooking. Horse damages both front deep digatal flexors but does not call owner and lunges horse the next day pre-try out. Buyer comes out and sees a lame horse with swollen front legs. Lost sale and extensive rehab/treatment.

      Interested to hear opinions (not looking for legal advice!) on when an injury is taken as negligence vs accident.
      I'm a trainer. And in all honesty it's hard to make a negligence call on any of your examples... other than #2. The training techniques cited are widely accepted but the application of the equipment, the condition of the equipment, the condition and suitability of the training area and the skill level of the "trainer" are all unknown variables. All horse activities are inherently dangerous to animals and humans. All I can offer is... if these incidents all occurred at the same facility, do not walk but RUN to another one. ~FH
      "Anything done in anger is abuse. Proper correction and reprimand are done in silence with thoughtful intent. Your horse knows the difference." ~FH

      Comment


      • #4
        Not a lawyer, so only my opinion.

        #2 - accident. Owner could have done the same thing. Nothing to do with training.

        All the others - negligence. I can't imagine a circumstance in which #3 & 4 would ever be appropriate, or considered good training technique.

        #1,.............judgment call, but I'm leaning towards negligence. If a trainer is using a technique that clearly isn't working and the horse is injuring itself before trainer's eyes, it's time to try something else; preferably before further damage is done.
        In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
        A life lived by example, done too soon.
        www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

        Comment


        • #5
          As someone who has no knowledge of law or most training techniques: 2 sounds like an accident.

          1 would depend on how long the horse fought. If it somehow managed to sustain this damage in seconds, I'm not sure if a negligence case could be brought. But if there was no way to cut it free immediately, if the trainer had to scramble for something, prolonging the struggle, then maybe? I think it'd be a hard case to win.

          3, I suppose because you're not supposed to lunge in those? I don't use them, just looked them up on wiki, but I've seen lots of people lunge in different kinds of reins meant to bring the horse's head down. It would depend on whether it's common practice, even if it is wrong; if yes, a negligence case would be hard to win. And pretty impossible if the owner knew of the trainer's methods.

          4 to me is clear negligence, because the trainer didn't call the vet/owner. Whether hobbling the horse or not was negligence could be argued, but what happened after the incident really can't.
          Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Coanteen View Post
            3, I suppose because you're not supposed to lunge in those? I don't use them, just looked them up on wiki, but I've seen lots of people lunge in different kinds of reins meant to bring the horse's head down.
            In this instance, the horse was free longed. In other words, poor thing had its head tied down and was turned loose and chased around. A method usually employed by those too lazy or ignorant to actually longe a horse properly, after taking away its ability to properly balance itself. Not to mention that it teaches the horse absolutely nothing, except that some people are idiots.
            In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
            A life lived by example, done too soon.
            www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

            Comment


            • #7
              1 negligence
              2 accident
              3 negligence
              4 GROSS negligence
              jmho
              If i'm posting on Coth, it's either raining so I can't ride or it's night time and I can't sleep.

              Comment


              • #8
                Not meaning to hijack, but Catersun, I LOVE your signature!
                In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                A life lived by example, done too soon.
                www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                Comment


                • #9
                  It's never appropriate or "accepted training technique" to free-lunge a horse with any sort of tie-down reins - that is an accident waiting to happen as you have no control over horse's speed, direction etc; when using draw reins, side reins etc, horse should always be at the end of a lunge line to which a trainer is attached!
                  Further they are not meant to be used on horses that are not already well versed in lunging, as to do otherwise is dangerous to the horse

                  Any "trainer" involved in these incidents is not any sort of horseman - not even #2.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by FloridaHorseman View Post
                    The training techniques cited are widely accepted
                    On what planet, pray?
                    In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                    A life lived by example, done too soon.
                    www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It also sounds like all those could have been avoided if trainer(s) had not taken shortcuts or been too lazy to properly train/handle the horse. Again another area where it is important for horse owners to do their homework before sending their horse away.
                      "When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CHT View Post
                        The following is a theoretical question. The events listed did happen, but most are very old, only one is recent. My question is, for the following events, would you consider any of them to be blatant negligence by the trainer (and the owner should take legal action), or would you consider these to be accidents that happened in the course of training.

                        Note, none of these events happened to me, but my information is first hand so if more info is needed, can provide more details. All the horses mentionned were between 7 and 10 years old and were trained at least w/t/c. Only the first horse was in training specifically for tieing, the other three were getting finishing work done.

                        Case #1: Horse tied using a belly rope. Horse fought rope and sustained serious cuts and nerve damage before being cut loose. Some permanent scaring and nerve damage. Horse still could not tie after this, and had new issues with being ridden.

                        Our vet 40 years ago already was telling us the rope around the middle to stop a horse that sets back when tied caused more broken spinal processes and other injuries that he ever wanted to tend to.
                        I have seen that technique repeated as a proper way to tie those horses time and again in horse magazines, all those years.
                        That is stupid, doesn't work, but it is what many trainers still do, would be hard to convince a jury that the technique is not standard.


                        Case #2: Horse tied in stall after a training session rather than being cooled out. Horse got head under rope, panicked and hit head, dying instantly. There was not a prolonged struggle. Happened very quickly.

                        Sounds like an accident and those just happen.
                        Could have happened any time the horse was tied up and there, if cooled properly and tied to the arena fence or trailer.


                        Case #3: Horse being free lunged in arena in draw reins. Tripped and could not rebalance, going head first into the wall. Permanent damage to spine. Never again rideable.

                        An accident, could be because of the drawreins, could have happened without them, hard to determine why it happened as it did with enough certainty to make a case out of it, even with the less than standard use of drawreins.

                        Case #4: Day before horse is to be tried out by potential buyer, trainer has horse in arena for exercise. Horse spooks at kids playing with arena equipment so trainer hobbles horse to get him to stop spooking. Horse damages both front deep digatal flexors but does not call owner and lunges horse the next day pre-try out. Buyer comes out and sees a lame horse with swollen front legs. Lost sale and extensive rehab/treatment.

                        Too much wrong there, improper use of hobbles if the horse had to fight them, longing horse that was injured, not calling the buyer's trip out off, what was that trainer thinking???

                        Interested to hear opinions (not looking for legal advice!) on when an injury is taken as negligence vs accident.
                        I think that, when you go to court with a case, you have to look past what the case itself is, to if you can make everyone understand what your position is.
                        Some times, being right is not enough, if you can't prove it beyond doubt.
                        Some of those you may, others, it depends.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I agree with Catersun.

                          And I think all four are piss poor excuses for training and/or very bad judgments and safety protocols. I know leaving a horse tied in a stall is common practice in some barns and disciplines. IMHO its a bad practice no matter how common. Never leave a horse tied unattended. It's a rule in my barn and it's on the barn rules and in the boarding contract. Accidents can still happen of course, but a persons poor decision doesn't have to contribute to them happening more often.
                          2016 RRP Makeover Competitor www.EnviousBid.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            IMHO

                            1- Possible accident depending on how long it took to cut away the horse. If the trainer just left him there while he was freaking out, then that's negligence.

                            2- Accident

                            3- Ignorance by the trainer. Unfortunately that scenario is all too common

                            4- GROSS negligence.
                            Fils Du Reverdy (Revy)- 1993 Selle Francais Gelding
                            My equine soulmate
                            Mischief Managed (Tully)- JC Priceless Jewel 2002 TB Gelding

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ESG View Post
                              On what planet, pray?
                              On planet Reality. Just because a training technique doesn't fit into someone's personal preference (say, traditional ranch breaking vs NH for example) doesn't mean it hasn't been used for hundreds of years as a standard and often successful practice in a world that exists outside of the one another person prefers to lives in.

                              I started training horses over 40 years ago but no longer use those harsh methods, techniques and painful equipment that was prevalent in the industry back then. What happens on the serious working ranch is a different world than the mostly pleasure horse world we discuss on this and other boards. But there are some old tricks that occasionally come out of my bag when necessary and appropriate.

                              The training techniques that were being conducted (1, 3 and 4) with the cited horses are still not unusual in today's environment. As I stated in my original post, I cannot attest to the capability or appropriateness of the person(s) using them. Even the most subtle NH techniques can be damaging in the wrong hands. All I can add is that I do use a belly rope, draw reins and hobbles... occasionally... when absolutely necessary. I use them properly and always have a sharp knife to rush in and cut away restraints if a horse inadvertently gets himself in trouble, which I have had to do once in a while but very infrequently. And I have never had a horse suffer any major injuries, physical or psychological, as a consequence.

                              Feel free to Google my screen name and find out for yourself if I am an advocate for the horse or not. And maybe draw a breath or two before you are so quick to condemn something you do not fully understand. Most especially when it's based solely upon an anecdotal bulletin board post lacking most of the pertinent information necessary to draw an informed conclusion.~FH
                              "Anything done in anger is abuse. Proper correction and reprimand are done in silence with thoughtful intent. Your horse knows the difference." ~FH

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                #2 might not have been using the best practices, but IMO it is not negligence. Pretty much everyone has had a horse get its head under the rope at some point, and all it takes is once for an accident like that to happen. And that sort of thing can happen so fast that even if you're right there, you can't free the horse.

                                The other three...well, #1 is not a good training method, but it is a common one. I personally would consider it negligence, but I don't know if you can prove it if the trainer argues that it is an accepted training method. I agree with the poster who thought the length of time the horse struggled for might be a factor.

                                #3 is kind of the same. You should not ever free longe with the horse's head tied down, but I have seen it done pretty often. Again, certainly a dangerous practice but I don't know the legal definition.

                                For #4, hobbling like that is pretty common if the horse is used to hobbles. Again I don't think it is the best practice, but I've seen it a lot. However I do think that this example is clear negligence, because the horse should not have been left in the hobbles if it was fighting them (and it seems like it would take a lot to damage the DDFTs, I've seen horses fight hobbles like crazy and be fine), and the longe work the next day (presumably not just a short circle or two to see if the horse was lame, but to quiet the horse before the buyer tried it) was clearly negligent.

                                If this was all the same trainer, whether they are legally considered negligent or not they certainly should not be in business.
                                exploring the relationship between horse and human

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  No, not the same trainer or even the same barn....one incident was very recent, the other three over the span of the last 20+ years.
                                  Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Free lunged in draw reins? That is a terrible accident waiting to happen and it's sickening to think that someone would do that...or any of the things on your list. Belly ropes? Leaving a horse tied in a stall unattended? Trainer injuring the horse and not mentioning it?

                                    Horses can get themselves into all kinds of trouble without the help of 'trainers' like the ones you have described.

                                    Someone should give each of those people a copy of the United States Pony Club 'D' Manual because a beginner in Pony Club learns more about safety in one year than the 'trainers' you described.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Case #1 - Accident. A technique that is acceptable and can work, albeit with greater risk I suppose. I personally prefer to address tying differently, however many others use different techniques - some work, some don't, some carry more risk than others, and some carry more risk than others due to the nature of the horse, the trainer's application, whatever. I will say I know people who have used this technique in the past, successfully. There are a lot of factors at play.

                                      Case #2 - Accident. Horse should have been cooled out first, at the very least so he was more relaxed and not on an adrenaline high (if indeed that was the case) after just having worked. However, horses catch their heads under ropes while tied. It happens. Was the horse supervised, at least partially?

                                      Case #3 - Accident. Poor judgement on the trainer's part imo; side reins should not have been placed on a loose horse. That said, it sounds like a fluke the horse stumbled and then fell head first into a wall. How often does that actually happen?? Poor judgement, but not negligence per se. There are more facts to consider here as well - how exactly was the horse being worked? Was he being pushed possibly too far? Were his toes long? Was the owner informed of the use of this method? Etc etc etc.

                                      Case #4 - Possibly negligence, but there is a lot of info missing. Did the trainer know for certain the deep digital flexors (specifically) were injured? Or could the swelling have been attributed to something else (minor)? Was the horse accustomed to hobbles? Was he struggling once they were on, and what was the trainer's resultant response? Either way, the trainer should have informed the owner immediately. As for the use of the hobbles - well, not my cup of tea in that specific situation, but that trainer made their decision based on what has worked for them in the past, their knowledge of that horse, and the specific circumstances at that time. Sounds like poor judgement... but perhaps not necessarily, perhaps things just went wrong this time.


                                      When you send your horse to a trainer, you are trusting that trainer's approach, fully. That trainer might make mistakes or make calls you (later) do not agree with. They might make decisions that, in retrospect, were not wise. We make mistakes and poor decisions sometimes as trainers - we're only human and are learning throughout our careers and lives too. So it's crucial to pick a trainer whose techniques and approach you agree with fully (and therefore to really research that trainer!), and I think, within reason, to accept you are taking some risk that accidents may happen or that that trainer might make a mistake or bad call or what.
                                      ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                                      ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        All were stupidity, even #2. The reason #2 happened would have been because the horse was tied on too long a rope. I know that people do it, but to my way of thinking and teaching of my kids etc was that you leave no more than about 16-18 inches of rope between the horse's halter and the object that the horse is tied to, and NEVER low enough for the horse to get their head under it. Yes, it has happened to all of us at one time or another, but again, it was a stupid move on my part. The trainer should have tied the horse right.
                                        Last edited by Gnalli; May. 7, 2011, 03:48 PM. Reason: corrected a typo
                                        http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

                                        She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X