If the borders were closed to slaughter trucks today....

[cowgirljenn]

One thing I think would happen almost immediately would be more abandoned horses, especially out where there are large areas that they wouldn't be particularly noticed at least for awhile.

I think this would happen, too. We had abandoned/estray horses here in Texas before the slaughter houses moved out of the country, but we do have more now.

When having this discussion, I do think we need to remember that it won't be 100,000/year needing to be dealt with. I think some of those 100,000 would be euthanized by their owners once they didn't have the slaughter option. Some would be picked up by people for free or cheaply (of course, some of those people wouldn't be able to care for what they picked up). BUT the likelihood is that there would still be a LOT of horses needing placement... and how do we deal with that?

[danceronice]

Apparently the EU. I find it hard to believe both Canadian and EU authorities genuinely think the horses' systems are clear. The consumers might be oblivious, by and large, but I suspect not all of them, either.

I'd be fine with knackers who put the horse down and render for parts and byproducts. I'd buy horsehide leather the same as lambskin or cowhide. Feed zoo animals most of it--it's not going to hurt them (though barbituates would). The point is less slaughtering for human consumption than having a means of killing and disposing that doesn't involve wasting all the product, risking contamination from the euthanasia drugs, and paying through the nose to cremate or have hauled off.

[EquineImagined]

In Canada and Mexico, I suppose Seeing as how none of the horses slaughter bound are strictly void of the presence of any of these drugs and as far as I know the buyers sending them north or south don't bother testing.

I did say only that there "could" be a good market, we just have to get over some funny ideas first and a lot of consideration will have to go into how to manage the system.

Even if we only slaughter for distribution to 'ethnic' food stores within the U.S catering to imigrants from cultures who do view horses as a fine source of meat.

Didn't say it was perfect, or would be easy to set up at first, this is one of those there is no perfect easy answer situations.

[cowgirljenn]

If we had more rendering facilities across the country, and made it at least more convenient and affordable to dispose of a carcass, might that help?

I so wish we had more rendering companies in the US. The big problem is - no one wants the rendering plants near THEM. And I admit, I'm no exception to that. I would be quite upset if someone bought the land next to me and put in a rendering plant. So how do we solve that problem?

slaughterhouses exclusively for horses, designed by someone like Ms Grandin, at maybe 10 locations across the US?

I think if we're going to have slaughter, it needs to be this way. MORE slaughterhouses in the US so the horses ship shorter distances. Designed by equine behavior experts and/or people like Dr. Grandin so that they use the horse's own natural behaviors (that's what Temple Grandin does - she moves through facilities with the animal's natural instincts in mind and builds facilities that use those tendencies). AND the slaughterhouses would need to operate so that anyone could bring their own horse into be euthanized. If you could haul your horse, in your own trailer, to a slaughterhouse, lead him in calmly, etc., it wouldn't be any different than hauling him to a vet and leading him into the area where he's going to be euthanized.

I think you also need to add to the list - good training for those working at slaughterhouses. I admitedly don't know what kind of training they go through now, but that's not a glamorous job that's pulling in people who WANT to be there. And it never will be a glamorous job, but if it came with training, better pay perhaps, etc., then maybe better workers could be hired who could do a good job. Could someone more familiar with slaughterhouses (for any species) comment on that? I can't imagine anyone is just thrilled to get a job where they kill anything, regardless of the species. So I can't imagine those jobs in any species attract skilled workers, but I could be wrong.

More low cost euthanasia

The issue here is going to be funding and disposal of bodies. (I'm not saying that's something we can't overcome, but we have to keep it in mind).

More solutions for re homing

This is a tough one. What do you mean here? There are only so many homes, and we really can't create that many more. And we can't tell rescues they have to take in more. Plenty of rescues (Bluebonnet is one of them) were founded to deal with neglect/abuse cases, not to take in horses who are unwanted by their owners. On the front page of our website, we say we don't take in owner-donated horses, only neglect cases, and we STILL get people emailing us and wanting to dump their old, injured or ill horses on us (often so they can go get new ones). That's not why we exist.

I don't know about the breeding controls - although I am REALLY anti backyard breeder, regulating that is a major Pandora's box.

I think it would be hard to regulate, but I think instead we educate. Teach people what to think about when breeding, what goes into breeding successfully, etc. True, it won't stop the over-abundance of horses, but if SOME people make the right decision to not breed poor-quality horses or to cut back, then you've done good work.

[cowgirljenn]

ETA: If Europe closes their market, they close their market. No, no one could blame the AR people for that, but they can certainly be blamed for horses getting shipped over the border to Canada now.

I'm not so sure we couldn't blame the AR people. They've been screaming that one reason we shouldn't have slaughter is because of the medications and such that go into our horses. I keep asking if they don't fear that could backfire - instead of not slaughtering US horses anymore, perhaps we'll have tougher restrictions about what we can and cannot do with our horses (or something like NAIS implemented). The AR people would LIKE to see the slaughterhouses shut down because Europe won't buy our medication-tainted horse meat....

[danceronice]

True...what do we do if they decide that instead of banning shipping to slaughter, they start eliminating drug categories for horses? No more bute? I mean, racing could probably adjust (it used to be illegal there anyway.) No more ivermectin? (That would be the only thing I'd be concerned with slaughtering for dog food again--I'd feed my dogs horse meat, but I'd have some concern about testing for ivermectin as it has to be used VERY carefully in dogs.)

[JSwan]

Jenn -

The smaller/medium sized facilities tend to be family owned small businesses with roots in the community. Employees tend to be family members, and locals who are usually long-term employees.

The species taken in and the services offered depend on the size of facility, local demand, and some activities are regulated under state law only, and others are regulated under state and federal law. (poultry comes to mind)

The plant usually does not sell products to the public. The plant is a custom processing facility; and the producer (animal owner) applies their own label to the product to be sold wholesale or resale.

Labeling requirements are overseen by FSIS/USDA. Those requirements apply to any product intended to be sold to the public.

These plants are on the local renderers pick up route.

Most of the same regulations that apply to very large plants also apply to the small/medium plants - most importantly USDA inspection and labeling.

Some plants also process legally harvested game, and may participate in Hunters for the Hungry programs.

In order for a facility to accept a horse for euthanasia - not for processing into a product, the entire regulatory framework for plant operations would have to be reformed. Then, any new regulations would have to allow plants to decline to take in equines, as it would require capital improvements to handle equines, and many facilities could not afford it. Many operate on slim margins as it is.

If all that was to come to pass, and a plant did take in unwanted equines to kill and dispose of remains, it would likely cost the owner a great deal of money. The carcass cannot remain whole, as there is no place to store a dead animal, and food safety regulations are quite strict. (there are freezers for meat, and hanging rooms for beef. You cannot store a dead horse in those places - you'd have to have big freezers for whole equines, or you'd have to immediately process them. )

So, some processing of the horse would be required - and that means hours of labor. When the carcass is processed into small pieces, it can fit into the containers used to hold offal for the renderer - then the drums must be stored - again - according to USDA regulation. I sincerely doubt any chemical euthanasia drugs would be permitted.

Processing of a standard steer, in my area, costs several hundred dollars. If I were to take a stab at a cost for horses, taking into account all the costs associated with the kill floor, processing, storage, and renderer, I'd tack on a few hundred more at least.

And even then, a plant would likely only process horses a day or two a month - because their business is custom slaughter for local farmers.

I'm not saying it couldn't be done - I'm saying it's huge, expensive and protracted endeavor.

These plants are becoming a thing of the past - because providing food in this manner is more expensive than what you buy in the grocery store. It's why there are fewer renderers as well. Massive consolidation of agriculture keeps costs low - and the consumer wants cheap food.

Even those who want to buy from local farmers and pay more - that clientele rushed back to Wal-Mart when the economy crashed.

Efforts to open new plants are always met with opposition. I've got a plant a few miles away from me - and it hasn't hurt my property values one bit. Still, it's impossible to argue with the NIMBY's, especially if they are city dwellers who have moved out to the country.

Massive consolidation of agriculture directly affects the horse industry too.

[Bluey]

Rendering products is a very small market with very small profits, can't hardly use many cattle, much less many horses.
There is one cattle rendering plant here and they don't even get all the dead cattle around here, don't have any place to sell any more products than just so many.

Another plant tried to open a few years ago and it lasted two years, the same problem, not much market for what they had produced.

I don't see how they, already short of customers, could think to render any more horses, much less by the thousands.
No market for that, no plants can be in business if they don't have anyone to sell to.

I would say, don't count on anyone wanting any more carcasses to render, other than for the asian and european human consumption markets and those, the animal rights people are trying to close them down.

Keep looking for solutions.
It is easy to disrupt and destroy the existing systems, not so easy to provide for unintended consequences, is it.

[cowgirljenn]

Another plant tried to open a few years ago and it lasted two years, the same problem, not much market for what they had produced.

Sad that they cannot keep in business. I'm going to guess that there's probably not as much market because of the backlash companies took for using animal byproducts. Are there other reasons?

I am not so familiar with the consumer/product side of rendering or slaughter. And I do want to learn.

[JSwan]

Jenn - the problem that small plants are facing is that, like the farmer, they can't offer their products at Wal-Mart prices.

The consumer wants cheap food. Small family owned plants and small family farms just can't compete, especially when times are bad.

Anti-slaughter activists keep insisting there is no oversight or not enough oversight of slaughter. The truth is that there are reams and reams of regulations and procedures even a small plant has to follow. I'm not saying those regulations shouldn't be there - I'm saying that regulations exist. And ever year there are more of them, and they are largely unfunded mandates.

That means huge capital outlays are often required.

The small/medium plants are small businesses - the one near me does about 1 million gross annually. When you consider the enormous amount of taxes paid, the energy requirements for the plant, the environmental regulations that cost money to conform to - there is barely any profit in the business. When times are good and the consumer feels eco-friendly, they'll buy. But as soon as prices rise they run back to Wal-Mart.

That's the sad truth - and it affects all species of livestock, including horses. It means more plant closures and longer distances for all.

[cowgirljenn]

Jenn - the problem that small plants are facing is that, like the farmer, they can't offer their products at Wal-Mart prices.

Makes sense - and I get that. I'm on the BOD for a group designed to help small and family farms, and we see this all the time. It is hard to be competitive (if not impossible).

Is that the same problem for rendering plants? They just can't be competitive? Or is the problem that there's not a demand for the products anymore? If there's a demand for the product but not at the price they can produce it, where is the product coming from?

[wildlifer]

Just a note, the number of horses slaughtered is about the same as it was before US human-consumption plants were closed. The net number of horses slaughtered (100,000 per year) has not really changed, just the nationality of the people putting them on the hooks.

[summerhorse]

The past has shown that there would be hardly a ripple. People would sell their horses to someone else, give them away, put them down, keep them. The same as the rest of us with horses. The KBs would stop buying iffy horses and would simply flip the ones they already had faster. They don't sell to kill because it is the only way, they sell because they can make more money without putting much if any money OUT.

Unless you toss your horse on the banks of a river the odds of contaminating water are slim. Big animals die every day all over the world and they decompose and don't contaminate much of anything. Horses can be composted in manure piles, they can be left to rot if you have access to enough land, they can be hauled to a landfill, to a renderer, sometimes to a zoo (if they weren't euthanized with a shot), or just buried where they fall.

As far as it being expensive to do any of the above well DUH! Horses are expensive and final costs which are usually about 1-2 months of board one would have had to pay had the horse NOT kicked the bucket are simply another cost of horse keeping. People who wouldn't bat an eye at a $1,000 vet bill suddenly are broke when it comes time to dispose of Dobbin.

In many cities or counties they will come out with their equipment and either bury and haul them away for you. Often this is FREE. You don't know until you ask.

[summerhorse]

I doubt restrictions would or could be put into place regarding levels of drugs in the 99%+ horses that don't go to slaughter for the less than 1% of horses that go to slaughter in another country. NOT going to happen.

[HealingHeart]

One solution that keeps being mentioned is to address the over breeding, address the run-down of young stock being started way to early for racing, reining, cutting etc., and move the discipline age out and start these 1.5 -2 year olds later when they are more developed for the work (LONG TERM). Lesson Barns need to own responsiblity for their stock, not ship them off to auction when they are old, run down etc., they need to setup a retirement account to support their aged "workers".

America is a large country, we certainly have more unused land in and around that could be set aside to help with this population. Perhaps the disciplines could pay into a "sanctuary" insurance setup for their older mounts as they move on or out of horses. Short Term, reduce breeding for long term adjustments. Treat and use our horses better, be smarter in our disciplines, re-think how we do things. Slow down, rather than speed up....

Perhaps, promote AGED classes at shows.... in hand, performance etc....

[JGHIRETIRE]

That's totally because of the economy. Small farms/small groceries/small anything has a much much harder time competing now.
When it comes to a choice between your house and your horse what do you do?


[QUOTE=JSwan;5331847]Jenn - the problem that small plants are facing is that, like the farmer, they can't offer their products at Wal-Mart prices.

The consumer wants cheap food. Small family owned plants and small family farms just can't compete, especially when times are bad.

[JGHIRETIRE]

The problem is if you do that and get caught whopping fines.


Unless you toss your horse on the banks of a river the odds of contaminating water are slim. Big animals die every day all over the world and they decompose and don't contaminate much of anything. Horses can be composted in manure piles, they can be left to rot if you have access to enough land, they can be hauled to a landfill, to a renderer, sometimes to a zoo (if they weren't euthanized with a shot), or just buried where they fall.

As far as it being expensive to do any of the above well DUH! Horses are expensive and final costs which are usually about 1-2 months of board one would have had to pay had the horse NOT kicked the bucket are simply another cost of horse keeping. People who wouldn't bat an eye at a $1,000 vet bill suddenly are broke when it comes time to dispose of Dobbin.

Isn't that the truth!!

[Bluey]

One solution that keeps being mentioned is to address the over breeding, address the run-down of young stock being started way to early for racing, reining, cutting etc., and move the discipline age out and start these 1.5 -2 year olds later when they are more developed for the work (LONG TERM). Lesson Barns need to own responsiblity for their stock, not ship them off to auction when they are old, run down etc., they need to setup a retirement account to support their aged "workers".

America is a large country, we certainly have more unused land in and around that could be set aside to help with this population. Perhaps the disciplines could pay into a "sanctuary" insurance setup for their older mounts as they move on or out of horses. Short Term, reduce breeding for long term adjustments. Treat and use our horses better, be smarter in our disciplines, re-think how we do things. Slow down, rather than speed up....

Perhaps, promote AGED classes at shows.... in hand, performance etc....

Good ideas, but based on some false premises, that means the real world doesn't work quite like you think.

-Starting horses at two or later.
Studies have shown that, for most disciplines, starting colts early tends to produce sounder, better performers that last longer.
The ones started later tend to not be as good performers and have more injuries, their bodies are not conditioned and trained from young as well for their task as those started young.
No matter when you start them, you have to use the proper management, that is also important.
A bad trainer can run into the ground or work a sore horse started at any age and that is what causes most problems, bad management and training, not when colts are started.

-Mandate pensions for horses?
That is laudable, but we have many humans without them, that will object to that, I think.

-Although people like to think that there is land out there no one uses, I doubt that you can find unused land no one is using. Really, if you want to use some land anywhere, you need to buy or lease it, there is no "free" land out there.

-There are already many that keep their older horses around, best they can manage, always has, that is not new.

-Do you show or participate in any discipline?
I wonder, because there have been classes for older horses forever and some of the better older horses have higher prices than most, they are so valued, especially in many disciplines the winners earn money, like roping or cutting in western events, school masters in Dressage and push button older hunters.
If a horse is talented and has the proper training, he gets better with age in most disciplines.
They are hard to find, they are in such great demand.

I would say that the horse industry is a mature industry that has been around so long as to know how to run things and why they are as they are.
Still, the industry is changing all the time, it is the nature of things to change.
We need to be sure they are appropiate changes, not be pushed into them by some from outside that really don't know what is there, why and what is best.

Don't forget a very important part of all what is going on with horses and all animals we use, that we have some of the richest non-profit groups working at eliminating any use of animals and they are dividing and conquering, one battle at the time.
We ought to keep the big picture in mind, not let those with animal rights agendas get the upper hand, not if we want to keep using our horses for much longer.

[Calamber]

The past has shown that there would be hardly a ripple. People would sell their horses to someone else, give them away, put them down, keep them. The same as the rest of us with horses. The KBs would stop buying iffy horses and would simply flip the ones they already had faster. They don't sell to kill because it is the only way, they sell because they can make more money without putting much if any money OUT.

Unless you toss your horse on the banks of a river the odds of contaminating water are slim. Big animals die every day all over the world and they decompose and don't contaminate much of anything. Horses can be composted in manure piles, they can be left to rot if you have access to enough land, they can be hauled to a landfill, to a renderer, sometimes to a zoo (if they weren't euthanized with a shot), or just buried where they fall.

As far as it being expensive to do any of the above well DUH! Horses are expensive and final costs which are usually about 1-2 months of board one would have had to pay had the horse NOT kicked the bucket are simply another cost of horse keeping. People who wouldn't bat an eye at a $1,000 vet bill suddenly are broke when it comes time to dispose of Dobbin.

In many cities or counties they will come out with their equipment and either bury and haul them away for you. Often this is FREE. You don't know until you ask.

The risk of contaminating water with the burial of bodies is well known, hence local laws preventing such. Perhaps you might want to study some hydrology, types of soils and water flows to best understand but these laws were not made to increase the prices for disposing of horses or other large animals, they were made to protect human health and the greater ecosystem. Check out water borne diseases in other countries around the world and that might refute your thesis a bit.

[HealingHeart]

Change, can get started with an open mind and a few ideas being discussed and expanded.

btw, starting horses early, why do we see so many horses @ 8 with hock problems, i.e, injections. I also have gone to Cutting Events and so many of these young horses were already showing signs of hock issues.

And yes, I have shown (20 yrs), but not recently. Western had aged classes, but haven't seen it in H/J or dressage, or perhaps it is there.

Racing could also start later.... just to start racing as a 2 yrs old, these guys have to be broke before that and since all TBs turn a new age on Jan 1, but maybe born later in year, they could be really young. So many horses break down to early and require early retirement or something less than their person wants, thus causing either stop showing and trail, a resell or trade.

Useful Life of a horse has changed and not for the better.

Good ideas, but based on some false premises, that means the real world doesn't work quite like you think.

-Starting horses at two or later.
Studies have shown that, for most disciplines, starting colts early tends to produce sounder, better performers that last longer.
The ones started later tend to not be as good performers and have more injuries, their bodies are not conditioned and trained from young as well for their task as those started young.
No matter when you start them, you have to use the proper management, that is also important.
A bad trainer can run into the ground or work a sore horse started at any age and that is what causes most problems, bad management and training, not when colts are started.