Solving the mustang "problem" by making them a big game animal? Seriously?

[jenm]

The proponents of horse slaughter have a summit coming up and the Master of Ceremonies, Trent Loos has proposed solving the wild horse issue by making them a big game animal.

A bit more on this man who is obviously a pillar of society:

Master of Ceremonies Loos is an agricultural talk show host who first
gained fame for his management of a 50,000 pig factory farm on the
land of the Rosebud Sioux. The Rosebud contended that the farm and
its vast lagoons of pig manure had been foisted on them by
politicians and successfully sued to evict Loos and his porcine pals
in 2002.

Shortly after starting an organization called "Truth Keepers" to
challenge "animal rights groups", Loos was charged with and
subsequently convicted of cattle fraud (selling cattle he didn't
own). Robert F. Kennedy Jr., in his book Crimes Against Nature,
accused Trent Loos of stalking him while he was on a book tour, going
so far as to follow him into a men's room. When asked about the
stalking charge during his radio program, Loos readily admitted it,
saying he had to keep Kennedy honest.

When a slaughter ban was being considered in Illinois, Loos promised
to bring a truck load of "unwanted horses" to the capitol steps. In
the event, he showed up with a large supply of toy stick horses which
he passed out to visiting school children. The bill passed despite
this demonstration, eventually closing the last slaughter plant in
the US.

[wehrlegirl]

This guy sounds nuts.

[wireweiners]

The problem with that idea is that big game hunters generally hunt either for the meat or for a trophy head to hang on the wall. Very few Americans eat horsemeat, its just not culturally acceptable and who would want a horse head mounted above the fireplace in their den? So the idea just isn't feasible.

[SmartAlex]

There was a bar here in town that had a nicely mounted roan horse head hanging over the bar Maybe horse hide rugs would become popular? I know that has to be about the only reason people hunt bear. The meat is quite often awful.

[danceronice]

Well, maybe you could use the hide for decorating...but really, they're not exactly hard to find or approach, there's nothing impressive about the head to mount, and even if we did eat more horsemeat stringy wild ponies are not my idea of good eatin'. I don't really see the appeal in for more than someone looking to tick off the box next to a novelty game species. That's not gonna be enough. No challenge for the sport hunters, no rack or wild hide for the trophy hunters, no meat for the food hunters.

[Coanteen]

Not all hunters want a challenge, or there'd be no clients for "canned hunts". But I'd find it hard to believe that they don't at least want to preserve the fiction of the challenge, and how many people could be convinced that bagging a pony was dangerous or difficult?

Also don't see mounted horseheads becoming popular. Maybe, maybe hides of more colorful horses, paints, some of the roans?

But really, if the answer is killing them, just do a cull.

[danceronice]

The thing is, game-farm hunts involve animals you can either EAT, or mount as a really cool trophy. Big bucks, exotic species, dangerous animals (ie stuff more exciting than your average whitetail/mule deer, a chance to hunt an elk without dying of old age trying to get a permit--oh, wait, that's just Michigan's herd)...Wild horses aren't hard to find, tricky to approach, good to eat, or especially intimidating/impressive as a mount.

[Alagirl]

'Oh Falada, da Du hangest'

Lets face it, some people shoot anything that moves (or doesn't)

And considering what some of them pay to sit somewhere in the freezing cold to maybe see and <insert game here> or likely not....

It could put some coin back in the system.

(but then again, a cull is so much less hassle...)

[Midge]

'Oh Falada, da Du hangest'

Well played!

[gieriscm]

The proponents of horse slaughter have a summit coming up and the Master of Ceremonies, Trent Loos has proposed solving the wild horse issue by making them a big game animal.

Cultural issues about eating horses and hunting aside, lawful hunting often has the opposite effect on an animal species that he's intending - the herds tend to increase in size as they are more likely to be protected and valued.

Heck, look at the white-tailed deer in the mid-Atlantic region. The seasons and bag limits on them are incredible, yet the population continues to grow.

[KrazyTBMare]

In a google search for something I cannot remember, I came across this guys blog about his trip to Australia where he went out in the bush with this guide person and they were out there to shoot/kill the wild horses (brumbes or something) and the wild camels as they are considered feral out there and damaging to the bush. He was a guy who was really into guns and what not but really spoke about making sure everyone had a clean kill shot, no animals left laying on the ground suffering, etc. Not saying one way or the other if I agree or disagree, but stuff like he is suggesting is kind of already going on in other countries. I just dont know if it would really do what they are wanting it to do.. Anyways.

[coloredcowhorse]

I live in the state with the largest mustang population. I have 47 of them within eyeball distance most days....sometimes they are up in the canyons of the mountain range to my east (2 miles away) and can't be seen but other times they are down here on the flats and raiding my haystack.

Won't happen.....first of all the "pro-mustang as an icon of American history" folks would absolutely stand in front of a hunter if they thought it might. Shoot, they are tying the hands of BLM every which way they can to prevent roundups even for using birth control on the mares and reducing the birth rate (herds double about every 5 years). Secondly, horses as large game animals are just not a challenge....I can walk up to within 200 feet of the herd here and count them, look over the herd with binoculars etc. One of the bachelor stallions has been in the field of some friends just a couple miles up the road....breaks through the electric fencing (might be shorted out on weeds) and tries to round up their mares (who are penned up in generous sized pens)....have gone up there several times to help herd him out....he's getting the hang of it and heads to the hole he created with just a little walking up with boss mare attitude on my part.

Horse meat isn't bad....drier and a bit sweeter than beef so you have to add some fat. Was available in markets in Portland, Oregon into the 70's.

Reasonable way to reduce the wild population would be vasectomies on stallions of lesser quality...leave 'em with the hormones so they will attempt or even manage to obtain a herd...none of the mares would get pregnant as long as the sterile stallion was the herd stud. Leave best quality stallions to breed...but they would have to obtain a herd to do so so their social structure would remain stable.

[Alagirl]

then again, give them a season or two being hunted and the herds won't be easy to walk up to anymore.

[JGHIRETIRE]

I think it's more the way the roundups are done that they gripe about - too many animals die doing it.
Not to mention what happens to them after they are rounded up. Don't really understand why they round up more when they don't know what to do with what they already have.

Won't happen.....first of all the "pro-mustang as an icon of American history" folks would absolutely stand in front of a hunter if they thought it might. Shoot, they are tying the hands of BLM every which way they can to prevent roundups even for using birth control on the mares and reducing the birth rate (herds double about every 5 years). Secondly, horses as large game animals are just not a challenge....I can walk up to within 200 feet of the herd here and count them, look over the herd with binoculars etc. One of the bachelor stallions has been in the field of some friends just a couple miles up the road....breaks through the electric fencing (might be shorted out on weeds) and tries to round up their mares (who are penned up in generous sized pens)....have gone up there several times to help herd him out....he's getting the hang of it and heads to the hole he created with just a little walking up with boss mare attitude on my part.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=JGHIRETIRE;5264375]I think it's more the way the roundups are done that they gripe about - too many animals die doing it.
Not to mention what happens to them after they are rounded up. Don't really understand why they round up more when they don't know what to do with what they already have.


They round them up because there is no feed out on the range and they will die of starvation during the winter if the weather is bad at all. The Wild Horse Management Areas were set up with recommended numbers of horses that each area could sustain....in some cases there are 100 or more extra horses in those areas and they simply don't have feed. With multiple years of drought some areas also don't have readily accessible water. BLM is caught between doing what the law requires of them and the actions of those who want no interference with the herds at all.

BLM just released a report on the more recent roundups. There were 4 independent observers selected by the folks that are against the roundups. The report essentially says that much of the media reporting and the complaints about how the animals are handled are BS, that BLM did a good job including the use of the helicopters (you cannot get into some of this country on 4 wheelers for instance or even on a mounted horse)....described as "working the horses much like a good sheep dog would work a flock of sheep."

I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say "not to mention what happens to them after they are rounded up". They are vaccinated, wormed, branded, fed better feed than they've probably ever had, cared for if they become ill and yes, a few die....usually old or very young that don't handle the capture and the stress of feed changes well. The options are to allow these same ones and more to die out on the desert of starvation, dehydration, illness or injuries, sometimes being eaten alive by coyotes and mountain lions not content with waiting for them to die or bring them in and try to care for them and reduce the numbers that will die if left out there.

Since there are roughly 27,000 mustangs that are either in holding facilities now or will be when removed from the range it seems simple to me......find 27,000 mustang lovers to adopt one each. Surely in a country of over 300 million people this could be done. What? Oh...."love mustangs but live in a 400 square foot apartment and don't have any horse experience but think they should be allowed to run free". Why is it that the people who actually live with the horses have so little imput in the overall process of figuring out what to do with them. Before the Wild Horse and Burrow Protection Act went into effect local ranchers managed the herds in their areas. They culled out poor quality animals and released good quality stallions to breed the mares. They rounded up the resulting foals every couple of years, gathered the colts and gelded them and made ranch horses out of them. They also sometimes fed them in a bad winter and sometimes, yes, they thinned the herds by various means. The herds didn't overrun the range and were healthy with their numbers pretty stable.

[Petstorejunkie]

Reasonable way to reduce the wild population would be vasectomies on stallions of lesser quality...leave 'em with the hormones so they will attempt or even manage to obtain a herd...none of the mares would get pregnant as long as the sterile stallion was the herd stud. Leave best quality stallions to breed...but they would have to obtain a herd to do so so their social structure would remain stable.

Perhaps I'm feeling revolutionary at the moment but...
Please tell me you've shared this with people in positions of power on this subject!

I'd love it if there was a band of secret vasectomy "vampires" that came in the night and snipped the strings of all the yak blooded ewe necked "studs" living with not so smart owners.

[Fillabeana]

none of the mares would get pregnant as long as the sterile stallion was the herd stud.

I believe that they've already tried vasectomizing the lead stallion. If there are (entire) bachelor stallions around, the mares get bred at the same rate anyway. The herd stallion can't guard all of the mares if several come into heat at once.

But rounding up, and vasectomizing all of the males- there would be no foals at all.

I think sterilizing the mares (a glass ball/marble in the uterus does NOT work, I know the folks who had the wild mares who did the study) would be feasible. You could sterilize most of the mares, and lower the reproductive rate.

The French and Japanese like to eat horsemeat. I don't get why the BLM can't SELL the extra horses as food for foreigners to pay for the management of the wild herds. (Probably forbidden in the Wild Horses Act from the mid 70's.) Crazy.

[coloredcowhorse]

I believe that they've already tried vasectomizing the lead stallion. If there are (entire) bachelor stallions around, the mares get bred at the same rate anyway. The herd stallion can't guard all of the mares if several come into heat at once.

But rounding up, and vasectomizing all of the males- there would be no foals at all.

I think sterilizing the mares (a glass ball/marble in the uterus does NOT work, I know the folks who had the wild mares who did the study) would be feasible. You could sterilize most of the mares, and lower the reproductive rate.

The French and Japanese like to eat horsemeat. I don't get why the BLM can't SELL the extra horses as food for foreigners to pay for the management of the wild herds. (Probably forbidden in the Wild Horses Act from the mid 70's.) Crazy.

Uh.....there isn't one lead stallion....there are an estimated 27,000 mustangs, the majority of them in NV but scattered around other states as well.

My suggestion was to select a few better quality stallions in the bachelor herds and leave them intact. IF they succeed in obtaining a herd the mares that they breed would have better quality babies. IF sterilized stallions managed to get herds those herds would have few, if any, foals (the herds here are usually not more than 10-12 mares and a stallion, many times fewer). Yes, a stallion from a bachelor herd could possibly steal a mare and breed her but if he's sterile it won't matter. In any case the birth rate would be very much reduced.

Sterilizing mares is way more expensive and invasive as a surgery and BLM does have to manage a budget. Vasectomy could be done standing (heavily tranqed) or laid down. Either way would be quicker and less costly and more effective. If you sterilize one mare you stop one foal from being born a year. If you sterilize a stallion that manages to get a herd gathered you stop all foals (or most if a fertile bachelor stud manages to breed one or two) from being born for years to come....as long as that stallion manages that herd.

Yes, the wild horse and burrow protection act specifically outlaws the use of these animals for sale for meat. Interestingly, the state of NV can round up strays (referred to on the law books as "estray" horses) if they are on open range and NOT on a wild horse management area (horses are notoriously poor map readers and the areas are not fenced or signed...they don't read signs either) and CAN sell them to the highest bidder at auction (there are some steps they have to go through to do so but it isn't hard if they want to).

Yes, the Japanese and some European countries do eat horse meat (so did we until about the early 70's....and it is what the armed forces ate through both world wars) BUT there are now new laws in effect for shipping and slaughter...the European Union has restrictions requiring clearance times for banned medications that are as high as 180 days so the horses will have to be dry lotted for that time in Canada (Mexico has no such rules yet as most horse meat there is used locally...and their method of slaughter is rather crude)....the slaughter plants in some areas are reportedly unable to take more horses at this point due to the waiting periods....resulting in more horses being backlogged here.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=JGHIRETIRE;5264375]I think it's more the way the roundups are done that they gripe about - too many animals die doing it.
Not to mention what happens to them after they are rounded up. Don't really understand why they round up more when they don't know what to do with what they already have.



Release Date: 12/03/10

Contacts:
Tom Gorey
, 202-912-7420


BLM Releases Report by Independent Observers on Handling of Animals at Three Wild Horse Gathers

The Bureau of Land Management today released a report prepared by four independent, credentialed equine professionals concerning the care and handling of wild horses and burros at three major gathers or round-ups held over the summer. The full report, accessible at this link, made several observations and findings, including the observation that, in general, "horses did not exhibit undue stress or show signs of extreme sweating or duress due to the helicopter portion of the gather, maintaining a trot or canter gait only as they entered the wings of the trap. Rather[,] horses showed more anxiety once they were closed in the pens in close quarters; however, given time to settle, most of the horses engaged in normal behavior...." The report also favorably noted the helicopter's "precision" in gathering horses and burros, comparing it to "a dog working sheep."

The four professionals who prepared the report, each of whom is an academia-based equine veterinarian or equine specialist, are Camie Heleski, Ph.D., from Michigan State University; Betsy Greene, Ph.D., from the University of Vermont; Sarah Ralston, VMD, Ph.D., from Rutgers University; and Carolyn Stull, Ph.D., from the University of California at Davis. These four observers were selected by the Washington, D.C.-based American Horse Protection Association, whose mission is to protect and preserve wild horses and burros on U.S. public rangelands.

Other findings by the equine professionals, who observed gathers at the Owyhee Herd Management Area (Nevada), Stinking Waters Herd Management Area (Oregon), and Twin Peaks Herd Management Area (California), include:

contractor and BLM personnel appeared to be gentle and knowledgeable, using acceptable methods for moving horses forward at the trap sites and the temporary holding facilities;
chutes and pens were set up in a manner that reflected recommended handling practices for reducing animal stress in traps;
horses were sorted appropriately at temporary holding facilities;
horses were assessed by Federal veterinarians (from the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, or APHIS) to be capable of travel before transport to BLM holding facilities;
APHIS veterinarians were open and candid regarding protocols for treating injured or ill horses. In the case of euthanasia or injuries, there was no attempt to minimize or hide any information or details related to the injuries or euthanasia procedures; and
when faced with unexpected and extraordinary circumstances (such as water toxemia at the Owyhee gather), BLM, APHIS, and contractor personnel demonstrated the ability to review, assess, and adapt procedures to ensure the care and well being of the animals to the best of their ability.
The independent observers also made a number of recommendations to the BLM, which can be found in the full report posted on the BLM's Website. The Bureau will review and respond to each recommendation. The BLM will use the observations and findings of this report as it considers development of an independent observer program as part of the agency's ongoing effort to put the Wild Horse and Burro Program on a sustainable track.

Link to Independent Designated Observer Pilot Program Final Report.

[coloredcowhorse]

The proponents of horse slaughter have a summit coming up and the Master of Ceremonies, Trent Loos A bit more on this man who is obviously a pillar of society:

Master of Ceremonies Loos is an agricultural talk show host who first gained fame for his management of a 50,000 pig factory farm on the land of the Rosebud Sioux. The Rosebud contended that the farm and its vast lagoons of pig manure had been foisted on them by politicians and successfully sued to evict Loos and his porcine pals in 2002.

Shortly after starting an organization called "Truth Keepers" to
challenge "animal rights groups", Loos was charged with and
subsequently convicted of cattle fraud (selling cattle he didn't own). Robert F. Kennedy Jr., in his book Crimes Against Nature, accused Trent Loos of stalking him while he was on a book tour, going so far as to follow him into a men's room. When asked about the stalking charge during his radio program, Loos readily admitted it, saying he had to keep Kennedy honest.

When a slaughter ban was being considered in Illinois, Loos promised to bring a truck load of "unwanted horses" to the capitol steps. In the event, he showed up with a large supply of toy stick horses which he passed out to visiting school children. The bill passed despite this demonstration, eventually closing the last slaughter plant in the US.

Or another view........maybe a different person? This is from the Summit of the Horse newsletter I received today......

"Losey brings to the Summit some impressive credentials...

Franklin W. Losey is an attorney licensed to practice law in the States of Ohio and Kentucky and also licensed to appear before the U.S. Supreme Court who has submitted written legal briefs that have been considered by the U.S. Supreme Court. He has served as a United States Air Force Judge Advocate; was assigned to the Pentagon as the Director of Civil Law, where he supervised over 100 military and civilian attorneys; provided legal guidance to the Air Force Chief of Staff and other General Officers assigned to the Pentagon. Since 1990 Mr. Losey has interfaced with Presidents of multi-billion dollar corporations, Members of Congress and their key staff, and senior members of the Executive Branch of our Government. During this period he successfully orchestrated actual statutory changes to Title 10 (Armed Forces), Title 18 (Crimes and Criminal Procedure - Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act), Title 26 (Internal Revenue Code), and Title 41 (Public Contracts) of the U.S. Code. He was also successful in effecting changes to regulations promulgated by the Department of Defense, U.S. Coast Guard, Department of Agriculture, OSHA, EPA and the International Maritime Organization and has spoken on behalf of the U.S. Government at an Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). Mr. Losey's passion for representing responsible dog breeders is based on his commitment to repay Chaucer, his beloved Yorkie, who he treasured for over 18 years who came from a breeder in Missouri."