Question About Personality & Ground Manners

[King's Ransom]

My DH's new horse, who is a wonderful little trail horse and completely unflappable under saddle, has horrible ground manners. He is the second horse like this that I have known. Get on board, he's a rock-solid dream and very safe. On the ground -- it's like he's mentally handicapped. Doesn't understand about respecting personal space, where to put his feet, backing out of the way, lowering his head for haltering, being "caught," or picking up his feet. Just totally un-mannered and a pain-in-the-arse. (He is new, and believe me, we are working on these things!)

On the other hand, I have an OTTB and an Oldenberg who both can get excitable and challenging under saddle ... but their ground manners are impeccable! They would rather die than step on you. They lower their heads for haltering. Very respectful and gentle. And they learn super-quick. Both of them will pick up their feet for hoof-picking -- in order -- before you even ask. I swear I could bring either one of them into the house and they would not knock over a vase! But, neither of them is as steady and rock-solid under saddle as the little un-mannered oaf.

Thoughts? Is this just a quirk I have stumbled onto, or do you guys see this, too?

[Amchara]

I'd venture to guess that the OTTB and Old. have backgrounds in disciplines where people usually, but not always, insist on impeccable ground manners and need a horse who is "active" in the brain/body to harness that energy for something useful. Hence a horse that lowers its head for a halter but spooks when the arena drag was moved three inches.

I know a lot of QHs owned/raised by people who want to pack around the woods and be safe, and necessarily don't know how to instill the tools in a horse for lowering the head for haltering or to pick up its feet on command.

[coloredcowhorse]

Horses that were just never taught the basics of ground manners in the first place and then someone decided to make a riding horse out of them....and probably did a good job of correcting mistakes/bad behavior under saddle and didn't care if they were butt heads on the ground. Have seen a lot of trainers, esp in situations where the owner isn't going anywhere with the horse except to trail ride, brought a poorly mannered horse to the trainer to "break" and the trainer did just that....broke the horse to ride and lets the owner deal with the monster they created on the ground.

Going back to basics should help but will take longer and be harder than with a youngster that should have learned this to begin with.

[Alter1234]

I've seen it too! I had a little trail mare who was a real pistol on the ground. It's like whoever trained her under saddle did nothing about ground manners. It took awhile (and lots of treats) but eventually she was just as good on the ground as she was under saddle.

[TheJenners]

It could also be that the super unflappable ones are used for less experienced riders who don't know how to enforce ground manners? My pony was used for w/t kids and had horrible manners. Would try to drag you off, yank her head down to graze and not pick it up without booting her in the jaw, walk in front of/on top of you. Bratty. But little kids can't make a horse behave as well as an adult...

[FlashGordon]

After a decade of doing lessons, my horse was just like Jenner's.

He got introduced to a stud chain and a dressage whip real quick! And no I don't beat horses... those tools allow you to finesse cues so you AREN'T beating on them! Within a month he was a totally different horse. I also taught him voice commands and he will even back up if I point a finger at him.

He's a confident, dominant type of horse and will walk all over you if you let him. Same under saddle. But he is smart and definitely gets with the program quick.

Now I did have a freak of a horse that was lovely under saddle (99% of the time) but an absolute unpredictable nutjob on the ground. He truly had a screw loose.

Those are less common than just the average joe horse that's had poor handling, which is probably the case with your guy.

[CFFarm]

horses respect a calm, firm but fair leader. They crave leadership in fact. If they don't have one or have never had one, they will fill the gap and be leader.

[rainechyldes]

I tend to side with the lack of ground training on most horses for this.

I will admit though - I have owned one horse who was terribad on the ground, and never ever managed to get him out of it. And I couldn't even use the excuse that he'd learned/not learned from someone else, as he was home bred.

When he was 45 minutes old, I put on his baby halter - it took me 2 hours. Right there I knew I was in for a heck of a ride. His entire life it was like having a tornado standing beside me whenever I was on the ground.

- his only saving grace was he was one hell of an endurance horse - I miss him everyday.

[Auventera Two]

I am very happy that every horse here has excellent ground manners and I have NO problems with any of them. I can lead them around by their blankets, their mane, or just a hand under their jaw. I can trim hooves and give vaccinations without a halter or lead in sight. I can grab a handful of tail hairs and back the horse up wherever I want them to go.

When the stallion was still here, I could bring him in from the pasture and park him "in the crossties" without ever putting a halter on his head or a rope around his neck. He would stand there ALL day, not tied, if you wanted him to.

I'm sure there are horses that just never get it and have terrible ground manners their whole life but for most of them, it just takes a lot of work, time, and to earn the horse's respect. They need to understand that you ARE the herd leader, period. If they don't understand that, you'll never be able to do anything with them. And I do believe that some horses just never completely understand the idea of a human being the leader. I'm fortunate that I've not owned such a horse yet. Sweets is the closest thing to that that I own, as she is a persistent tester and envelope pusher, but she's gotten over a lot of that since she's matured.

One of my borders is a retired champion Paint horse that's traveled the country and back, and he is SO well trained. It's really cool. When I clean his stall, I drive the wheelbarrow in there and park it in the corner, and he automatically swings his butt left or right to accommodate wherever I am. I don't have to say a word to him. He just knows. Human comes up on left with a manure fork, I move to the right until I'm against the wall. My others are almost that good, but he's the best.

The Percheron is also really great about it. He can feel the tiniest little tickle on his shoulder or hip and he'll move over as far as you want to move him with about the pressure of a fly landing on his hair.

[naturalequus]

My DH's new horse, who is a wonderful little trail horse and completely unflappable under saddle, has horrible ground manners. He is the second horse like this that I have known. Get on board, he's a rock-solid dream and very safe. On the ground -- it's like he's mentally handicapped. Doesn't understand about respecting personal space, where to put his feet, backing out of the way, lowering his head for haltering, being "caught," or picking up his feet. Just totally un-mannered and a pain-in-the-arse. (He is new, and believe me, we are working on these things!)

On the other hand, I have an OTTB and an Oldenberg who both can get excitable and challenging under saddle ... but their ground manners are impeccable! They would rather die than step on you. They lower their heads for haltering. Very respectful and gentle. And they learn super-quick. Both of them will pick up their feet for hoof-picking -- in order -- before you even ask. I swear I could bring either one of them into the house and they would not knock over a vase! But, neither of them is as steady and rock-solid under saddle as the little un-mannered oaf.

Thoughts? Is this just a quirk I have stumbled onto, or do you guys see this, too?

Donning my flame suit but see this is why I fail to understand peoples' sheer disgust or snark at Parelli's "Horsenalities" - something described by numerous NH professionals not associated with Parelli, even. The behaviour you describe is easily comprehendable simply via understanding a horse's individual personality and thus why it acts the way it does.

Just real quickly (hopefully this makes sense to you and does not simply add to the confusion) ... horse personalities (or "horsenalities", if you will) can be categorized into four different categories. On a personal level, I have yet to meet a horse who does not somehow fit into a category. They may exhibit behaviours or tendencies towards other categories, however they will ultimately fall into one category or another. Balancing or centering a horse - ie. developing them to the point that extreme behaviours/tendencies disappear - can make it more difficult sometimes to differentiate the base personality. Understanding them and their category has immensely progressed my training over the years. I will try not to drag this out but to at the same time give an explanation from my personal perspective.

Horses will either be Extrovert or Introvert (same as people) and will either be Left-brain or Right-brain. However, they may exhibit tendencies. For example, I am a classic introvert individual, but I DO exhibit extrovert tendencies at times. My horses might be foundationally left-brain or right-brain, but my left-brain horses might have right-brain tendencies and my right-brain horses will become better balanced and more left-brain or "centered" as I develop them (and vice versa). Example: my 6yo OTTB gelding is a LBE - very high-energy, very playful, very dominant, very much a thinker. Yet when I purchased him, you could barely tell he was a Left-brain, he had such extreme Right-brain tendencies. He reacted to EVERYTHING and when he did, he EXPLODED. He acted almost introvert - EVERYTHING was beyond his emotional capabilities, he couldn't handle much stimulation without it crossing his threshold and his exploding. His right-brain tendencies meant he RAN or otherwise exploded reactively when stressed. As I worked with him - developed him emotionally (ie. taught him to think situations through and to handle his emotions better - be calmer, braver, smarter), he became less right-brain and less introvert and more his "base self".

Extrovert - this is the horse who is playful (they have their nose in everything), high-energy, and has a lot of "go", or forward. This horse appreciates activities whereby he can move his feet. Just like the extroverted party person we all know

Introvert - this type of horse tends to bottle up their emotions rather than wear them on their sleeve, so to speak (like most men, hah!). You can never push these horses - with the right-brain introvert you will end up with a fearful explosion and with the left-brain introvert you will end up with a sullen and resistant horse. They tend to be lazy and have more "woah", or less impulsion. He is lower energy, loves rest breaks, and moves slow. He appreciates having to move his mind versus his feet.

Left-brain - tend to be dominant (via their front end, so they are pushy up front, mouthy, etc), brave, confident, calm, tolerant. They think situations through carefully and you have to be focused more on respect in the trust/respect balance.

Right-brain - tend to be submissive, fearful, flighty, nervous, reactive. You are focused more on developing trust in your partnership with this horse -in you, in your leadership (ability to lead and keep the horse safe), and in the horse itself (confidence), as opposed to respect in the trust/respect balance of a relationship

More in-depth on each:
RBI (Right-brain Introvert)
The RBI is often recognizable by its stance – it will stand with all four feet underneath him (ready to propel him forward) and his ears flicked back as he keeps an “eye” on what might be occurring behind him. It is often easy to move their front end around, but more difficult to move the hind end around; this is because a horse’s power is derived from its hind end, so he is not going to want said hind end to be disengaged or otherwise compromised, should he find it necessary to flee. He will be defensive through his hind; you may even find it difficult to pick up his feet, particularly his hinds (if the horse has somewhat extreme tendencies). Because they are RB, these horses have a tendency to react first and think later. The Introvert aspect of them results in their cooping up their emotions – they keep everything inside. This is why they will often pause at a request – not because they are being rebellious, but because they have to get past their emotions for a moment so as to think the situation through and decide how to react. If they are pushed and are not allowed the time to think, boom, their emotions explode. The horse will either give up all fight or will explode “out of nowhere” after freezing and “running away inside”. Thus, one has to match their energy level to the horse in question – a RBI requires a person to go slow and to have the same very “soft” energy that they have. They are looking for leadership and so require a strong leadership and trust in their rider. Rather than walking up to these horses, have them instead come up to YOU. Back away from them as you face them, to draw them towards you; at liberty, they are more likely to approach you from behind than to parade up in front of you. Do not walk up to their heads – walk up to their shoulders; doing so allows them to then turn their heads and touch YOU rather than vice versa. Directing them to touch various “scary objects” and leading them through obstacles (and then directing them to do it themselves) really develops their confidence and thus their curiosity.
This was my (late) 6yo Paint and is my 4yo OTTB mare, to a T! Both very defensive about their hinds (prior abuse), needed time to process, had to work hard to earn their trust, tendency to be tense and forward u/s and very careful and respectful on the ground. Both have (had) WONDERFUL minds overall though so are (were) very dependable horses in general.

LBI (Left-brain Introvert)
These are the horses most apt to buck in resistance and are the most likely to be pushy and labeled as lazy because they refuse to move forward (especially under force). They are likely to use their nose as a sort of weapon – whether it be to push their handler over or to nip at their pockets as they demand treats. LB horses are always getting into things and LBI’s specifically are very happy to stand a distance from you with an insolent look on their face. You will usually find it more difficult to push their front end around than their hind, since horses dominate through their front end. These horses cannot be pushed or forced – at their worst, they will either retaliate or will simply shut down, which is why it is vital to EARN their respect so that they WANT to do what you ask. In addition, they are very rest and food motivated. They require a great deal of assertiveness and will challenge your authority at anything (even picking up their feet), but often also demand that their rider be fair. With a LBI in particular, one definitely wants to match their energy level – act as if they are going too fast and you want them to slow down (even if they are simply plodding - the power of reverse psychology)!! Reward the slightest try with rest and they will give you more. Same as with the RBI, it pays to have these horses come to you and to approach their shoulder versus their head. These horses are also more difficult to have approach you though, as they are very independent and confident alone (I've spotted my LBI, a 10yo DWBx gelding, out grazing at pasture in the middle of some of the worst blizzards, content by himself, whilst everyone else huddles together in the shelter - trying to get him or his sister, also a DWBx LBI, to work WITH me rather than use their intelligence for evil purposes, was labourous to say the least). You do not have a problem (usually) with herdboundness on these horses as they are very self-confident.
The 10yo DWBx is the most dependable horse I have - I throw beginners on him without hesitation (he is currently teaching novices) because he is utterly (naturally) bombproof. Pushy on the ground though and lazy u/s if the person does not have his respect (not so much so that he is unsafe though, as I have done a lot of work on him to develop him, but still he is ultimately a LBI with those, albeit moderate, natural propensities).

LBE
These guys LOVE to move their feet, play with various objects, and move their minds. With an extreme LBE, you might have a lot of trouble slowing them down; allow them to move forward a little, then stop and rest, gradually increasing the time and speed of forward motion but stopping them before they get worked up and take off. They bore easily and so require mental stimulation – you always have to be one step ahead of them in developing exercises that keep their minds busy. They are also very dominant and since they love to move their feet, can be apt to getting into trouble under-saddle – they are very “in your face” and extroverted! On the ground, it might be difficult to move their front ends around and under-saddle, it can be difficult to motivate them (rest! mental stimulation!). They require a rider to earn a great deal of respect as well. LBE’s can be quite insolent in the things they do as well and will challenge your authority or retaliate if they perceive you to be unfair. Since they are very confident, like the LBI they are difficult to create “draw” in – that is to say, it can be difficult to have them approach you and stick with you at liberty since they are sufficiently confident to be off on their own. If they feel you are providing insufficient leadership, they will take the leadership “into their own hooves”.
My 6yo OTTB gelding is a classic LBE example. Very high-energy, forward, and playful. I was told I was crazy to buy him because he was such a mischievous and rebellious nut on the track. He also exhibited a ton of RB tendencies when I purchased him - so much so he seemed like an RBI at the time. Easy to take him out on trail rides alone but if he perceives me to not be taking proper leadership, he'll do what he feels appropriate (he questions my leadership fairly consistently, though less so as time goes on and our partnership progresses) - if he does not find me dependable over jumps, he will refuse and if he thinks we are going the wrong way on the trail, he will turn the other way of his own accord. He might or might not meet me in the pasture - I have to really earn it from him! As I develop my partnership with him he questions me less though and seeks to be with me more ie. he is less inclined to question me about jumps (plus, he loves it!), he is motivated to work hard at dressage, and is more inclined to "help" me (ie. halter himself, stand still for me to do certain things, etc).

RBE
The RBE is a horse who requires strong leadership, as he possesses much of the same qualities as the RBI, except he is obviously an Extrovert, versus being an Introvert. This horse can also be dominant and pushy, particularly through his front end, like the LBE. He is naturally not as confident as an LBE though and is more afraid than bold. Much like the RBI, barn sourness can be an issue if you are presenting insufficient leadership – if they do not feel you can ensure their survival, they will ensure it themselves by returning to the protection of the herd at home! Their first instinct is to react rather than think, so they need to be taught to be “calmer, braver, smarter” and to rely upon your leadership for direction (which must be earned). If punished, this horse is more apt to develop distrust and to become fearful. Since he feels an innate need to move his feet, he will exert a great deal of energy to flight.
This is my Quarab. VERY high-energy and expressive (ALWAYS tie this horse with half a dozen loops, else he will untie himself, he's always got something in his mouth and will push you with his nose if he so chooses). He will take over leadership if he feels you are doing an inadequate job (that's the extrovert in him), however he is also the horse who is so submissive that he will initially enter a herd head down, submissive stance, without fight whatsoever. He is also the horse I find annoying other horses, trying to play fight (extrovert!) Since herd is so important to him, it is also pretty easy to earn partnership with him ie. if I am working with him regularly and am his trusty partner, I can call him in from 40 acres and he'll come in, all excited to see his friend!

So as an additional side note, as one develops a horse, while they still maintain their “base horsenality”, the horse will become balanced and better rounded – they will become a less extreme version of their horsenality. For example, a Right-brain Introvert at its extreme might never be curious, tucking its emotions away inside, and always prone to explosion if pushed the slightest. As the horse is developed and its emotions “balanced” however, the same horse can develop confidence and thus curiosity (become more extroverted and thus more “centered”), and be less prone to explosion and more prone to trusting your leadership and thinking a situation through. If you can, imagine a scale, where Extrovert and Introvert exist at opposite ends of the scale. The same can be done with RB and LB. Your job as a horseman is to “center” a horse so that it, when fully developed, sits as close to the center of the scale as possible – not overly Extrovert nor Introvert, and not overly instinctive but also not overly “thinking”.

OP sounds like the first horse in your post might be an LBI where your other two could be RBE's. It's hard to tell from such a brief description though, but hopefully my explanation above helps. Your LBI's are great beginner mounts because they tend to be so tolerant and bombproof. Your RBE's tend to be more reactive u/s but if they are only moderate and do not have extreme tendencies, they will be quieter on the ground (so much so they might be otherwise pretty stable on the ground) and careful about where they are in relation to you, because they have the natural inclination to be submissive.

So in short, it is not just a quirk of those individual horses that you have stumbled on, it is a result of their root personalities and thus behaviour and psychology.

[naturalequus]

Sorry, didn't mean to write a novel in my last post!! On the topic in general, I find ground-work ties in with u/s work HUGE. There is no such thing as "breaking a horse u/s" whilst it having terrible ground manners. Those terrible ground manners - that attitude in GENERAL is going to show up u/s, though it might not be obvious due to the horse's natural personality. A horse does not decide to be one horse on the ground and something completely different u/s. Disrespect might manifest itself in the form of a "lazy" horse irresponsive to aids, but it will be there somewhere. The horse excessively cautious on the ground is going to be as such (maybe even extreme) u/s. It's all related. Hence the reason ground work is so indicative and useful.

[mp]

My DH's new horse, who is a wonderful little trail horse and completely unflappable under saddle, has horrible ground manners.

At a Ray Hunt clinic I attended, one of the auditors asked him a question about her horse. She described her horse as "well broke" when she rode him, but the horse led poorly, didn't stand to be groomed, have his feet picked etc etc.

Mr Hunt: Lady, your horse ain't broke.

Auditor: But he does everything I ask under saddle, he's so well trained to ride --

Hunt: Lady, a horse that acts broke only when he wants to ain't broke.

WHY your DH's horse is that way is anybody's guess. But it has nothing to do with whether the horse is "unflappable" or not. As others have pointed out, some people just don't take the time to teach their horses ground manners. Or maybe the horse was trained at one point, but people let him get away with the bad ground manners. Doesn't matter now.

You have a horse that "ain't broke." And it would be a good idea if you fixed him.

ETA one more thought -- If you actually asked the horse to do something besides walk or trot down a trail, you might find that he's not really all that well broke under saddle either. That is not a slam on trail riders. But I've ridden horses that people assured me were dead broke when what they meant was the horse didn't react to much -- including a rider's cues.

[MistyBlue]

KR, does he just not know what's acceptable or is he challenging you during handling?

My first horse was both...a witch on the ground and a bigger witch under saddle. She didn't really know any manners, but also didn't care to know them either, LOL! During her teaching process she learned what was right and what was wrong and then ignored it anyways.

With her it just took time...time and more time. Just constant repeating of what's good and what's not and never letting her slide on anything. But also never picking any fights. (or rising to her bait when she tried to pick a fight) And then she went from witch to sweetheart. (on the ground, she'd always challenge people under saddle)
Oddly enough she was always a dream with children.

Gal was similar, but nowhere near as bad as Blue was. Gal knew her ground manners and also knew if she pushed hard, most of the humans she had known would back down. So she pushed and tested. She was a major witchy handful when I got her. It was hilarious...she'd try everything under the sun and then you could see her watching you to gauge your reaction. Almost like a little thought bubble popping up with "Did that work? Do you leave me alone now?" over her head. (okay, I thought it was hilarious, the BO not so much)
But once she learned nobody got scared of the oversized moose dragging, barging, crowding, popping little rears, etc and those only made her get worked more, she gave it up quick and under the bluster we found one of the best mannered mares.

So keep plugging along with the ground manners training...never let the new guy get away with anything even once. But don't pick fights. Just stay consistent and neutral. They either learn the manners if they never knew them or they remember their ground manners after they''ve tested everyone and everything and lost each test.

And yep, there are horses who will give a person more crap on the ground then in the saddle and vice-versa.

[King's Ransom]

MB wrote:

So keep plugging along with the ground manners training...never let the new guy get away with anything even once. But don't pick fights. Just stay consistent and neutral. They either learn the manners if they never knew them or they remember their ground manners after they''ve tested everyone and everything and lost each test.

MB, I think you give good advice! I don't think Rocky knows any better. He is NOT pushy or challenging. He just seems ... well, he seems dumb. But I don't think he is. For background, this little guy was neglected and left out in a field for six years, so maybe he was never taught, or just forgot?

He is very trustworthy under saddle, and he is devoted to my DH (won't take his eyes off of him if he is anywhere near). He marches up mountainsides like a tank, walks faithfully through any water crossing, and when others are losing their ever-loving minds, he keeps DH safe and sound. He is a very fine little horse under saddle.

I don't think he means to be naughty. He just seems ... sorta dense?

He does not push me, does not offer his hiney or his teeth.

I guess he sort of reminds me of my little dog I rescued from the pound. Took the little guy about six weeks to figure out I was talking TO him and not just around him!

[naturalequus]

While MB is entirely right (I can list off similar experiences, and MB's advice is spot-on), mp is right though as well - just because he marches up mountainsides, walks faithfully through water, and keeps his mind, does not mean he is "broke" all-round. His doing as such is a result of his type of personality - it is how he is. Ask more of him (such as boring arena work, intricate and complex patterns, transitions, etc) - whatever challenges him, and you would see more resistance from him; the same type of behaviour he exibits on the ground. Which is why I mentioned my DWB and Paint as examples of LBI. Those types of horses are bold, fearless, and bombproof. Naturally (if no one has messed with them, but that is their natural tendency). That doesn't make them "broke".

Forgive me for being so bold, but of course he does not offer his hiney or teeth. He has no reason to - no one is challenging his leadership (not that he necessarily would offer hiney or teeth if he were challenged though of course). He has no reason to escalate his communication though because obviously he is already achieving the hierarchy he was seeking. He is simply dominating through his front end because a) whoever is on the ground with him is not assertive enough so he is taking over leadership and doing as he pleases and b) he possibly knows no better, whether he was never taught or it is not being asked of him now (he is not a robot, so even if he was taught in the past, respect will not automatically carry through unless his current handlers ask it of him).

I have yet to meet a stupid horse. Just horses who "appeared" stupid due to their inherent personalities (or lack of maturity). If he is not "getting it" then you are not wording it right to him.

Basically: if a horse is unresponsive to you on the ground and is pushy, he is playing dominance games with you (not necessarily agressively or anything, just assertively, or passive-assertively) and is disrespectful. Plain and simple. Just imagine him in a herd. That WILL carry up u/s though because it is a general attitude, though it might not be apparent or obvious at all, depending on what you are asking of him. If you are doing things he likes and that come naturally to him and his (in this case, bold, CONFIDENT, stable) personality, of course you won't have any problems - it is possible you never push him to where his disrespect manifests in a negative way u/s. His behaviour and interaction with you is a reflection of your relationship with him.

[King's Ransom]

I'm not actually buying into the "horseonality" concept, but it is interesting. I'd like to know your take on my other guy. The OTTB -- who everybody thinks would be nervous and excitable, and turns out to be my best-mannered, rock-solid, calm-everyone-down fellow?

More background -- I have a good, solid three-month relationship with the OTTB, and have only know my DH's horse personally for about 5 days.

Cooper, the thoroughbred, came into the barn and seemed to survey the situation. He knows which stall is his, and which ones are not. He knows he gets food, hay, water, privacy and lots of loving in his stall. He will walk calmly in at night and right into his stall. No matter what manner of kafuffle is going on around him. He has done this every night since he arrived.

Rocky (DH's horse) still seems not know what the inside of a barn is about. He acts as if he is being led into the slaughterhouse instead of a nice, clean stall with food, hay and water.

Just got back in from bringing them in and I have to say tonight was better. We are making progress, and I'm sure Rocky will be fine.

I just was quite surprised that the one I expected to be calm and sane (based on our trail and arena riding together) is my nutcase, while the (supposedly) excitable one (Cooper) is calm and easy.

[magicteetango]

KR, I'm so glad you're posting again, I've missed your stories! Not to bring up a sad subject, but it sounds like Rocky is a bit like Chester was when you first got him, took him some time to get with the program.

I have a horse that tends to be very pushy, mouthy, etc. It's an uphill battle with him to get him to continue to have respect for me, or anyone else (horses included... Their butts are not there as your constant scratching post, buddy). He will behave, but he'll always test. When I first got him, they used a stud chain on him when they lead him, because he'd run through his halter to whatever grass struck his fancy.

I make him practice halting, backing, moving sideways, etc. If he's really dull, I would do like Flash said and use a stud chain and dressage whip. Again, don't beat on him, but make him aware of you and make him listen to the questions you are asking.

[mp]

If your TB came off the track, being in a barn is old hat. OTTBs are sometimes unexpectedly calm in some situations because they're used to a lot of activity going on around them. To Rocky, it's all new. And that confirms to me that he isn't "broke" -- as in no one has taken the time to teach him much. I'm sure he'll be fine in time. Just be patient.

About the Horsenality stuff -- I think it's very interesting and in some ways true. But like a lot of other Parelli/NH stuff, it's value is limited if the handler/owner doesn't know much about horses.

[cleozowner]

I agree with FlashGordon...I think it's the quiet, confident ones who are also overly confident in their abilities to take charge of their situation (and you in the process). My current boy is very "in control," but when I first got him and he tried to take control of me, out came the stud chain and dressage whip just like FG's. Every so often he might try something (like try to walk just a little bit past me when getting led to the barn), but if I correct it right then he stops there. I often lead him with the chain over his nose as I find I NEVER have to use it when it's there...a lot like carrying a crop while riding, I suppose.

[naturalequus]

I'm not actually buying into the "horseonality" concept, but it is interesting. I'd like to know your take on my other guy. The OTTB -- who everybody thinks would be nervous and excitable, and turns out to be my best-mannered, rock-solid, calm-everyone-down fellow?

More background -- I have a good, solid three-month relationship with the OTTB, and have only know my DH's horse personally for about 5 days.

Cooper, the thoroughbred, came into the barn and seemed to survey the situation. He knows which stall is his, and which ones are not. He knows he gets food, hay, water, privacy and lots of loving in his stall. He will walk calmly in at night and right into his stall. No matter what manner of kafuffle is going on around him. He has done this every night since he arrived.

Rocky (DH's horse) still seems not know what the inside of a barn is about. He acts as if he is being led into the slaughterhouse instead of a nice, clean stall with food, hay and water.

Just got back in from bringing them in and I have to say tonight was better. We are making progress, and I'm sure Rocky will be fine.

I just was quite surprised that the one I expected to be calm and sane (based on our trail and arena riding together) is my nutcase, while the (supposedly) excitable one (Cooper) is calm and easy.

You don't have to buy into anything, it's just about understanding basic personality types and being able to thusly adapt your training program to suit.

My take on the other horse? He has a very different personality type from your DH's horse Rocky, plain and simple. Tack on past experience and development or lack thereof, and you get the horse you have. Whether they are off the track or not does not matter though of course certain breeds have certain tendencies too and management of horses (such as on the track) contribute to either developing or damaging a horse (ie. creating moderate or extreme behaviours in them, based on their base personality). Due to their type of personality (which can be moderate or extreme, which will also depend on a horse's past) they will handle certain situations a certain way, or within certain parameters. Due to the individual horse and its own experiences and insecurities/confidence level, certain behaviours will manifest differently. However they will result from his personality - he will have certain tendencies.

DH's horse has some RB tendencies. He might be an LBI with some RB tendencies (which careful management and work will erase) or hey he might even be an RBI who just needs a little more development to teach him to relax and be confident. Or he might be something completely different. His RB tendencies are either the result of a lack of handling or mismanagement that has caused him to act as thus or it is the result of his base personality and insufficient work (in which case, you just need to balance him out a little). Again, I cannot tell from your brief descriptions exactly what types of personalities your horses have or why they are the way they are. On the other hand, I can give you an example of two horses I have (had) who are similar:

My (now deceased) 6yo Paint was utterly BOMBPROOF u/s. Yes he had a tendency to be initially tense u/s and was defensive of his hinds, but he had a GREAT mind in general and once you earned his trust, the other issues (man-made) disolved. I had to work hard to earn his trust; if I did not handle him regularly I usually had to do some liberty work beforehand before he would relax and "allow me in". He was a RBI and had been severly abused, so he was fairly extreme. So introverted he had NO curiosity and at times would just block me out completely. Right-brain about certain situations - like walking through a barn. Take him in a barn and he would visibly shake and be very uncomfortable - furtively looking for the exits. Yet he was otherwise great on the ground and absolutely amazing u/s - situations in which he had not been abused. Took to every kind of terrain and situation I could put him through on a ranch (including miles of bog, sloshing through water, up and down steep cliffs, handling cattle, etc) and he took to it like a duck to water - on a loose rein. Your DH's RB tendencies obviously do not stem from abuse however you can see how he might have an otherwise great mind but have certain RB tendencies then (like his aversion to the barn) for certain reasons. Barns are not natural to horses, especially considering they are claustrophobic prey animals - they are enclosed caves nature has spent centuries teaching them to avoid. Your DH's horse, you mention, spent you say 6 years doing nothing - is he even used to barns?

My 15yo Quarab could be somewhat comparable to your OTTB. Very high-energy horse, very playful, very extroverted. Little pushy with his nose but otherwise very careful about being respectful of peoples' space, at times a handful u/s to channel all that energy. Yet virtually bombproof as well - moreso on the ground than u/s though pretty solid u/s as well (naturally, and due to past experiences that have developed his confidence and experience). On the ground though, a bomb could go off next to him and he would maybe flick an ear at it but that's it. He'd venture anywhere I asked. Because he is directly following my leadership - he can visually see me, so it is easier to trust and follow my leadership. On his back, he might question me because I am not visually leading him and have not earned (at that time) his 100 percent trust in my leadership. I've had this horse since he was a foal so we have a rock-solid bond (heck, he even PEES at the same time I do when we're out riding all day) but he's ultimately still a horse so if I leave him for awhile, he is going to feel more secure around his horsey buddies than me. It's only natural - he KNOWS there is safety within the herd, nature tells him so, whereas safety with me (alone) is a little different. Therefore u/s he might at times present more of a challenge yet on the ground, he would rather die than step on you (he nearly melted the one day when he accidentally stepped on a dog that got beneath his feet!) and is calm and relaxed. With your OTTB, you've got a pretty solid relationship, but maybe he has yet to fully trust your ability to lead u/s. Hard to say because as I said, I am not there. Just pointing out general possibilities though.

A horse's natural mind - whether he has the tendency to naturally stay calm and be emotionally collected, or he was never taught to think through situations and it does not come naturally to him - also plays a role on how certain traits manifest as a result of a horse's personality. Whether or not a horse "goes the extra mile" for humans is another factor in how different things will manifest.

Due to a horse's personality, he will have certain tendencies on the ground and certain tendencies u/s. Certain tendencies will manifest more strongly than others, based on current and past handling. Basically, it just does not make sense to expect a horse to be one thing u/s and another thing on the ground. It's the same horse. It all ties in together. It might ACT differently on the ground versus u/s, but that is a result of its personality and past experiences that cause "problems" to manifest differently. Behaviours u/s are signs as to the horse's general attitude and thus will indicate towards specific behaviour on the ground (as a result of that general attitude), and vice versa. Like I said, it is all inter-related - it's the same horse.

Hope that made sense, haha. Makes more sense in my head than on paper sometimes

ETA: mp voiced what I forgot to. Your OTTB has been in and out of barns and so is desensitized and accustomed to what they are and how they work. Likely not so for your DH's horse.

All information is limited or even worthless in the wrong hands or if the individual otherwise lacks sufficient knowledge (especially to the point where they cannot grasp the concept). All horsenalities are, are a way to understand horses. Same as we can understand people so as to teach them more efficiently.