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Jimmy Doyle charged with sex abuse of a minor

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  • Since someone asked -- sex abuse (in NY) is characterized by sexual contact when he or she subjects another person to "sexual contact" without that person's consent.

    Sexual contact is defined in the NYPL as: any touching of the sexual or other intimate parts of a person not married to the actor for the purpose of gratifying sexual desire of either party. It includes the touching of the actor by the victim, as well as the touching of the victim by the actor, whether directly or through clothing.

    The difference in the degrees is that under 2nd degree (the higher charge) sex abuse must involve a victim that is either 1) incapable of consent OR 3) less than 14 years old. 3rd degree sex abuse can essentially happen to any minor, except in certain circumstances where two minors close in age are the two principals (not the situation here).

    ****
    NYHR

    Comment


    • And, correct me if I am wrong, Serendipity, "statuatory rape" can be claimed when any "adult" goes out with a "child" - it doesn't mean physical rape. Someone else might explain this better - I remember it from my Boarding School days, when the Williams guys wouldn't date us (Juniors and Seniors) because of Mass' statuatory rape laws - essentially, if they were over 18 and we were under 18 - even if they were 19, and we were 17, they could get into big trouble. They were warned against it.

      So, the discussion of statuatory rape doesn't apply in this situation, given the indictment.

      Lastly, most people probably don't realize it, but it is very much against the USOC (as well as the USAEq, FEI, IOC) Code of Ethics to have a coach to have a sexual relationship - of any sort - with a student. Can be compared to a Doctor having an affair with a patient - the same boundaries are supposed to be set. Not that that stops anyone . But it should, and certainly any sort of sexual relationship with a minor is inappropriate, and, if the minor is precocious, it IS STILL the responsibility of the ADULT to just say no and walk away.

      There was a trainer in NJ who was charged with sexually abusing his girl students - he made them promise not to tell their parents under the threat of taking away their riding privileges. Last I heard, the case was still in the courts, but the evidence (more than one girl) was pretty stacked against him.

      All sad and rather sick.

      It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!
      co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!

      Comment


      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:

        Lastly, most people probably don't realize it, but it is very much against the USOC (as well as the USAEq, FEI, IOC) Code of Ethics to have a coach to have a sexual relationship - of any sort - with a student. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

        WOW!!! Where does the rulebook say that??? Wait till I tell Mr. Spunky!!!

        "If you feel you had a bad ride, how do you think your horse feels?"
        \"If you feel you had a bad ride, how do you think your horse feels?\"

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
          And, correct me if I am wrong, Serendipity, "statuatory rape" can be claimed when any "adult" goes out with a "child" - it doesn't mean physical rape. Someone else might explain this better - I remember it from my Boarding School days, when the Williams guys wouldn't date us (Juniors and Seniors) because of Mass' statuatory rape laws - essentially, if they were over 18 and we were under 18 - even if they were 19, and we were 17, they could get into big trouble. They were warned against it.

          So, the discussion of statuatory rape doesn't apply in this situation, given the indictment.

          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          No, not anymore, Weatherford. I don't know how the law used to read, but requirements for all types rape in NY must include intercourse (and all degrees in NY are felonies). Other types of contact would be charged under sexual abuse, sexual misconduct, or something similar that has a misdemeanor charge. But laws change all the time....e.g., until recently, only women and girls could have most of these crimes commited against them...now either sex can be the victim.

          On a seperate but important note, I should have mentioned before that there's a provision in the NYPL that sex offense charges canNOT be brought solely on the testimony of the victim. All complaints of sexual offenses must be supported by corroborating evidence that serves as some verification for the victim's complaint.

          So I suppose in reference to your first comment again, Weatherford, that anyone *can* certainly claim anything, but the law does try to protect both parties with the requirement for corroboration.

          ****
          NYHR

          Comment


          • This is a generalization....but....

            As I've been reading and following this thread, the concern over blaming the victim continues to haunt me.

            It took me 11 years to admit and deal with being date raped by a guy I believed really loved me.

            I've worked with rape survivors and I can't tell you the dammage our public does when it portrays the victim as the instigator.

            I realize that some women would actually stoop to such low levels as lying about assault. However, many women never report their rapes because of fear of the system and how the public sees the victim as the one to blame.

            Most sane and relatively healthy women/men do not make up stories like this.

            I worked closely with a Violent Crimes detective who tried his best to collect evidence to be able to prosecute the suspect, but many times, after explaining to the victims how their names may come out in court, and people may choose not to believe them, they refuse to bring charges.

            I feel like crying right now, out of anger and sorrow, that only a person that has had part of them stolen forever, can never get back.

            I hope the truth comes out, and that if these things happened, the victim will be able to heal....hopefully better and faster than I did.

            Comment


            • Pacificsolo, good for you for helping out others who have gone through the same awful thing that you did. It must be very difficult for you, but at the same time it must be very comforting for them to talk to someone who really does know how they feel.

              Comment


              • Thank you pacificsolo for addressing the danger of the "blame the victim" syndrome so eloquently. And kudos to you on your own personal healing and recovery, and for speaking up here.

                ------------------------------
                I'm just the mom....

                Comment


                • Thanks you, Coreene and HSM. It means a lot to me.

                  God has been so good to me in my healing process.

                  Comment


                  • Somebody posted that it has too have been at least two years since this trainer had a student that was 14 years old. Why is that the assumption- does this man not normally train juniors? (serious question, I really dont know the answer)

                    Pacificsolo, kudos to you for being so strong and not only helping yourself but also helping others- I hope that provides you with a good deal of comfort.
                    * * * * * * * * * *

                    Comment


                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rockstar:
                      I am just saying that, to me .....it's one thing to make unwanted sexual advances with a minor and another to simply have sexual relations with a minor.

                      ...

                      And, it's one thing to prey upon some innocent little girl with, at best, a crush, and another thing to have a sexual relationship with someone that may, like I said before, be 14 going on 25.
                      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



                      It's not. It IS the same thing legally. No 'but she asked for it', no 'but she dresses like a tart', no 'but she had sex with XXX.'

                      As someone working on multiple political campaigns your response alarms me. Also, it explains a lot about our politicians. Did they get it from you, or did you get it from them, this idea that the law isn't the law if (insert whatever justification you want)?

                      You'd best advise your politicians differently than you have been.

                      Comment


                      • Can we say that (morally if not legally) "unwanted sexual advances" are EVEN WORSE than "apparently wanted sexual advances". Without in any way implying that "apparently wanted sexual advances" are in any way excusable?

                        Janet
                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                        Janet

                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                        Comment


                        • There is something very wrong in our horseworld and in our society in general when so many of us are willing to suggest that this or any victim of sexual abuse could bear any responsibility whatsoever for the event itself.
                          And it's because any of us at all think that way that these perpetrators continue to prey on innocent victims. It's sickening really....
                          While schools are trying to teach our children that they can and should demand that their personal boundaries be respected, we undermine and negate that knowledge and power by cutting the perverts some slack. Maybe she looked older, maybe she's 14 going on 25, maybe she "encouraged" it..... What crap! Total bull! How can any of us even consider it? This is the most disgusting form of physical/
                          psychological abuse possible. Using one's position of respect and authority to twist the victim's thinking and influence behavior to reach one's own perverted goals and satisfaction. Yes, this man is innocent until proven guilty under our laws, and yes, we have no idea what actually happened, but no, no, no, the victim is not responsible, ever....

                          Comment


                          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
                            Can we say that (morally if not legally) "unwanted sexual advances" are EVEN WORSE than "apparently wanted sexual advances". Without in any way implying that "apparently wanted sexual advances" are in any way excusable?

                            <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Why would we need to say that? Adult sexual advances/involvement with a child are just that - wanted or unwanted, any other excuses notwithstanding. The only potentially "acceptable" excuse would be if the adult really truly ABSOLUTELY had NO IDEA that the child was in fact underage (therefore they believed they were involved with an adult - a stretch in most instances but certainly possible).

                            Any other factors (motivation etc.) are totally irrelevant IMHO

                            ------------------------------
                            I'm just the mom....

                            Comment


                            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty:
                              There is something very wrong in our horseworld and in our society in general when so many of us are willing to suggest that this or any victim of sexual abuse could bear any responsibility whatsoever for the event itself.
                              And it's because any of us at all think that way that these perpetrators continue to prey on innocent victims. It's sickening really....

                              Maybe she looked older, maybe she's 14 going on 25, maybe she "encouraged" it..... What crap! Total bull! How can any of us even consider it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              I don't know the parties involved with the case in question, but speaking hypothetically, [B]the man may honestly not have known she was underaged. If that was the case(and again, I don't know any of the details, I'm just speaking about a fictional situation)then he should not be considered an abuser. How could he when he accepted her as an adult? If she lied about her age and he didn't know, she is not the victim, he is! C'mon people, the man may have done nothing more than go after a younger WOMAN (not child)... I hardly think that qualifies him a sicko perv... In this scenario*, he was in full compliance with society's laws...

                              *But of course, if he did know she was a child, then he is indeed a sicko perv and deserves full prosecution!

                              Comment


                              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty:
                                There is something very wrong in our horseworld and in our society in general when so many of us are willing to suggest that this or any victim of sexual abuse could bear any responsibility whatsoever for the event itself.
                                <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                OK, this statement I don't agree with. I don't agree with the 100% of it, the premise that *no* underage victim could *ever* bear *any responsibility whatsoever." There do exist underagers who know, want, like, & pursue sex with adults or with one special person.

                                Ghazzu said it the best of anyone on here:

                                "I don't care if a 14 year old ran into the adult's bedroom stark naked, holding a bottle of Maker's Mark in one hand, and a joint in the other.

                                It is still the responsiblity of the adult to throw a blanket over the child, and steer them to the door. At the very least."

                                Where I differ from rockstar is that it is up to the adult to refuse and repel all contact and not use the fact that if the underager knew & wanted the contact, that in any way mitigates the act. If the adult knows he/she is underage, case closed. That's the law. But that's different from saying that every 14yo in the world is incapable of having a knowledgeable sexual relationship. Maybe 99% are, but not 100%. People like Ghazzu mentioned do exist, but it can not be used as an excuse that you had sexual contact with them if you knew their age. Heck, probably some of our great-grandmothers were married anywhere from 14-16. (Like Loretta Lynn, married at 14 and a grandmother at 28!).

                                P.S. I'm not saying anyone's grandma drank Maker's Mark and smoked a joint at the same time.

                                Comment


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
                                  Can we say that (morally if not legally) "unwanted sexual advances" are EVEN WORSE than "apparently wanted sexual advances". Without in any way implying that "apparently wanted sexual advances" are in any way excusable?

                                  Janet
                                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Certainly we can say that...and, in fact, the law already makes that distinction -- unwanted sexual misconduct is a felony, while sexual misconduct where there is ambiguious or unsubstantiated forcible complusion, is a misdemeanor.

                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Catahoula:
                                  I don't know the parties involved with the case in question, but speaking hypothetically, the man may honestly not have known she was underaged. If that was the case (and again, I don't know any of the details, I'm just speaking about a fictional situation)[b]then he should not be considered an abuser. How could he when he accepted her as an adult? If she lied about her age and he didn't know, she is not the victim, he is! C'mon people, the man may have done nothing more than go after a younger WOMAN (not child)... I hardly think that qualifies him a sicko perv... In this scenario*, he was in full compliance with society's laws... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Sorry, Catahoula...but even in your hypothetical the adult male is not in full compliance with the law. As the responsible party (responsible because by law, minors are incompetant), the man is under the burden of determining her actual age before proceeding. So, he's still responsible for his actions and can't plead ignorance. A perfect example of "when in doubt, don't."

                                  ****
                                  NYHR

                                  Comment


                                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Serendipity:
                                    As the responsible party (responsible because by law, minors are incompetant), the man is under the burden of determining her actual age before proceeding. So, he's still responsible for his actions and can't plead ignorance. A perfect example of "when in doubt, don't."
                                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    There ya go!!!!

                                    ------------------------------
                                    I'm just the mom....

                                    Comment


                                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Catahoula:
                                      I don't know the parties involved with the case in question, but speaking hypothetically, the man may honestly not have known she was underaged. If that was the case (and again, I don't know any of the details, I'm just speaking about a fictional situation)[b]then he should not be considered an abuser. How could he when he accepted her as an adult? If she lied about her age and he didn't know, she is not the victim, he is! C'mon people, the man may have done nothing more than go after a younger WOMAN (not child)... I hardly think that qualifies him a sicko perv... In this scenario*, he was in full compliance with society's laws...

                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Serendipity:
                                      Sorry, Catahoula...but even in your hypothetical the adult male is _not_ in full compliance with the law. As the responsible party (responsible because by law, minors are incompetant), the man is under the burden of determining her _actual_ age before proceeding. So, he's still responsible for his actions and can't plead ignorance. A perfect example of "when in doubt, don't."

                                      ****
                                      http://www.nyhr.org<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[/QUOTE]

                                      By doing what, asking for her driver's license or age references? Sheesh, you all are tough dates! "Oh, I know you're cute, but before I go home with you, I'll need to see 3 photo id's and an age cetification from your doctor..."

                                      Updated to mention AGAIN that I've come across several 14 year olds who look older than me - a 32 year old!

                                      [This message was edited by Catahoula on Apr. 25, 2003 at 11:14 AM.]

                                      Comment


                                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Certainly we can say that...and, in fact, the law already makes that distinction -- unwanted sexual misconduct is a felony, while sexual misconduct where there is ambiguious or unsubstantiated forcible complusion, is a misdemeanor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        And the article siad he was only charged with misdemeanors, not felonies.

                                        Thanks for the clarification.

                                        Janet
                                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                                        Janet

                                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                        Comment


                                        • I'm not asking him to get anything...if it's something he wants to pursue, it's the citizens of the state of New York that require that he be certain. Or take his chances. One way or the other, the burden or the consequences will be his problem, not the minor's problem.

                                          Besides, think of it this way...do you really want to go down that road? Do you really want to craft a law that questions the motives and the intentions of the minor just to ferret out the few cases where it might have been a factor? Or would you just rather make the ADULT the legally responsible party with the burden of making sure his/her conduct falls within the boundaries of the law? Because that's the way we've got it now. The ADULT has the burden. And to protect the vast majority of CHILDREN that are victimized by adults, we've decided to err on the side of the children...by declaring them incapable of consent and making sure the adult acts like an ADULT.

                                          ****
                                          NYHR

                                          Comment

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