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Behavior question - celebratory kicking out

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  • Behavior question - celebratory kicking out

    I have 6 horses - 4 mares, 2 geldings. One mare is in charge, the others fall in line below her, at least how I understand their hierarchy.

    None of my horses have ever kicked toward me in excitement but the "lead" mare. What I mean is that if I'm carrying hay out to the paddock (or letting them out on a new snow covered paddock/new grassy field, etc.) she will squeal, spin, kick in excitement and kick out - sometimes it appears, very deliberately toward me. She does it to the other horses too, and they will also do it toward each other but none but the one mare will do it to me. This is a very respectful mare who is NEVER naughty while being handled and is a dream to deal with on the ground (challenging in the saddle but she only introduced to the saddle as a teenager and is 19 or 20 now).

    There have been close calls and I get furious with her - but I want to react properly to correct it.

    But what is this behavior? As I said, they quite naturally do it to each other when they are excited about that wagon of hay coming, or their first turnout in a new pasture, whatever, but why is my good-natured mare doing it to ME? This behavior seems very normal in any herd configuration I've ever had and it looks to me like play when they are in the field (albeit rough!). Is it celebratory and done as play, or is this a threat? And what would you do to correct it?

  • #2
    Who cares WHY she is doing it, celebratory or threatening, it's rude and it has to stop! Any horse that raises a leg in that manner to me... I make them think I'm going to KILL THEM for about 10 seconds, and then its back to business as usual.

    Anyways.. she is the "lead mare" and she's acting like it to the other horses and now to you as well. My guess is that she doesn't really respect you on the ground, she is just inclined to behave at that time.. perhaps likes being groomed/fussed over, etc. You state she is challenging under saddle... and now she is challenging you in the pasture.

    She needs to be put in her place.
    2016 RRP Makeover Competitor www.EnviousBid.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Hard to say how to correct it without being there. You might use two leads if she is spinning/kicking as soon as you unsnap the lead rope. So when the first one comes off, you can stop the spinning behavior with the second rope. You might carry a lunge whip and smack her bottom if she kicks out at you.

      I would make her react in a submissive manner, as she makes the horses in the herd lower than her do. She needs to politely get the heck of your way since you are the "boss mare". Not her.
      2016 RRP Makeover Competitor www.EnviousBid.com

      Comment


      • #4
        This is where slinging buckets at her bee-hiney and screaming like a rabid banshee come into play.Ye Olde John Lyons I have three seconds to make you think you are going to die. Then it's over.

        Scare the pee outta her.

        YMMV.

        Comment


        • #5
          I would take a longe whip with me when feeding hay, and guard that hay until she was respectful and submissive enough for you to allow her to approach.She who controls the eats is boss

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by raff View Post
            I would take a longe whip with me when feeding hay, and guard that hay until she was respectful and submissive enough for you to allow her to approach.She who controls the eats is boss
            Oh yes, I have seen definate changes in attitude in doing this. They eat ONLY when I say they can, and that's when they approach me quietly, ears forward head down. And it seems they change in every aspect to me then.
            I want a signature but I have nothing original to say except: "STHU and RIDE!!!

            Wonderful COTHER's I've met: belleellis, stefffic, snkstacres and janedoe726.

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            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by katarine View Post
              This is where slinging buckets at her bee-hiney and screaming like a rabid banshee come into play.Ye Olde John Lyons I have three seconds to make you think you are going to die. Then it's over.

              Scare the pee outta her.

              YMMV.
              I used this method the other day - and then questioned my techniquw (and sanity becase I was cussing at her too...God what the neighbors may think!).

              I used to carry the lunge whip but it never seemed to matter to her. I hate to hit her with the whip or threaten her with it when I lunge her........but....hopefully she'll make the connection between being bad and behaving and how the whip responds .

              VCT, no, she doesn't whip around when unsnapped. She REALLY does behave when handled - I want to say she's in a different frame of mind when being handled and when at iberty. She ONLY does this kicking out when I come out to the paddock into their "fun". Never, ever any other time. Which is why I'm so curious. And her challenges under saddle have more with her abilty to learn and my ability to teach her. She isn't challenging me...just to clarify.

              I feed round bales now so this only comes up occassionaly, but it did happe as they went on to the grass for the first time last week.

              Comment


              • #8
                She is not excited, or celebrating. She is dominating and claiming the hay. You better be sure you make it clear to her that she is BELOW you in the pecking order.
                Check us out on Facebook at EVER AFTER FARM

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                • #9
                  Just echoing the above posters - YOU have to be the boss. When it's feeding time, she clearly thinks she's in charge and needs to learn otherwise. Reponding with a smack of the whip is really just how another horse would respond to put her in her place, so rather than feeling bad about hitting her, you can think of it as speaking her language. You WANT it to be unpleasant for her when she kicks out at you - unpleasant enough that she is inclined to stop doing it. Dressage whips are also good for this and a little easier to handle than a lunge whip.

                  I used to ride a horse who was sort of similar, but his issue was with turnout. He was lazy as a sloth under saddle, a sweetheart when being handled, but somehow, as soon as you let him loose in the turnout, he would EXPLODE and take off bucking and squealing - a little too close to the gate for comfort. I used the 2-lead thing and that helped a lot, but it was really frustrating in the meantime.
                  If the pony spits venom in your face or produces a loud roar, it is probably not a pony. Find another. -The Oatmeal

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                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Thanks guys. I will be way more assertive with her. In fact, I think I want to set up the situations a few days in a row so I can correct her consistently and be sure she understands - I'll do it until she stops. I appreciate the input.

                    ETA: I wanted to clarify what I said above about using the whip - I'm NOT afraid to correct her (whether with my hand, bucket, whatever) but I am reluctant to use the lunge whip because I lunge her and don't want her to fear it. In this case though, I recognize that the lunge whip is my safest option so I'll just reinforce the difference. Thanks again.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by hundredacres View Post
                      None of my horses have ever kicked toward me in excitement but the "lead" mare. What I mean is that if I'm carrying hay out to the paddock (or letting them out on a new snow covered paddock/new grassy field, etc.) she will squeal, spin, kick in excitement and kick out - sometimes it appears, very deliberately toward me.
                      Sorry I thought you meant she did it when you were giving hay/approaching hay AND when you were putting her out during rather exciting times.
                      2016 RRP Makeover Competitor www.EnviousBid.com

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                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        NO problem. Actually, once she's stopped goofing off and is eating (or in the case when they've been let out for the first time because of bad weather and they are all settled down) I can hang out and groom her or whatever. It's just those moments of immediate anxiety when she forgets about everything else!

                        And go figure - I carried hay out this morning and she just stood there and stared at me. I had a dressage whip because I left the lunge in the arena. It seems her heat cycle may have something to do with her pissiness because she's pretty affected by that. We'll see how it goes tomorrow!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          This is where slinging buckets at her bee-hiney and screaming like a rabid banshee come into play.Ye Olde John Lyons I have three seconds to make you think you are going to die. Then it's over
                          this is what I do...of course the neighbors think I am crazy but what the hell!
                          Humans don’t mind duress, in fact they thrive on it. What they mind is not feeling necessary. –Sebastian Junger

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Changing the subject but not really: once I was in the paddock with the horses when my daughter came in (then 5) and wanted to pet one of the newer horses. I had a pitch fork in my hand because I'd just laid hay out for them. When my daughter approached this new gelding lunged at my daughter, so my motherly instinct kicked in and I nailed the horse on the rump with the pitch fork handle and chased him off screaming like a lunatic. To this day, my daughter re-tells the story and says that I "STABBED" him with the pitch fork. *rolls eyes*.......so yeah, if someone is driving by at the moment I'm hurling a backet at the horse, who knows what rumors may start! lol

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              She is coming at you like that (very non threatening in her horsie view though) because you are the dominant force in the herd and she being a horse is testing the force field (or bubble). I don't let it bother me unless it is actually in the area that I predetermine is my space. Then I react, bucket, lead, what I have in my hand to throw, I do (carefully but quickly). Horses always know where their feet are going in a kick, and know how to deliver the lethal blow. I never ever let them closer than six to ten feet in a feeding herd situation for that reason. You may need some round pen work but it would have to be a bigger round pen so that she works outside of your predetermined space (and hers so she does not feel pursued), and learns that she has to work as soon as she is too sassy for you. I don't mind kicking up the heels in play or exuberance. You know the horse, you know the difference.

                              Be safe, be kind, be in charge.
                              "We, too, will be remembered not for victories or defeats in battle or in politics, but for our contribution to the human spirit." JFK

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Calamber, see, this is why I asked! I am questioning the motive of this particular kicking frenzy because I've seen ALL of the horses do it, even to her, and they've never made contact and it always seems to be a "happy kick", for lack of a better term for it. This behavior seems more complex - well, less obvious than other behaviors and I just couldn't name it comfortably. I have a pretty good understanding of herd dynamics but really, nobody understands everything....I just had a feeling I have been interpretting this situation incorrectly and this is why I asked about it. I appreciate your insight very much.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I have 3 horses, who when turned loose in the field will all run away kicking up heels in what I presume is happiness. NONE of them would do it in proximity to me ( I mean within actual striking distance) and all of them would clear off the piles of hay if I told them to. None of them would do it under saddle, and though all of them might sometimes do it on the longe, they would be corrected if they did. If the horse kicks out in reaction to something you've asked him or her to do, or in close enough proximity to have actually struck you with different aim, this is not acceptable behavior and needs correction.
                                  "The Threat of Internet Ignorance: ... we are witnessing the rise of an age of equestrian disinformation, one where a trusting public can graze on nonsense packaged to look like fact."-LRG-AF

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I guess I just don't see why it matters what the motive behind the kick out is....

                                    ... it's just unacceptable behavior.
                                    2016 RRP Makeover Competitor www.EnviousBid.com

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by VCT View Post
                                      I guess I just don't see why it matters what the motive behind the kick out is....

                                      ... it's just unacceptable behavior.
                                      How are you going to run after a horse that just kicked up her heels, with what? A lunge whip? Then you are too close and if you get closer, you put yourself in danger. She said she was kicking up her heels in her direction but not sure what this meant.

                                      1) She is not near enough (which is good) to put immediate pressure on her, hence my suggestion she throw something.

                                      2) She is not sure she is being a threat.

                                      3) Why punish a horse for exuberance? I just would not.

                                      I do not like to pursue a horse out of anger, and as most anyone knows (I hope), horses' will not remember why you are running after them and doing whatever you do to put the fear of God into them if 1) It is too late 2) It is a minor infraction and does not really require the FOG. I save that for some pretty major infractions since I do not like to bully and harangue, all that gets you is either intimidated horses or aggressive horses, depending on their temperament.
                                      "We, too, will be remembered not for victories or defeats in battle or in politics, but for our contribution to the human spirit." JFK

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Again, today - nothing. I carried food out (even though I don't need to and can open the gate to the grass field) and she just stood there with the others. None of them are exuberant about much right now. The weather sucks and they're just tired I think.

                                        And I have to agree with Calamber. I will carry something with me and I will correct her if she's too close but I won't correct with the FOG like Calamber mentioned. I will just remind her that playing that close is not acceptable. It will be bubble assurance to have the whip with me for sure.

                                        When I got back in to horses as an adult I had to be taught that there is a difference between horses being afraid, horses being rude, and horses misbehaving. When I was a kid I was taught to correct them for ANYTHING and with absolute force. It was a horrible thing to learn as a child and young person and to this day I get pangs when I think of some of the cruel things I did out of my own ignorance. I'm not afraid to smack a horse hard when it needs it - I do it and tell others to, especially for biting, striking, raising the foot to kick, etc. Another infraction that gets a strong correction is ignoring my space - but I'm very careful with that one and try my damnedest to respond appropriately. I always will correct that behavior, but because every instance that causes a horse to do that is different, I try to be flexible with my response. A horse bouncing into my space because he's untrained requires a different response when a horse that refuses to go where I am asking so he bowls into my space as a show of refusal. And there is yet a whole different response for when a horse is moving in to my space to get away from a feed bag that blew into view or even yet another, for a horse who wants to shove me so he can have my space.

                                        I think it's important to know why - which is why I asked. And I appreciate all of the input because it's all valid and applicable. Thank you so much!

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