When YOUR Horse Becomes *That* Boarder - (Not Good) Update Pg. 2

[Montanas_Girl]

I am completely stumped. I think my horse has been invaded by body snatchers.

I have owned Montana for nearly 11 years. In that time, he has lived at 7 barns in all kinds of living situations - solo turnout, giant mixed herd turnout, small group of buddies, etc. - you name, he has been there. He's been shown all over the southeast in addition. He has never had *any* issue whatsoever in being moved anywhere or settling in to a new barn. Generally, as soon as he finds the food, he's a happy boy. He has also ALWAYS been at or near the bottom of the pecking order in any herd he has lived with.

I moved him on Monday to a new barn - small, semi-private kind of place with very laid back people and horses. We unloaded him, turned him out, and watched to make sure he was going to settle in okay. The other horses (2 mares and a 30-something year old gelding) trotted over, Montana trotted away to the hay, and that was it.

Or so we thought. I was out of town on Tuesday. Yesterday morning I got a text from the new barn owner: "Please call me as soon as possible." Uh oh.

It turns out that my supposedly mild-mannered teenaged gelding had morphed into a holy terror overnight. He was running the other horses almost non-stop (has since settled down into a slower speed but pretty consistent herding), has aggressively kicked and bitten the other horses, wouldn't allow the other horses to be caught but also didn't want to be caught himself, etc. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

I went out to check the situation out yesterday afternoon. When I got there, the horses were all quietly sharing the round bale. I walked out, caught Montana, and took him to the barn. He was pretty fussy in the barn - calling for the other horses, dancing in the crossties, etc. - which is not normal for him but not unheard of given that he'd only been there a couple of days. I longed him for a while, and that seemed to take enough of the nervous energy out that he was able to stand quietly in the crossties while I finished grooming him and put his blanket on. When I took him back out to the field and turned him out, he started with the nastyness that the barn owner had described. He didn't make any contact with the other horses, but he was extremely aggressive and wouldn't let them approach us or vice versa.

His behavior makes it dangerous to catch, feed, or blanket him or the other horses in the field. The barn owner has young children, and their pony is one of the horses in this field, so this behavior cannot continue. This is a small place, so there are only two main pastures - a small one for the stall boarders and the larger field where Montana is living. There is one other small paddock. If Montana does not settle down and start behaving in the next week or two, then he will be moved into the small paddock by himself until I can find another barn.

I am so embarrased. I had told this poor woman how easy and quiet he is to handle, and now he turns into a fire-breathing dragon in the first week! I know she must think that I lied to her. I really like the people and situation at this barn, and I hope that Montana will be able to get a grip on himself soon. Otherwise I am about to be kicked out of a barn for the first time in my life, and I don't blame her one bit!

Suggestions? Sympathy? I'll take anything I can get!

[BoomerButt]

Was there any type of introduction period for the horses? Or, were they just thrown out together?

[LuvMyTB]

No suggestions, just sympathy. That really sucks. Fingers crossed that he'll snap out of it soon!

[Catersun]

Sympathy- some horses just don't get along. *shrug* nothing you can do about it. I would be actively looking for a different barn if I were you. It never hurts to have something else in line just in case even if he does settle in and stop being a doofus.

[tabula rashah]

This may sound crazy, but if he's always been happy go lucky with whoever he's been turned out with - something is wrong. I would listen to him and move.

[To the MAX]

Ugh, no advice, just sympathy! My horse is like that - totally quiet and a dream in the barn, but you really have to be careful about his turn out situation. One minute he'll be ignoring the other horse and the next he'll be running it around the field. One time he actually got a horse on the ground and wouldn't let him up!
Right now I've found two other horses that he gets along with, and he goes out with them fine, but it's also a HUGE field so he can have lots of space if he wants it. Maybe this herd just rubs your horse the wrong way? Is there an adjacent field he can go in until he settles in a bit more?

[mjrtango93]

You mentioned all his turn outs, but has he ever been out with mares with just 1 other gelding? We have found that is the worst combination. Suddenly the younger gelding turns into hell on 4 legs territorial. Maybe try doing some smaller introductions first. Just him and the old gelding, then add the more passive mare after a couple days, then the last mare. If he is getting a bit studdy you may ask the vet about depo if you really want to stay there to see if that would calm him a bit.

[Auventera Two]

So they just plopped a brand new horse right out in a pasture with 2 others? No quarantine, no introduction period, nothing? That's insane, and stupid. Ok, I'll soften that by saying that IF you know both barns really well and know the horses, the people, etc. and the horses don't come and go off the property, you "can" get away with no quarantine period. I've done it. And you "can" technically just throw two horses in together IF you know for sure that the resident horses are big puffs of marshmallow and wouldn't dare hurt a fly. I've seen this work when my friend leased a mare for the summer, and just threw her in with her gelding. But her gelding loves EVERYBODY and is dead bottom of the pecking order. The mare was a fairly dominant old broodmare so she squealed and struck once at the gelding, and from that minute on they were absolutely inseperable, best friends.

Not every horse fits into every situation. This isn't the first time I've heard of it, or seen it for myself.

For what it's worth, when I bought Amadeus, it took a LONG time to fit into my herd and even then it was just barely. I ended up keeping him separate with one other gelding. He was SO bottom on the pecking order, he would run through a fence to get away from another horse pinning ears at him. He'd run to the back corner of the pasture and stay there for hours, if another horse got after him. If Monster was within 100 feet of the water tank, he wouldn't dare go up to it. If she so much as looked in his direction he would take off running.

He is being leased by a young girl and moved to a boarding barn over a month ago. He fit right into their herd with NO problem, and now he's the dominant one! He had to get moved to stall board so the other horses have 12 hours away from him, because he was pushing them around so much.

I never EVER expected that. I expected that they would end up having to put him in an individual paddock because he was being picked on. I never expected HIM to be the dominant one! It was like he moved in there with the "get them before they get me" attitude.

[mvp]

This happened to me once-- just like you, with a solid citizen gelding I had put in every imaginable situation, knew well, yada yada. I was surprised and embarrassed to have appeared to lie about the trustworthiness of Momma's Precious Pookah.

I think you can do a couple of things to help. Make it clear to your BO that you want to work with her to solve the problem. Nothing is more frustrating than an owner who told you Momma's Precious Pookah was an Angel... and then he was not... and then Momma doesn't believe you or lift a finger to help.

And if he were mine, I might ask the BO to put him in the small solo paddock now rather than later. Perhaps the new place and this combination of buddies is too much for him. He might chill with the new horses once he has new place figured out.

It is strange when the previously good citizens decide to be a-holes. In my horse's case, this unfortunate change correlated with him retiring from the show ring. Either this horse misses punching a clock, or he was always a spoiled POS who had the lid kept on by his Boss who kept him toeing the line. Without a job, this horse is probably bored and understandably self-centered. He's got nothing better to think about than which horse gets which pile of hay first.

If this is your horse's deal, you can help by showing up often and continuing to ask him to do something-- think and take orders from you. That may satisfy him and remind him that he's not a gangster.

[sar2008]

You mentioned all his turn outs, but has he ever been out with mares with just 1 other gelding? We have found that is the worst combination.

This is what happened to my gelding so I second this opinion. If he's not used to being turned out with 1 gelding and the rest mares, this may be the problem. I ended up having to separate my guy for a week until he settled, and became less heard bound. I then turned him out with everyone else and he was fine.

[EqTrainer]

I would separate him right now, before a child or adult or horse gets hurt. You will be so sorry and you can't go back...

[mp]

The other horses (2 mares and a 30-something year old gelding)

Has he been turned out with mares before? If not, that can make some geldings go cuckoo.

Also, I'm surprised there wasn't more introduction time. The only way I'd be that casual would be if the newcomer had been turned out with that same herd before. And even then, I usually give them a few hours in an adjacent paddock to have a few nose-to-nose moments to reintroduce themselves.

I'd take him out of that situation and put him across the fence from them. For at least a week. Then try again. Hope you can work it out.

Oops -- sorry just saw that someone else asked the same question ...

[mvp]

On second thought, and if he is getting older (in his mind) put him out alone now, but for a different reason.

When horses age and start to feel a little vulnerable in a herd situation because of that, they have only two options. The get meek and try to stay out of the way of more powerful horses. Or they come out fighting, perhaps believing that if they pull out all the stops and kick some a$$, they'll be ok.

While he is alone, his uncertainty about the new place will get resolved. He may not need it, but you can give him a refresher course on being polite when handled.

He might adjust to the herd well later. Or it may be that the particular group of horse personalities in the group will push his little buttons.

You might ask your BO to keep him alone for at least a couple of weeks. If you can be there when he gets turned out in the big group to evaluate and catch him up if necessary, so much the better. At least that gives him a shot at adjusting to this place and some time to look for a new barn if it doesn't promise to work or the BO has decided she can't trust him. Try to make it work, but don't force any horse or person if it won't.

[JoZ]

How small is the small solo paddock? Is it really too small for two? Is it within sight of the larger pasture?

I ask because (a) if he's in the small paddock by himself BUT can meet the other horses over the fence, they may grow used to one another, and (b) if the small paddock could accommodate two -- with a gazillion piles of hay if necessary -- I would pull one of the horses in with him in there. I think you are supposed to start with the most dominant? But don't quote me on that part.

We have friendly submissive ones, friendly dominant ones, pi$$y submissive ones... you get the picture. We always pick a friendly one to do the meet-and-greet, but sometimes we guess wrong as to whether dominant or submissive would work better.

They have their own personalities and likes and dislikes. We have horses go from top to bottom of the pile and back again just based on whom they are with, whether it's grass or dry lot, etc. My old gelding got along with everyone except for the love of God and all that is holy do NOT try him as a babysitter! Gosh he hated the babies LOL. Live and learn... but just because you learn something doesn't work does not mean NOTHING will work. Good luck!

[Cloverbarley]

He's spent his life being at the bottom or close to the bottom of herds. He has now found himself at the top and is revelling in the power. Happens all the time if people are not aware of their herds and the dynamics within them.

You wouldn't believe the amount of times new boarders tell me their horse is at the bottom of the herd, doesn't cause any bother etc. and they are more than likely telling the truth because that's what their horses have been like previously in more dominant herds. Some of these people ask to have their horses put in quieter, more laid back herds and I never agree until I've met the horse. Sometimes, on meeting the horse I see that it is indeed a passive animal, however more often than not, they aren't displaying true passivity and I know the horse will turn if I put him in a gentle herd. I know my herds soooo well and know exactly how they will react to a newcomer.

I suspect your horse will settle in time and they will all be happy in that little herd. However it could take some adjustment time for your boy to realise that he can be top-dog without being harmful and bullying. There's a subtle art to being a herd leader, an art to which the majority of horses are simply not capable of achieving. I admire and cherish my herd leaders because they are the ones who make everything run smoothly.

It's only been a very short time. This would have happened regardless of whether they had over the fence interaction or not, so don't blame yourself. It's just one of those things. Your options are either to hang on in there until they figure it all out and your boy stops on the power-trip, or you move him to be on his own, or you introduce a proper herd leader to keep them all in order.

[SMF11]

He's spent his life being at the bottom or close to the bottom of herds. He has now found himself at the top and is revelling in the power. Happens all the time if people are not aware of their herds and the dynamics within them.

I agree with this. Our pony is very low on the pecking order, and when my new 17 h. TB came the pony spent a few days chasing the TB around the field -- revelling in the unheard-of power he had! It took about three days for the TB to figure it out and for the pony to resume his usual spot in the pecking order, on the very bottom.

Clover Barley has much more experience than me, but if it is possible I'd try a more gradual introduction and see how it goes.

[Bit O Groby]

He's spent his life being at the bottom or close to the bottom of herds. He has now found himself at the top and is revelling in the power. Happens all the time if people are not aware of their herds and the dynamics within them.

You wouldn't believe the amount of times new boarders tell me their horse is at the bottom of the herd, doesn't cause any bother etc. and they are more than likely telling the truth because that's what their horses have been like previously in more dominant herds. Some of these people ask to have their horses put in quieter, more laid back herds and I never agree until I've met the horse. Sometimes, on meeting the horse I see that it is indeed a passive animal, however more often than not, they aren't displaying true passivity and I know the horse will turn if I put him in a gentle herd. I know my herds soooo well and know exactly how they will react to a newcomer.

I suspect your horse will settle in time and they will all be happy in that little herd. However it could take some adjustment time for your boy to realise that he can be top-dog without being harmful and bullying. There's a subtle art to being a herd leader, an art to which the majority of horses are simply not capable of achieving. I admire and cherish my herd leaders because they are the ones who make everything run smoothly.

It's only been a very short time. This would have happened regardless of whether they had over the fence interaction or not, so don't blame yourself. It's just one of those things. Your options are either to hang on in there until they figure it all out and your boy stops on the power-trip, or you move him to be on his own, or you introduce a proper herd leader to keep them all in order.

this. Interesting how horses do not always keep their status, and how submissive horses become overly dominant, given the "right" circumstances. Your boy seems like he's on a power - high, with the mares / and 1 elderly gelding. I am surprised that he was turned out immediately with his "new herd".

At my farm, we have 1 gelding who is a punk and bully to mares, and other geldings. For the longest time, he was in solo turn-out. In comes a well-seasoned teen-aged TB gelding. Put the "punk" right in place. I was so glad!

Hope that the situation with your horse gets resolved, but I would keep him solo for a while, and then try to introduce him one @ a time.

[cloudyandcallie]

This may sound crazy, but if he's always been happy go lucky with whoever he's been turned out with - something is wrong. I would listen to him and move.

Yes.

[saultgirl]

Just some sympathy here from me. In one herd my horse will get the crap kicked out of him (just stands frozen instead of running away!) to the point of another (larger) horse grabbing him by the neck and throwing him through the fence -- and in another herd he rules the roost. He will herd his mares a little and he gets first choice at the food. He can go in mixed herds. He was out with two geldings and one mare and he was second-in-command.

When people ask me what he's like with other horses, I say he's mostly good but it depends on what the other horses are like. I never make a promise that he will be good because I don't want to look like I'm a liar!

[RedMare01]

One suggestion that hasn't been offered yet: what about ulcers? The move could have caused him a lot of stress and he could be feeling bad? Not sure how likely it is, but you could try a few 1/2 tubes of Ulcerguard just to check.

Caitlin