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Saddleseat/Morgan people...please help me understand my neighbor

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  • #81
    good thing the wicks are at a show! I havent told them I'm thinking of moving him yet!

    to all of you who are interested in eseing a saddlebred in action, there is a *great* video online-

    http://www.asha.net/History/pbsvideo.html

    Do the stars conspire to pin us down like butterflies? - Jets to Brazil

    Comment


    • #82
      Hobbypony - do you still show Arabians or do you own a different breed now? A long time ago I showed a half Arabian/half Saddlebred in hunter pleasure and I always loved watching the show hack classes because there were several transitions to each gait. The horses had to really work in those classes and I always loved the shadbelly coats the riders wore. I believe shadbellys are so elegant and clean looking with the white breeches. We went to an Arabian show here in Georgia last year but I missed that class

      Susan N.
      Susan N.

      Don't get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am, my attitude depends on who you are.

      Comment


      • #83
        This is a great topic... very few hostilities..

        Now... personally.. I don't think the chains and stuff is a good idea. But i'm really learning alot from this thread and really thinking more of the disipline... still not liking the chains though Maybe if i understood them more

        BUT... if we want to go on unfair to horses for not being turned out.. how about the halter horses who sit in their stalls day in and day out.... another disipline that stalls their horses quite often... their horses sit there in sweat things.

        I mean hey there's somthing you can critisize every disipline for...

        But that qoute and explaining the whole harnessed wildness thing. That helped a lot

        Thank you EVERYONE for this thread, I've learned so much. We should do this with diff disiplines often

        //Jennie\\
        "the hardest part isn't finding who we need to be,
        it's being content with who you are."
        See my albulm
        Jennie
        \"If you\'re a horse, and someone gets on you, and falls off, and then gets right back on you, I think you should buck him off right away.\"-Deep thoughts by Jack Handy

        Comment


        • #84
          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MyShadeOfPink:
          This is a great topic... very few hostilities..

          Now... personally.. I don't think the chains and stuff is a good idea. But i'm really learning alot from this thread and really thinking more of the disipline... still not liking the chains though Maybe if i understood them more
          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          Chains...not everybody's cup of tea...but I will explain them

          Chains are used to either encourage higher motion or help break up or encourage a certain gait. On a gaited horse inclined to rack, chains "up front" (on the front 2 feet) will encourage a horse to trot. Meanwhile, chains behind will encourage a gaited horse to rack by "breaking up" their trot and making it easier for them to step into a true rack.

          I'll tell you flat out...chains honestly do not make that big of a difference motion-wise. You can take them off and you'll have the same horse. They mostly help with the extra "jingle" on the hooves...sound, feel, etc.

          I don't know if you can post pictures, but here is a link to a picture of the chains that World Champion (one of the main SS tack shops) sells:

          http://www.ehorseequipment.com/detail.asp?id=2311

          The smallest weigh 2 ounces and the biggest weigh 8 ounces.
          (I run with 10 ounces of weight on MY ankles.)

          The big problem with chains is when they are used with chemicals which is *ABSOLUTELY* NOT done with any trotting breed (you can't use chemicals on a horse that needs to trot!) and to the best of my knowledge is trying to be prevented in the "main" breed that it has happened in.

          The other "device of horror" would probably be rubber developers, or "stretchies". (http://www.ehorseequipment.com/detail.asp?id=2257) A leather cuff lined with fleece is strapped around each hoof with a length of surgical tubing that is snapped onto the rings of the cuffs. The length of the rubber is determined by the stride a horse takes...you can't have them be too short or it is to physically exerting and can lead to muscle soreness, but you also cannot have them too long or the horse could trip on them. Common sense should show you the correct length and I have yet to see any injuries occur from the use of stretchies.

          The purpose of stretchers is for muscle toning/developing. In most horses it will also create a better shoulder roll which can lead to more motion. Most horses are warmed up in them for about 15 minutes at the trot only. If a horse does not like stretchies, they won't use them...I have seen some horses run around straight-legged to prevent using them. Obviously the issue is not forced. You can't "teach" a horse to use stretchies...either they do it, or they don't.

          I like to compare stretchies with some of the exercises I have done...I have both ran in bungies for resistance training, and also used them to build shoulder and arm muscles when I played volleyball.

          Hope that clears some things up! At least you will understand things a little better now.

          Comment


          • #85
            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bludejavu:
            I have to agree - I'm a ASB person and I've learned a few things too!! I just have to ask - how did you get your user name? It's really cute.

            Susan N.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            Used to work for a vet in the Southwest. Lots of cowboy clients. One day the phone rang, and one of the older guys was on the line. He needed doc to come out, "Ol' Sparky has a hitch in his getalong agin." Turns out ol' Sparky had stifle problems, and the cowboy's description was actually quite accurate!

            "I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
            -Louisa May Alcott
            "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

            Comment


            • #86
              I agree with everything said so far about chains. My experience is that the effect is generally short-lived because a horse gets accustomed to them so quickly. Normally, I use them trot and encourage them to elevate a little more on the front and sometimes to get them to think about their back legs as well. I will take them off generally to canter.

              Since we are in this vein, I am going to ask a question that I am a little embarrassed about because I think it is pretty elementary to anyone who rides a dressage horse. My question is would someone please explain the mechanics of a half halt to me. I have read that any breed can benefit by using half halts but have yet to understand exactly how it is executed. Normally I'd be afraid to ask but I'm "coming out of my shell here". Incidentally I have an ASB mare who will perform the most beautiful piaff and now that I have experienced a tiny portion of what a dressage horse can do - it is really beginning to interest me.

              Susan N.
              Susan N.

              Don't get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am, my attitude depends on who you are.

              Comment


              • #87
                Oh no, Susan, there are books and books about what a half-halt is. Pages of writing. Thousands of dollars spent every year to teach it. Not a silly question at all.

                Here's a quick, rough-and-tumble answer. There are technicalities, nuances, etc., and I'm sure others will jump in. Essentially, a half-halt is a split-second re-balancing of a horse, by connecting the hind end up to the bridle, without a change in gait or speed. A half-halt says to the horse "Hey, you, pay attention." It subtly asks the horse to shift his weight to his hind end, but it acts from the rider's legs and seat, and not primarily from the rider's hands.

                Essentially, as you are muddling around in a gait (say a trot), and you are going to ask for a canter transition in the corner. Now, being a thinking rider, you don't want your horse to trot-faster-and-faster-until-he-canters, but to strike off into a nice, energetic canter from the same trot you've been doing. So, before you get to the canter, you close your leg, still your seat, and squeeze the rein (like squeezing a lemon -- it's not a pullback or a grab), and then release. The idea is to ask the horse to push up to the bridle, and then reward the horse by releasing the pressure. Better to ask again with another half-halt than to hold on them, because by holding on them you give them something to pull on. You instead are saying to the horse "step underneath yourself, balance yourself, carry your own weight, we're going to do something." You use a half-halt before a transition, a turn, or a change.

                Hope that helps. There's lots more to it, but that's the basics.

                Comment


                • #88
                  My "country boy" Morgan benefitted greatly by being boarded at a show barn. He did not have the schedule like the show horses and went out with the gelding group that had regular turnout and more of a pleasure horse schedule but he got used to all sorts of activity.

                  I was impressed that he learned to tolerate the noises of the working horses that sometimes used chains and he learned that someone standing in the center of the ring with a plastic bag on the end of the whip going "crackly crackly - pop pop was not going to get him. As previously said in this thread...these things are used to encourage the horse to puff up and play...show animation. The horses I have seen really perk their ears, puff themselves up and SHOW themselves. It's lovely to see. Properly done, there is no fear. There shouldn't be fear or pain. At the Morgan shows I have attended the crowd on the rail can hoot, holler at their favorite and in some cases pound on the rail. Coming from a dressage background at first I was greatly surprised but...what fun.

                  Please note that when bustles are used with some Morgans- not to be confused with tail sets but similar looking - the tail is not cut in any way.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    There used to be a woman at the barn at which I board who had two Morgan show horses. They were never turned out and almost never ridden. She longed them in the round pen every day. She told me that Morgan show horses are rarely ridden (don't know if this is true or not). She also kept them blanketed when the weather was too hot for it, to keep their coats the way she wanted them.
                    People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... timey wimey... stuff.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #90
                      I got the whole scoop. I admit that I probably jumped to conclusions and coming straight out and asking "So, what kind of exercise program do you have for your horses?" was a very good thing indeed. This man is a registered nurse and has all sorts of crazy hours. He told me that alot of times he will take his horses out for a walk in the middle of the night when he gets home or turn them out one at a time while he cleans their stalls. He mentioned that he is always concerned with the shoeing when he turns out so he tends to take them for a walk instead. Concerning the mare, he would like very much to turn her out more BUT, she goes crazy with the bugs and will plow right through the pvc/vinal fence paddock (My mistake, I thought it was wood). He is actually very concerned with the flimsyness of the beautiful looking pvc and has just ordered electric tape to string up along the top two rails.

                      I feel better about the whole situation and I have all of you to thank! I can't tell you how much I have learned from this thread. Thank you all for a great discussion and enlightenment

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        I am so happy to hear that there is a logical and reasonable explanation for the way he handles his horses. Although we have board fencing, I have looked at the vinyl so many times because it is so pretty and neat - when a neighbor put some up down the road, I was so envious. Then in the middle of the night her horses crashed right through it and she did not know it until the next morning. Fortunately, when hers crashed through it, they just went into a bigger pasture, but it hit home to me just how much more strength is in a board fence (and I've had some crash through a wood fence as well in the past, but not as easily).

                        As for the reference to show Morgans not being ridden much - I have never heard that. Although I have never owned or shown a Morgan, our shows are frequently combined with Morgans and I know several Morgan trainers. The ones I know definitely ride their horses often.

                        On the subject of half halts - I think there's a little light bulb going off in my brain somewhere - apparently a half halt is a way to quickly collect your horse back underneath himself and get him in the correct frame again. If this is correct, then absolutely any horse could benefit from it - now I just have to figure out how to put it into play...

                        Joyrider - thanks so much for allowing me to somewhat change your topic. I just saw it as a golden opportunity and held my breath and went for it.

                        Susan N.
                        Susan N.

                        Don't get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am, my attitude depends on who you are.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          I'm baaack....had to skip out yesterday afternoon because I had lots of lessons scheduled.

                          I thought I would post this link - really nice Morgans here, the owner is Herbert Kohler Jr. (yes - as in Kohler faucets). I just also found out that Herb Kohler also has a part in Kevin Costner's movie Open Range. Apparenly he and Costner are buddies.

                          http://www.kohlerstables.com/htm/contents.htm

                          check out the photo album and take a look at the stallion Vigilmarch - awesome horse. I also like HVK Pavarotti
                          Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
                          Bernard M. Baruch

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            HHHHMMM... maybe chains aren't that bad.

                            NOW! What does everyone thing of going into the bad and the ugly?? The rumors and the things that don't happen? Such as the pepper and stuff like that?


                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by amwrider:
                            I thought I would post this link - really nice Morgans here, the owner is Herbert Kohler Jr. (yes - as in Kohler faucets). I just also found out that Herb Kohler also has a part in Kevin Costner's movie Open Range. Apparenly he and Costner are buddies.

                            http://www.kohlerstables.com/htm/contents.htm

                            check out the photo album and take a look at the stallion Vigilmarch - awesome horse. I also like HVK Pavarotti<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            very pretty That horse on the first page scared me though because it was so... ghostly?

                            //Jennie\\
                            "the hardest part isn't finding who we need to be,
                            it's being content with who you are."
                            See my albulm
                            Jennie
                            \"If you\'re a horse, and someone gets on you, and falls off, and then gets right back on you, I think you should buck him off right away.\"-Deep thoughts by Jack Handy

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Bestest thread on Saddleseat and gaited horses I've ever read!

                              Everything else was always a slugfest after the second reply, nobody ever bothered to explain the whole shabang! More of a deal *We have always done it that way* type of attitude...

                              Thanks everybody for explaining!
                              (But I still think putting 4 inch blocks under a Walker is awefull... I know, not your forte...but I just saw the TV add for the big thing here, comming up these days...makes me wanna cry! )


                              http://pub31.ezboard.com/fdalmatianp...ssageboardfrm1

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                MyShadeofPink - Pepper? I don't know a soul that uses it on a horse. Maybe I haven't been around long enough and maybe some of the old time trainers use some very antiquated methods but I'm wondering if you are confusing pepper with ginger? Also, I want to invite anybody who is going to be near Conyers, Georgia and has an interest in seeing some top notch trainers and horses to come see our largest in-state Saddlebred show. The dates are 9/17 thru 9/20 and it is a great show. If you come, please email me and we can meet in person. I can promise you this show will not bore you. Also, if you have never been to the Georgia International Horse Park, you need to visit at least once. It's beautiful.

                                Susan N.
                                Susan N.

                                Don't get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am, my attitude depends on who you are.

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

                                  NOW! What does everyone thing of going into the bad and the ugly?? The rumors and the things that don't happen? Such as the pepper and stuff like that?
                                  <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Pepper?...Do you mean ginger salve? This unfortunately is true but not everyone does it and it is illegal in most divisions. The USA Equestrian still allows it in some saddlebred performance sections, but it is banned from pleasure classes, Morgan classes and Arab classes.

                                  What we do not do (contrary to what other people in the horse industry seem to believe)

                                  We do not break their tailbones - it is actually a 1/4 inch incision on each side of the tail to cut the muscle that clamps the tail. This originated with livery stables in England (the livery was like the Hertz Rent a Car of today) and pretty much anyone of any experience could rent a hack. Tails were cut (or in some cases docked) to prevent a horse from clamping down on the harness rein and putting an inexperienced driver in danger. Saddlebreds and some morgans still have the tail muscles cut. It does not decrease mobility at all, it just prevents the horse from clamping the tail down if he does manage to swish it over the line (and so many saddleseat horses are started in harness and excercised in harness - it does serve a safety feature). The added bonus of the additional mobility of the tail is that the horses tails can be braced or trained into a beautiful arch.

                                  We do not use chemical blisters so the chains hurt them, we do not pressure shoe, we do not drive nails into their soles. This has been done to other breeds that do not trot because the lameness of the horse can be masked. Saddlebreds, Morgans, Arabs, Friesians, Appaloosas,Standardbreds,Hackneys, Andalusians and most of the other saddleseat breeds are judged primarily on the trot. Any lameness would be readily apparent and these methods are not practiced. They have been prevalent with the walking horses but the TWH industry is trying desperately to change their image and discourage these methods.

                                  We do not give them "rectal massages" like Jack Coggins says in his book "Horseman's Bible." The ginger salve is put in the opening of the rectum and it creates heat which makes the horse put his tail up. It does only last a few minutes and I have only had one horse that it bothered enough to kick at me. I do not do this to any of the horses at my barn, but had to when I worked for another trainer.

                                  That is pretty much the ugly.
                                  Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
                                  Bernard M. Baruch

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    I have been really enjoying this topic and I really have learned a lot. Here's another question. Is there a reason that pictures of saddlebred horses are taken at an angle?

                                    "I'm back in the saddle again" Gene Autry
                                    My new mantra - \"Life is too short not to eat ice cream.\"
                                    ReRiders Clique

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      I have always been told that pictures are taken at a slight angle in order to show off the motion of the front to the fullest extent. I have had some pictures taken that were not at an angle and they weren't quite as impressive. Also, IMO getting that slight uphill angle that brings most of the face into view instead of just a profile is very flattering. Of course, I might just be so accustomed to looking at them that way, that anything else doesn't look right

                                      Susan N.
                                      Susan N.

                                      Don't get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am, my attitude depends on who you are.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        I want to mention about the cutting of tails.
                                        In the field when we have retired show horses as broodmares...those with cut tails can get the flys MUCH better than those without.
                                        The tail has better mobility and can move around so much better.
                                        I had a horse who had such a low set tail that it made any sort of work very difficult for her. It tied up her back end making trotting painful for her. We cut her tail and she could trot!
                                        I have seen a few horses that would benefit from having their tails cut in many breeds.

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BluesSoloFlight:
                                          hmm. she hasn't called me about it or anything. Perhaps its a surprise visit? actually, I haven't check my phone since about 3, I'll go do that.

                                          What time are you guys going? I work tomorrow and i have lessons so i'll be at the barn *ALL* day (We're talking 7 am to 9 pm!)

                                          Do the stars conspire to pin us down like butterflies? - Jets to Brazil<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          Okay, so it was a different potential horse. She was also 18. by phi slama jama, sooo pretty....:-)

                                          ~Shayna and Picasso~
                                          ~Shayna~
                                          Saddleseat Equitation
                                          Looking Forward to what\'s to come in 2005

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