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If the borders were closed to slaughter trucks today....

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  • #61
    I didn't know that she had designed a system. She seems to be able to see things in such a different perspective. It's amazing.

    JSwan: You explain it really well.

    Dr Grandin designed a system for horses a while ago. Since existing plants could not afford to retool - and I'm sure for a variety of other reasons - it was not implemented. Should a new plant be built, her system would likely be installed.
    The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
    H. Cate

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by jetsmom View Post
      I'd be all for a passport system/tatoos that mean "No slaughter", or something similar. Something that can be matched to the horse. Not just paperwork that can be easily forged.

      I'd even be ok with having to buy certain drugs from vets at a higher cost, if that is what it entailed.

      I'd be fine with local rendering/abbatoirs, that don't sell horsemeat for human consumption, but use the byproducts for hides, pet foods, etc.

      You do realize that we do have those?
      The trouble is that there is only so much of what they produce they can sell, it is a small market for by products, so they can't process many horses, not as many as around 100,000 a year more than what they are already using


      Once you introduce mass factory type production of a product we don't eat here, then all care about safety/handling go out the window, in lieu of obtaining the most profit.

      That tenent there doesn't make sense, a plant's size doesn't make it any more or less efficient or well managed, management does.
      I know some local two men butcher plants that I would close down if it was up to me.
      They are bad because they are bad, not because they are small.
      The large plant I know of, on the other hand, was generally well run, AR propaganda nothwitstanding.
      You can't help that any slaughter, even in your own backyard, is going to mean killing and have the "ick factor", just as any kind of such work is, even that of an operating room can be.



      I'm kinda curious who some of you are accusing of being AR people. As far as I know, AR people don't believe in owning pets, and most here own/ride horses and own pets.

      If you question an AR follower how they can demand others don't use their animals as they want, as long as it is in a legal way, but they have pets, they will look at you like you have two heads.

      AR people, logically, as they don't want animals used, should themselves not make any use of animals.
      Then, using logic doesn't seem to be their forte.

      AR people fight so others don't use animals, but if THEY have any use for them, they think that, their motives being so pure, they can take such good care, it is ok for them to have animals.

      They also, as the PETA group found taking in surrenders from the public for their shelter and telling people they were no kill, they were killing them right away in the back of their van and dumping them in some grocery store dumpster.

      Like I say, there is some kind of shortcircuit in many AR fanatics and followers thinking about who can do what with animals.
      I don't know how they think, doesn't make sense, maybe they go by the phases of the moon?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by JSwan View Post
        DB - I'm referring to the most extreme voices; some of the ones on this thread who represent an extreme viewpoint.

        Most people fall somewhere in the middle but it seems anyone who does not agree with the extremist viewpoint is labeled a horse hating whatever.

        It's not productive and I'm tired of hearing that crap. We all love horses or we would not work with them.

        One of the subjects discussed in the symposium these activists oppose so much is a registry/passport or do not slaughter type of system.

        Dr Grandin designed a system for horses a while ago. Since existing plants could not afford to retool - and I'm sure for a variety of other reasons - it was not implemented. Should a new plant be built, her system would likely be installed.

        But if that happens it would not solve other problems. Only one - concerns about the process itself. Still - it is an improvement.

        It does not solve the issue of transport - an issue which affects all species of livestock in the US - the closure of plants, the consolidation of agriculture, and the export of livestock for slaughter. Only building more plants - for all species - addresses that problem. And I opposed NAIS not because of traceback - I opposed NAIS because it would have cemented the large corporate model as the only method of farming in the US with a couple of megacorporations controlling the global food supply. Which is happening anyway....

        When auctions close, when plants close, when renderers close, when ordinances prohibit burial, when tracks close, when equine facilities close, when times get bad, when shelters can't take a horse, when a rescue is full, when horse owners are boxed in with fewer and fewer options - the slaughter option moves higher on the list.

        Merely shouting at owners to do the responsible thing doesn't help - and that is essentially what the hard core activists do. It's their right to do it of course- but I'm sick of reading their crap on this BB.

        We ALL love horses and no one wants any of them to suffer.
        Thanks for clarifying what you meant. I am most certainly not an AR activist. I raise chickens for meat, slaughter them myself, horses for sale and use by people, etc.. I do fall in the middle...one who hates the current system but might be convinced it's worth slaughtering horses with some major problems addressed. I'm neither anti or pro exactly.

        It is tiresome also though to see anyone labeled an anti referred to as an AR activist...bluey loves to label everyone who so much as questions the current system as being in league with AR folks. Like the pros on here, the antis and "in betweeners" also care about horses and as someone else pointed out, we usuallyown them. There do seem to be a couple who are far left on this discussion and they only pop up occasionally.

        Has Ms. Grandin put her ideas out for people to read? Last time I was on her site, she had nothing on there about horse slaughter processes.

        I have not followed that summit so I was not aware of what had been discussed. Clearly that is what I did not realize you were talking about with your comments.

        I'd also be fine with a "do not slaughter" chip or tatoo or something. Anytime a horse is given bute or some other lifetime banned drug, they should be required by law to be so marked. That would certainly make things interesting. It unfortunately would not address the lack of withholding periods for other drugs though so you'd still have that issue to deal with.

        Whatever you do it would have to be unalterable or someone would just try to cut it out (chip) or obliterate it somehow to make a few bucks selling horses for meat. That would be the only downside to not requiring a tracing system for all horses.

        Lots of good points made by both sides.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
          I didn't know that she had designed a system. She seems to be able to see things in such a different perspective. It's amazing.
          What she does is something many people could learn to do, if they wanted to. You need a strong understanding of the natural/normal behaviors and social structure for a species (which is something it seems many people don't 'get'). Then you need to set aside your emotions ("slaughter is icky. I don't like it."). Then move through the system, looking at it from whatever species' perspective.
          Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

          Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Bluey View Post
            If you question an AR follower how they can demand others don't use their animals as they want, as long as it is in a legal way, but they have pets, they will look at you like you have two heads.

            AR people, logically, as they don't want animals used, should themselves not make any use of animals.
            Then, using logic doesn't seem to be their forte.

            AR people fight so others don't use animals, but if THEY have any use for them, they think that, their motives being so pure, they can take such good care, it is ok for them to have animals.

            They also, as the PETA group found taking in surrenders from the public for their shelter and telling people they were no kill, they were killing them right away in the back of their van and dumping them in some grocery store dumpster.

            Like I say, there is some kind of shortcircuit in many AR fanatics and followers thinking about who can do what with animals.
            I don't know how they think, doesn't make sense, maybe they go by the phases of the moon?
            By your reasoning, people who are against dog fighting/cock fighting/horse tripping are also AR people. All of those are founded in a "culture". All of them bring in money, and generally don't end in the death of both participants. All could be considered the owner's property, to do as they want, because it doesn't hurt anyone else. So are you ok with those activities?

            AR people want to end ownership of animals. I haven't seen anyone here that would be considered AR. Animal WELFARE, yes.

            Comment


            • #66
              Still looking for what Temple Grandin had to say....

              http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireS...2549878&page=1
              The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
              H. Cate

              Comment


              • #67
                You'd be right that anyone with an interest could do that. Being autistic gives her a whole different focus.

                Originally posted by cowgirljenn View Post
                What she does is something many people could learn to do, if they wanted to. You need a strong understanding of the natural/normal behaviors and social structure for a species (which is something it seems many people don't 'get'). Then you need to set aside your emotions ("slaughter is icky. I don't like it."). Then move through the system, looking at it from whatever species' perspective.
                The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
                H. Cate

                Comment


                • #68
                  This is brilliant

                  Originally posted by JSwan View Post
                  Why bother. Horse slaughter is a clumsy national solution to what is essentially a local problem.

                  Any attempt to solve the problem is met with howling disapproval from activists. They complain about medication - but when a passport system is proposed they oppose it.

                  They complain about the method of slaughter - but when someone proposes to use Dr Grandin's system they oppose it.

                  They complain about transport times, but when someone proposes a local plant, which would shorten times for many species, not just horses, they oppose it.

                  They complain about inhumane treatment over our borders - but when it is pointed out that they are largely culpable for sending even more horses over the borders - they refuse to accept responsibility for the unintended consequences of their activism.

                  We all love horses and want was is best for them. That is what activists refuse to even consider - that ALL of us are deeply committed to animal welfare, even though many of us don't share the activists views.

                  There cannot be a single solution to a local problem. Our shelter and rescue system is already clogged with unwanted pets and livestock - even before the economic crisis. We are never going to convince the American population that every single unwanted animal must be kept in sanctuary its entire life. Solutions, if they are to be had, must be practical, workable, and multifacted - and must ensure the continued viability of the horse industry.

                  So far - activists have not helped the situation at all - so again - why bother with them.


                  Bolded by me- JSwan- this sums up the ENTIRE situation in a nutshell. and my, if only those from both sides of the argument would see it and approach it from that aspect, we could make a significant difference in the lives and the end of life for horses. For the good. We would actually have a major positive impact on horses lives. If only.

                  And, for the record, I am anti slaughter in a big way. As it is now.

                  And to my knowledge, I have never donned a lettuce leaf for peta, but I don't eat meat!
                  My big man - April 27, 1986 - September 04, 2008-
                  You're with me every moment, my big red horse.

                  Be kinder than necessary, for everyone is fighting a battle of some kind.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I am with JSwan on this all the way. In this order, I think we should get the slaughter houses up and running, close our own borders, and process the meat for the market that exists right here in this country. There are a lot of hungry people here, many of whom don't get nearly enough protein in their diets to begin with. Instead of thinking about exporting the meat as a high priced commodity, why not use it right here to feed some of the people who really don't care whether they are eating cow, pig, buffalo, chicken, fish or horse? Heck, at this rate they're lucky to get peanut butter!

                    This is a huge, untapped market that folks are too afraid to even discuss, let alone open up, because then there would be a real justification for opening up the slaughterhouses, processing horses simply to take care of some of our own people. Heck, in colonial times they used to feed the poor and the slaves lobster, viewing it as a trash food. Why not process these horses right here within our borders and feed it to our own people--rich ones if they want it, poor ones if they need it. Protein problem solved. JMO.

                    ETA: One of my few pet peeves is seeing posts from people who have no problem with bringing the horse to the zoo to be shot and fed to the lions, but god forbid that someone should shoot it and stick a fork in it. These people in our own borders are starving. They may not be round, cute and furry, but they live within our own borders and need help. Priorities are definitely askew.
                    Last edited by Chief2; Jan. 6, 2011, 05:54 PM.
                    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

                    http://s1098.photobucket.com/albums/...2011%20Photos/

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #70
                      Chief, have you not been reading about the amount of drugs inthe horse meat that is currently being slaughtered for human consumption?

                      Those of us who keep mentioning this aren't kidding.

                      If someone begins raising horses for food animals, under those guidelines then I'm all for it. Currently? No way.

                      NJR
                      Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Chief2 View Post
                        ETA: One of my few pet peeves is seeing posts from people who have no problem with bringing the horse to the zoo to be shot and fed to the lions, but god forbid that someone should shoot it and stick a fork in it. These people in our own borders are starving. They may not be round, cute and furry, but they live within our own borders and need help. Priorities are definitely askew.
                        I think the main issue I have with feeding horsemeat to people versus big cats/other animals is that it's not safe for human consumption. Again we go right back to the drug residue issues and that horses are not raised as food animals in the US. Some drugs like bute will prohibit the use of that horse for human consumption...and that is US law. Funny too, but horsemeat is not even fed to dogs in the US anymore as it's not believed safe by the producers of dog food.

                        It's been discussed already in this thread and others a number of times and unless you are including in your proposal that a tracking system be implemented...like a passport...for each and every American horse, I fail to see how you can ensure the meat is safe.

                        I think the idea of marketing residue laden or unsafe horse meat to the poor and starving people of America is an appalling idea. Of course, that is exactly what we've been sending the Europeans for decades now so why bother not feeding it to Americans now also.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Well, then I stand corrected. I'm still in favor of slaughter over leaving them in yards and fields to starve and die a slow, agonizing death. Open up the slaughter houses and start processing. I'm am not anywhere near being on the AR's bandwagon.
                          "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

                          http://s1098.photobucket.com/albums/...2011%20Photos/

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Chief2 View Post
                            Well, then I stand corrected. I'm still in favor of slaughter over leaving them in yards and fields to starve and die a slow, agonizing death. Open up the slaughter houses and start processing. I'm am not anywhere near being on the AR's bandwagon.
                            Sending your horse to a slaughter plant is a choice. If you talk to people who have their animals in their yards neglected, doing without, etc... many are doing 'their best' and would never think of sending their animal to a plant. You can build it, but don't expect that they will necessarily come [there instead of starving in a field, etc].
                            Heck slaughter is presently still chugging along at quite a clip while there are masses of horses in need.

                            I also wanted to note that many zoos also restrict what their animals [which are incredibly expensive animals and whos care I understand is regulated and supervised] can consume and many contaminated horses who should not be going through an EU plant would not be accepted at the zoos either.
                            Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                            http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

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                            • #74
                              I want to know why you think it would be a cheap way to go - that the poor and hungry would have it availble to them.
                              If it were processed correctly it would seem that it would be just as expensive as anything else. Not to mention the drug issues - aside from the Mustangs that is.
                              Not trying to be snarky -just a legitimate question.

                              Originally posted by Chief2 View Post
                              I am with JSwan on this all the way. In this order, I think we should get the slaughter houses up and running, close our own borders, and process the meat for the market that exists right here in this country. There are a lot of hungry people here, many of whom don't get nearly enough protein in their diets to begin with. Instead of thinking about exporting the meat as a high priced commodity, why not use it right here to feed some of the people who really don't care whether they are eating cow, pig, buffalo, chicken, fish or horse? Heck, at this rate they're lucky to get peanut butter!

                              This is a huge, untapped market that folks are too afraid to even discuss, let alone open up, because then there would be a real justification for opening up the slaughterhouses, processing horses simply to take care of some of our own people. Heck, in colonial times they used to feed the poor and the slaves lobster, viewing it as a trash food. Why not process these horses right here within our borders and feed it to our own people--rich ones if they want it, poor ones if they need it. Protein problem solved. JMO.

                              ETA: One of my few pet peeves is seeing posts from people who have no problem with bringing the horse to the zoo to be shot and fed to the lions, but god forbid that someone should shoot it and stick a fork in it. These people in our own borders are starving. They may not be round, cute and furry, but they live within our own borders and need help. Priorities are definitely askew.
                              The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
                              H. Cate

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #75
                                I'm still in favor of slaughter over leaving them in yards and fields to starve and die a slow, agonizing death. Open up the slaughter houses and start processing. I'm am not anywhere near being on the AR's bandwagon.
                                Chief, no one is going to open a slaughter house for horses ANYWHERE because, unless they can sell it for human consumption, there is NO MONEY in it.

                                Horse slaughter itself is STILL legal in the US, but very few places will do it because there is no money in it.

                                Even if you take a horse to an abbatoir, what do they do with the carcass? Besides the fact that if this is a USDA/CFIA inspected operation ALL of the eqipment would have to be cleaned and sanitized to code before any other species could be run through.

                                No money = no horse slaughter in the US = longer rides and in Mexico much crueler deaths for the same number of horses.

                                I hope the AR people who pushed that Bill through didn't break their arms patting themselves on the back over THAT "victory".

                                NJR
                                Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by Nojacketrequired View Post
                                  Chief, no one is going to open a slaughter house for horses ANYWHERE because, unless they can sell it for human consumption, there is NO MONEY in it.

                                  Horse slaughter itself is STILL legal in the US, but very few places will do it because there is no money in it.

                                  Even if you take a horse to an abbatoir, what do they do with the carcass? Besides the fact that if this is a USDA/CFIA inspected operation ALL of the eqipment would have to be cleaned and sanitized to code before any other species could be run through.

                                  No money = no horse slaughter in the US = longer rides and in Mexico much crueler deaths for the same number of horses.

                                  I hope the AR people who pushed that Bill through didn't break their arms patting themselves on the back over THAT "victory".

                                  NJR

                                  I think there is ot even a market for horse meat in pet food anymore.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by Chief2 View Post
                                    Well, then I stand corrected. I'm still in favor of slaughter over leaving them in yards and fields to starve and die a slow, agonizing death. Open up the slaughter houses and start processing. I'm am not anywhere near being on the AR's bandwagon.
                                    There was a HUGE neglect case right near Dallas Crown SH when they were still open. Starving/neglected horses and slaughter do not have any direct correlation. The people that starve/neglect horses are not those sending them to slaughter.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by Nojacketrequired View Post
                                      Chief, have you not been reading about the amount of drugs inthe horse meat that is currently being slaughtered for human consumption?

                                      Those of us who keep mentioning this aren't kidding.

                                      If someone begins raising horses for food animals, under those guidelines then I'm all for it. Currently? No way.

                                      NJR
                                      LOL I was just thinking as I read that, are we trying to poison all the poor and/or homeless hungry people in this country? Horse meat is not legally safe for human consumption (meaning they are full of illegal for food animal drugs that don't go away over time). I don't really care if someone eats a dead horse. It is how they get dead that is important and so far nobody has shown the least bit of concern over improving that situation.
                                      Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                                      Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by Alagirl View Post
                                        I think there is ot even a market for horse meat in pet food anymore.
                                        Nope. First it isn't safe and second the public doesn't like feeding Trigger to Fido anymore. Pretty much only zoo animals eat horsemeat (and certain um, people cultures) and even they have to be supplemented with fat because horsemeat is too lean for a healthy big cat diet.
                                        Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                                        Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by summerhorse View Post
                                          LOL I was just thinking as I read that, are we trying to poison all the poor and/or homeless hungry people in this country? Horse meat is not legally safe for human consumption (meaning they are full of illegal for food animal drugs that don't go away over time). I don't really care if someone eats a dead horse.
                                          Ok, that is now bollocks.

                                          While people don't like to feed Flicka to Fido, and yes, some people medicate their horses....That does not automatically equal 'legally unsafe'
                                          If it were to satisfy a market for human consumption tests etc would have to be performed, same as actually for pet foods. But I am assuming (with all consequences) that the majority of horses headed for the meat man at this time are not much medicated or sublemented...

                                          It is how they get dead that is important and so far nobody has shown the least bit of concern over improving that situation.
                                          Oh, to the contrary. There have been many suggestions, but most that do not include lethal injection have been shouted down.

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