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All those on the fence on the slaughter issue

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  • #21
    MSUT people CONTINUE to post this stuff??!! All it leads to is an arguement that isn't going to be resolved.
    www.shawneeacres.net

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #22
      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shawnee_Acres:
      MSUT people CONTINUE to post this stuff??!! All it leads to is an arguement that isn't going to be resolved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

      <span class="ev_code_RED">Don't read it! Slaughter is clearly stated in the title. Lets not live in denial people, you can clearly hear a horse struggling in the kill box for minutes. These aren't scare tactics they are truths. The truth is scarey enough..........</span>
      NO HORSES TO SLAUGHTER CLIQUE
      http://www.cafepress.com/maneshirts

      Comment


      • #23
        WPF - horse farms do get agricultural status. Like any business, you must show a profit in accordance with IRS and state law - but horses ARE livestock. How an individual owner treats that horse is not relevant.

        I might have a farm of pet cows, or pet chickens. That doesn't change their legal status - merely how I view and the law views them. If you file a farm return - you're a farm. If you have a horse in the backyard - you're not a farm. That does not change the legal status of the horse.

        Horses are livestock. Livestock is not a dirty word. My horse fidgets in the trailer sometimes. oh wait - maybe horses don't like confinement - in stalls, trailers, cross ties or kill chutes. No proof of torture or fear. The kill chute is for safety and to ensure a quick kill. Sounds pretty humane. I wish my grandmother had a quick and painless death.....

        To SweatySaddlepad - I'm referring to the recent 10 page post on this - it seems that these subjects are posted on this BB not to educate - but to try and shock people.

        Heck - don't let truth get in the way - just show horrible things they are not subjected to in their daily life. It's a tactic that anti abortion people use, terrorists use, AR people use - it isn't new. I find it as offensive as I find video of terrorists beheading hostages.
        Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
        Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
        -Rudyard Kipling

        Comment


        • #24
          You don't have to view the video if you find that sort of thing offensive. Other people may find some value in seeing and hearing what happens in slaughterhouses instead of just reading about it. If it's authentic footage, how is that not truthful?

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #25
            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J Swan:
            WPF - horse farms do get agricultural status. Like any business, you must show a profit in accordance with IRS and state law - but horses ARE livestock. How an individual owner treats that horse is not relevant.

            I might have a farm of pet cows, or pet chickens. That doesn't change their legal status - merely how I view and the law views them. If you file a farm return - you're a farm. If you have a horse in the backyard - you're not a farm. That does not change the legal status of the horse.

            Horses are livestock. Livestock is not a dirty word. My horse fidgets in the trailer sometimes. oh wait - maybe horses don't like confinement - in stalls, trailers, cross ties or kill chutes. No proof of torture or fear. The kill chute is for safety and to ensure a quick kill. Sounds pretty humane. I wish my grandmother had a quick and painless death.....

            To SweatySaddlepad - I'm referring to the recent 10 page post on this - it seems that these subjects are posted on this BB not to educate - but to try and shock people.

            Heck - don't let truth get in the way - just show horrible things they are not subjected to in their daily life. It's a tactic that anti abortion people use, terrorists use, AR people use - it isn't new. I find it as offensive as I find video of terrorists beheading hostages. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

            J Swan if showing what really happens is shocking well then........I guess it is. As far as the kill chutes, yes they are suppose to be for safety and a quick humane death, if used properly. AVMA specifies "proper head restraint" but more often then not you have unskilled workers and no head restraint used, not to mention how they are aquired and transported. Scare tactics as you said are used but they are used on both sides. However the way you state it sounds like a falsity, to use scare tactics would make it false, I think the proof speaks for itself. The pro-slaughter folks have yet to show me any proof of increased abuse and neglect, rampant loose horses, infact when CA banned slaughter none of this happened as well as when Cavel was rebuilding in IL.
            NO HORSES TO SLAUGHTER CLIQUE
            http://www.cafepress.com/maneshirts

            Comment


            • #26
              From that video I could not determine if the horses were lame/crippled since they were all only standing around under the shelter/shade of the building. Hard to know how many have advanced ringbone, navicular, bowed tendons and such from the footage. Also hard to know how many are wreckless/dangerous to work with, ditto how many are in perfect shape and for some sad reason have ended up there.

              What I noticed was how quiet that group of horses were something I wouldn't expect if you mixed many new horses together. Since the video was shot in August it doesn't suprise me that the horses were plump as they have been on summer pastures. Later in the winter it wouldnt surprise me to see leaner horses who were not fed by their owners and quickly unloaded.

              anita m- you are using logic "I'm not convinced that humane slaughter isn't better than long, slow starvation and neglect" in a debate where emotional cliche's are the benchmark of who cares more. Don't you know logic is offensive to others when it's right?

              I recently dealt w/ a man, an idiot, who purchased some Arabians to begin preservation breeding with some "beautiful" mares. He's a complete rookie and was sold a bill of goods, bull $hit and brought home 3 barely handled bred mares. When the wildest one (the man hasn't been able to get a halter on her and she's 4 years old) went through the barb wire fence and required veterianary work she could not be attended to. The mare went through the fence again and needs help but he can't catch her in the 1 acre pen. He'd like to take her to a sale because he can't catch her. He asked me if it was legal to shoot her since she was in pain from her injuries. If your having to ask me a question like that your not ready to hear my answer. The mares problems began back at her breeders, some people who have lofty ideas, just enough money to breed but no background in horsemanship or marketing but they are "preservation breeders". Now the mares problems are that she is owned by a clueless novice who is running out of money. A humane euthanasia for this mare isn't looking like an option since she can't be tranq'ed with a dart gun as you have to be close enough to hit your target. If she sees people she runs, hence she's become tangled up in the fence twice. It's a sad state for her.

              Keep clamoring to make horses companion animals and we'll have a heap of new issues to deal with. Are they companion animals to those of us who adore them, structure our day and pocketbooks to fill their needs? Yes. As is, you pay more for equine veterinary services because we expect vets to "fix" horses just as we expect them to "fix" our broken cats and dogs and perhaps make a little money off a breeding or competition. Cattle services cost less because they are a "product" and if food animal work was billed at equine/companion animal rates no one could afford to eat meat. For example, preg check a cow cost $3. Preg check a horse $35, $45 for an ultrasound. I don't know what a preg check for a companion animal cost but I bet it's not less than $50.

              In closing, careful what you wish for folks. Change the stauts of horses and you may create larger and unforeseen problems for all of us who hown horses. Those of us who accept horse slaughter as a legal & regulated tax paying business are not your enemy.

              Comment


              • #27
                This material is not designed to educate or inform. It is designed and posted to elicit an emotional response. Emotional responses are not logical or objective. You are using manipulation and deceit to try and get your point across.

                I see right through you.

                You do not know the truth in this video. Neither do we. Submitting it as de facto evidence of atrocity only ensures that anyone who dares to question you is dismissed, ridiculed or considered some sort of monster.

                Which is probably the whole point. Try to silence anyone who dares to question.

                That's ok, I wasn't using my civil liberties anyway....
                Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                -Rudyard Kipling

                Comment


                • #28
                  J Swan, you do exactly what you are accusing Sweaty Saddlepads of doing.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    J Swan- based on your posts, people have hardly been trying to silence you. However, you have, several times asked the anti slaughter group to stop posting. If anti slaughter posts offend you, do what I do when I see a topic that I don't like/agree with...don't open it. If you want to debate the issue, then open it and post. Keep your expectations reasonable, though. If I went over to a hunting forum and started making accusations about how wrong it is, you don't think that there would be some heated debate? We'll have to agree that we are on different sides of the fence on this issue and look at animals differently. I could not imagine seeing a deer, for instance, and saying "What a beautiful, majestic animal. I love animals! I think I'll shoot it and eat it and show it respect that way". But you can, so as I said, we view animals differently.

                    SLW- Using the neglected horses in your example and the fact that many people say..."We need slaughter because I hate seeing the horses down the street starving," is not a valid argument for slaughter. We have slaughter now, and many instances of neglect and abuse. The people sending horses to slaughter are not the ones neglecting/abusing them. The owner of the horses in your example COULD do something. Off the top of my head, something along the lines of panels like those used to round up wild horses and feed placed in there daily until you get the horse to accept your presence. Then a Tranq gun.

                    The video that was placed on here does not have narration desribing what you are seeing. It was left up to the viewer to decide what they were seeing and their opinions on it. Hardly manipulated.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Oh but the video was "narrated".
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

                      Posted Dec. 09, 2005 08:10 PM
                      Brand new Dallas Crown footage just shot (terrible choice of words) . Watch the video, the sounds you hear in the background is the bolt and sounds of bodies falling . I don't know how anyone who could love horses would want this end for any and just imagine a loved horse of yours ending up here. We are coming up on a brand new year, lets make it count, a year for the horses!
                      </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      The people who question this are automatically placed on the defensive. I don't start threads about the inaccuracies and rhetoric of a particular issue - I respond to them.

                      When anti-hunting people have posted on the hunting forum - I have always been respectful and tried to provide a different viewpoint. If they didn't agree - that was ok. In the past, I even read a couple of posts thanking for the clarifying something for them - but they still disagreed with hunting.

                      The only time I acted with any vehemence was when posts are made with this type of doo doo. Emotional, knee jerk, impassioned and often inaccurate. I think these folks are deemed to be "trolls".

                      It's manipulative because the intent is to dangle a controversial subject and see who bites. Then the catfight begins.
                      Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                      Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                      -Rudyard Kipling

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        What, SusanP... J Swan is trying to "silence" you? Funny, seems to me like she's simply disagreeing with your tactics.

                        You know, this is a *discussion* board. But honestly, I don't get the idea that most of you anti-slaughter folks are at all interested in actually *discussing* things. All too often, it's "If you don't like it, don't read it!"

                        For the record, I agree completely with J Swan.

                        When I was in eighth grade, I took a debate class, and the subject of my debate was animal experimentation. It was darn easy to convince a class of eighth graders with pictures of fuzzy bunnies and sad stories. My poor debate partner actually used facts and logic, and lost miserably.

                        Personally, I'm not on the fence about horse slaughter. I'm opposed to the ban because I think it's illogical and short-sighted. I'm in favor of much more stringent (and enforced) standards of care for all animals on their way to slaughter plants and during the slaughter process itself.

                        And I've seen -- in person, not on video -- factory farming operations that offend me a lot more than this video does.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Erin, where did Susan P accuse J Swan of trying to silence her?

                          And this video was not shot as an immflamatory video. No doubt, that in person, many slaughter techniques are more offensive than this video. However, I doubt that any of the horse slaughter plants would allow someone place hidden video devices, over a couple of days to watch hoew the horses are handled in the chute getting the bolt gun and down the line. I have no doubt that if they allowed that, the same people saying that this video isn't "THAT" bad, would then be claiming that an actual Kill box video, is "just being immflamatory and working on emotions".

                          I don't know about the rest of you, but I know my horse (who is able to be body clipped, including ears and face while standing with a halter looped around his neck not tied to anything), would not stand still in a strange place with a strange person bringing an object up to his head. Vets that teach how to properly shoot a horse in the head to kill it are pretty specific about the spot that needs to be shot. I have a hard time believing that all of these horses quietly go into the kill box, and stand still while they put the stun gun to their head, ensuring they are stunned and insensible, then hoisted up by their feet, neck cut and bled out. If any of the pro slaughter side has videos of this process that were taken without the slaughterhouse employees being aware of it, that show these horses going through the slaughter process quietly and painlessly I would be interested in viewing them.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SLW:
                            A humane euthanasia for this mare isn't looking like an option since she can't be tranq'ed with a dart gun as you have to be close enough to hit your target. If she sees people she runs, hence she's become tangled up in the fence twice. It's a sad state for her. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            How about some oral tranq. in a bucket of feed set out for her? Seems like that should do the trick to at least get her in hand.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I always laugh when someone says things like " I don't know how anyone who loves horses can stand thinks like this blah, blah, blah. As usual they have no clue.

                              BTW how is this differant then how any other soecies is slaughtered? You eat meat then this is the world you help support.
                              Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                That's one of the reasons USDA inspectors are present at the abbatoir.

                                Clean kills are not always possible - but that is the goal. Even chemical euthanasia of horses can go wrong - I have seen that first hand. Hunters want a clean, quick kill. Sometimes that doesn't happen. Animal predators want a clean quick kill of their prey - for different reasons than humans of course. Youth, inexperience or old age can result in suffering of prey. I see that all the time.

                                This morning my neighbor asked permission to retrieve a buck he shot. I went and helped him with the gates and winch. Good clean kill. But it wasn't a bolt to the head. And I don't think my neighbor caused intentional suffering. And the buck died quickly and will feed my neighbor for a long time. Ironically - in the corn field across the street is the body of a doe that was struck by a car. She died slowly in the cold. I was not saddened by the buck; but by the doe's death.

                                None of this justifies the intentional infliction of pain or suffering by a human. Nor is this video evidence of that. Does abuse exist? Certainly it does.

                                Is slaughter inhumane based purely on some people's perception of the role horses play in our society? No. Would I send my horse to slaughter? No. Would I try and stop a neighbor from doing it? No.
                                Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                -Rudyard Kipling

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  County- Temple G. admits that the kill boxes for horses were not designed for "animals with longer, more flexible necks, such as horses", therefore reducing the accuracy of those weilding the "bolt gun".

                                  J Swan- Why wouldn't you consider sending your own horse to slaughter as a means to dispose of him (I mean, I know you aren't going to right now, but if you needed to get rid of him...say, you were getting out of horses, and he was lame. ) ?

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    And I agree with her 100% which I've said many times. Doesn't in any way shape or fornm change my post though.
                                    Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      I'm always amazed at how many people can't find anything on the internet. This video pertains to horses, therefore is valid on a general equine BB such as this. There are many people that would never be able to find this video otherwise, and the more people see it or at least know it exists the better.

                                      I always think there's something going on whenever someone complains about these type of videos being made, ie they benefit or have used this avenue in the past, or has a relative that does. It is shocking and horrible, and if you think it is ok to do this to animals, then I agree, you have no use for emotional responses.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        County- would you agree then, that the horse slaughter as it's practiced now, starting with auction, transport and the slaughter process/restraint methods/accuracy is less humane than how cattle are currently processed? And I know you want to keep slaughter legal and make changes to the process, so that is what I am asking now, is if the CURRENT process is less humane for horses than the entire process for cattle.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Thats what I'be been saying for years now.
                                          Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

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