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Jimmy Doyle charged with sex abuse of a minor

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  • Anne, I agree completely, and ghazzu did say it best.

    Pacificsolo, thank you for your work and your strength in your continued recovery.

    One caveat to my belief that you cannot blame the victim -- I do think an underage person can have be blamed and have responsibility -- for lying about sexual contact/abuse. If a minor makes up stories and lies about the supposed abuse/contact to get back at someone, or to spite the adult, etc., then that minor is guilty of making false accusations and should be blamed for that. That's why I believe in the laws that require substantiating evidence to confirm the accuser isn't lying. That is not blaming the victim, because in that case the perpetrator of the wrong is the false accuser, and the victim is the person wrongly accused.
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry

    Comment


    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:


      And the article siad he was only charged with misdemeanors, not felonies.

      Thanks for the clarification.

      Janet
      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      "Only" misdemeanors? *sigh*

      Well, what that that means (according to the law as quoted by Serendipity) is: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>ambiguious or unsubstantiated forcible complusion <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is a far cry from "wanted" advances. Just may mean there was no one around to PROVE that it happened or was unwanted.

      I still believe it is in the best interest of our society to place the burden on the alleged perpetrator, NOT the alleged victim. which apparently is how the law is written, even if there are people who disagree.

      ------------------------------
      I'm just the mom....

      Comment


      • In addition to Portia's comment, let's not forget that there is also the element of "prosecutorial discretion." That's an element of any prosecution that permits the prosecutor NOT to pursue any case they don't think has sufficient evidence. It happens all the time and is not reviewable by a court.

        ****
        NYHR

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It happens all the time and is not reviewable by a court.
          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          Does this mean that the court could not overrule and prosecute anyway and that the case would be dead at that point (yes, it is a stupid question, but you confused me)? I'm not a lawyer and I DO appreciate you and Portia's legal input!

          Comment


          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anne FS:



            It's not. It IS the same thing legally. No 'but she asked for it', no 'but she dresses like a tart', no 'but she had sex with XXX.'

            As someone working on multiple political campaigns your response alarms me. Also, it explains a lot about our politicians. Did they get it from you, or did you get it from them, this idea that the law isn't the law if (insert whatever justification you want)?

            You'd best advise your politicians differently than you have been.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            Anne, respectfully, please go back and read my posts- because you are way not on target here. I made it VERY clear, I think, that I was stating MY opinion, and NOT the law, of which I have no idea. This is what I wrote:

            "And I, by no means whatsoever, know much of anything about NY State criminal law re: sexual misconduct with minors.

            I am just saying that, to me (and though the law IS the law, we all know the value of the court of public opinion too), it's one thing to make unwanted sexual advances with a minor and another to simply have sexual relations with a minor (that is, relations minus the "unwanted" part).

            That "unwanted" makes a big difference."

            In a nutshell, for what I hope is the last and final time, here is what I was saying in my previous posts:
            -ANY guy who has sexual relations with a 14 year old who is 48 is a total, and complete, sleazball. Period, end of story.
            -HOWEVER, in terms of the severity of just how much of a scum he is, and in turn, in terms of how severe the punishment should be, there is a difference (in MY mind) between unwanted sexual advances and "wanted" sexual advances... and the girl's role in the scenario has to be considered then.
            -In the end, without being cognizant of all of the circumstances surrounding the case, without the advantage of sitting in that courtroom and hearing each one's side, it's not up to us to say whether the guy should be banished from this earth OR whether 100 hours of community service would suffice, if the charges are true.

            Again, here, MY opinion. Not what I believe the law is or should be. You're right, the law is the law. And I fully trust that that law is in place because enough of our leaders saw fit for it to be there.

            And Anne, I would challenge you to find the perecentage of politicians who follow and believe in the law vs. those who don't... I think you'd be surprised at how high it is. Be careful not to let a few bad apples disort your view of elected officials on the whole and make generalizations that they're all liars and cheaters who believe themselves above the law. And, btw, I'm just another little campaign worker. And as for me "advising," I'm just another little campaign worker trying to get people I like into office, I don't exactly have access to the Oval Office. Maybe some day though!

            As much as many of you blame me for siding against the victim (which, by the way, I AM NOT!!!!!), I blame you all for taking sides at all when so very much is unkown. Hypothetically, if these charges are true, my heart goes out to all.

            Serendpity- I do not feel slighted at all- I just was a dummie and read your post out of context... one of my biggest pet peeves in a country like this is those who complain about the system and don't do anything to fix it- I got a little defensive when I thought you were accusing me of being one of those people- sorry!!!

            HSM- yes, agree to disagree we must I think! Only please, do NOT think that I am defending a man guilty of sexual misconduct or thinking the victim is at fault! I just think the victim has a role- and that is where we seem to differ.

            To everyone (Heidi!)- Any unwanted sexual adcances made, whether the victim is a hooker or everything peaches and cream, are WRONG!! I just, PERSONALLY, feel that when "unwanted" is not a part of the formula and everything is consentual, in the case of a minor, things change a bit and yes, it does matter whether or not the minor in question has a history of being "provacative" or is a baby at 14.

            Ok, so, round three, ding ding ding! Attack, attack me!

            And, thank you clemsonrider!

            Support F.O.B.B.

            Comment


            • Yes, that's what it means. It's more complex than I presented it because a DA's office is not just one person making all the decisions, most if not all cases are handled by a team of lawyers and investigators. What would most likely happen is that the police or ADA would take the victim's complaint, and then the investigators would examine the evidence. If after investigation there was no evidence or even no crime that was actually commited, the prosecutor can decline to present the case to the grand jury.

              ****
              NYHR

              Comment


              • By "only" I was NOT implying that ANYTHING was excusable. Just that it clarified what he had (vs. had not) been charged with.

                Janet
                chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                Janet

                chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                Comment


                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Does this mean that the court could not overrule and prosecute anyway <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                  I am not a lawyer either, but-
                  "The court" doesn't prosecute. The court JUDGES the case brought by the prosecutor, and the defense brought by the defendant.

                  The court can't overrule the prosecutor's decision not to pursue the case, or to reduce the charges, any more that the court can over-rule (in general, I realize that incompetence can change this) a defendant's decision to plead guilty.

                  Janet
                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                  Janet

                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                  Comment


                  • Thanks Serendipity!

                    And rockstar, at risk of getting attacked myself, I think I understand where you're coming from and I have to agree.

                    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Rockstar's comments may come into play during (if the defendent is found guilty) the sentencing phase. If he attacked a harmless child, then he deserves full punishment. If, however, she was actively involved and / or led him to believe something else about her age, then his sentence should be lighter. At that point, it's not fair to claim innocence of her age if she truly wasn't..

                    Ack, they're coming to get me!!!!

                    Comment


                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:

                      "The court" doesn't prosecute. The court JUDGES the case brought by the prosecutor, and the defense brought by the defendant.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      My apologies, lazy language on my part.

                      Comment


                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
                        By "only" I was NOT implying that ANYTHING was excusable. Just that it clarified what he had (vs. had not) been charged with.

                        Janet
                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        Fair enough.

                        ------------------------------
                        I'm just the mom....

                        Comment


                        • rockstar-

                          First of all, I do not want to attack you, I promise! And yes, you HAVE made it very clear that you think if the allegations are true, the acts are reprehensible. Thank you for that.

                          I understand that you are not defending this specific alleged perpetrator, nor are you blaming this specific victim. When I talked about "blaming the victim", I was referring to the global problem that this represents, and the way it is often used to get criminals "off the hook". Think the Matthew Shepard case, think the Preppie murder case (both murders, I know, but the most well-known examples I could think of off the top of my head.) The danger in suggesting that *maybe* the victim in any case could have played a role in what happened is that it perpuates this mindset. The only exception I can think of is the one Portia gave, where it is found beyond any doubt that the minor lied (not about their age, but about what heppened.)

                          That said, I think I am done here - I suspect this thread will soon be closed anyway if no additional horse-related issues come into play.

                          ------------------------------
                          I'm just the mom....

                          Comment


                          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
                            One caveat to my belief that you cannot blame the victim -- I do think an underage person can have be blamed and have responsibility -- _for lying about sexual contact/abuse_. If a minor makes up stories and lies about the supposed abuse/contact to get back at someone, or to spite the adult, etc., then that minor is guilty of making false accusations and should be blamed for that. That's why I believe in the laws that require substantiating evidence to confirm the accuser isn't lying. That is not blaming the victim, because in that case the perpetrator of the wrong is the false accuser, and the victim is the person wrongly accused.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Thank you for pointing this out Portia. Unfortunately, this happens a lot more than it should. Even if the accusation is dropped, just the fact that it was once made haunts the (adult) victim for a LONG time. (Not saying ANYTHING about the case under discussion- just my own personal experience.)

                            Janet
                            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                            Janet

                            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                            Comment


                            • It needs to be noted that children who report sexual abuse or assault often take back their stories when they see their adult caretakers getting upset, angry and irrational about it. The child may have been blamed by the adult, perhaps the adult they told didn't believe the disclosure, or the child realizes that, depending on the perpetrator in question, the family may break up or the perp may be threatening the child with violence. Recanting in these cases, which are VERY common, does not mean the child is lying. It DOES make the child more vulnerable, though. Just another general statement, not specifically about the case in question.

                              And there is nothing difficult about an adult asking the question, how old are you? before engaging in sexual contact with someone who is obviously younger. That's the adult responsibility by law (and according to common sense), even when the younger person lies about his or her age.

                              Comment


                              • Thanks, hobson, for bringing that part of the issue up.

                                Rockstar, if you don't mind me asking, which party do you work for? What are the ideas about sexuall assault that you'd like to see changed, and how?

                                Comment


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
                                  And there is nothing difficult about an adult asking the question, how old are you? before engaging in sexual contact with someone who is obviously younger. That's the adult responsibility by law (and according to common sense), even when the younger person lies about his or her age.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  But if the child has lied, she has lied, and will probably lie again when asked... If she acts older, looks older, and says she's older, then how is the man wrong? In my opinion, he is not a criminal at that point.

                                  Comment


                                  • Well, if you are determined to believe that there is an epidemic of dishonest, sexually predatory teenage girls out there who are lying about their age and sexual activity in order to ruin the lives of men, then whatever. It would be nice if people would expend that kind of outrage on the lying perpetrators, of which there are exponentially more, except people never want to believe that someone they like and trust could be a common criminal. It's easier to blame girls.

                                    Comment


                                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
                                      Well, if you are determined to believe that there is an epidemic of dishonest, sexually predatory teenage girls out there who are lying about their age and sexual activity in order to ruin the lives of men, then whatever. It would be nice if people would expend that kind of outrage on the lying perpetrators, of which there are exponentially more, except people never want to believe that someone they like and trust could be a common criminal. It's easier to blame girls.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Unfortunately, my experience has been the opposite- that the powers that be find it easier to believe the lying, vindictive teenager, and blame the innocent adult.

                                      Janet
                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                                      Janet

                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                      Comment


                                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If she acts older, looks older, and says she's older, then how is the man wrong? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        How about if she looks older, acts older but shows as a junior?

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
                                          Well, if you are determined to believe that there is an epidemic of dishonest, sexually predatory teenage girls out there who are lying about their age and sexual activity in order to ruin the lives of men, then whatever. It would be nice if people would expend that kind of outrage on the lying perpetrators, of which there are exponentially more, except people never want to believe that someone they like and trust could be a common criminal. It's easier to blame girls.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          What the hell? I was not saying that there is an epidemic of slutty girls out there preying on defenseless gentlemen, I was merely pointing out that yes, there ARE little harlots out there and yes, they do lie. And if they lied once, they could lie again. To deny that fact is ridiculous. And yes, I have first-hand experience with lying, bratty little girls who will do ANYTHING to get what they want... It's not far-fetched.

                                          They exist. That was my point. I have repeatedly said that could have been a part of the case, WE DON'T KNOW. I have also said that if the man did it, he deserves to be punished.

                                          There are two sides to every story, don't just automatically assume that the girl is lilly-white!

                                          A friend of mine is experiencing a nightmare situation in her family. A girl they adopted as a young child has been a complete terror. The couple's other children are wonderful (including other girls). This girl has lied about everything, has had problems at school, just a terror. Her parents are awesome and have tried everything with her.

                                          Her latest way to fight back? They told her she couldn't do something so she called the cops and said the father has been molesting her. It isn't true - if you knew the family you would know this. They have been going through absolute hell and have had their lives ruined because she wanted to go out on a Friday night.

                                          Would you care to defend her? Oh, she is 14...

                                          Comment

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