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Let's hear it: Non-subjective Competition

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  • Let's hear it: Non-subjective Competition

    After reading about, and also observing, the subjectivity of judging in many competitions, I am leaning toward participating only in those competitions in which the outcomes are determined by facts.

    I'm mainly an English rider, but also have dabbled in Western games and am really just trying to have fun with my horses. I like to compete, and want to do it in contests where the outcomes are as black and white as possible.

    So let's hear it! What are the competitions that are determined by clocks or faults, and not by a judge's opinion?

    Here are some that come to mind:
    Jumping
    Timed Western events, such as barrel racing (et all)
    Hunter paces
    Cross-country
    Horse ball?
    Others?
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  • #2
    Team penning
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

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    • #3
      Endurance
      Competitive trail ... not sure might be judged there

      P.
      A Wandering Albertan - NEW Africa travel blog!

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      • #4
        Lol, well, my favorite's horse racing. First one over the line wins.
        Polo.
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        • #5
          Polo
          Polo cross
          Endurance
          ... _. ._ .._. .._

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          • #6
            mounted cowboy shooting
            And if you just want to have fun with horses in a non competitive way, try fox hunting.
            Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.

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            • #7
              You know, you can have fun with your horse in the discipline you most love, even if you NEVER win a ribbon.

              My favorite, after team penning (I never have gotten in the reining pen yet; soon, maybe), and maybe field hunting, will always be green hunters, like baby green at the local level, 2'6". I used to train/retrain horses to sell as H/J prospects.

              I LOVE feeling when a young/inexperienced horse GETS it on a course. We get a great distance, or a flying change easily, or just a nice, flowing round. I have never given my rat's @$& about a ribbon, and the only time in a local show I was ever a Reserve Ch. was when a friend of the SO was judging, so I discount that one.

              So to me, going in the hunter ring is FUN, even without a ribbon. It's about the partnership with the horse.
              Last edited by Melelio; Sep. 11, 2010, 03:47 PM. Reason: "fun" not "fu"
              "As a rule we disbelieve all the facts and theories for which we have no use."- William James
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

              Proud member of the Wheat Loss Clique.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Melelio View Post
                You know, you can have fun with your horse in the discipline you most love, even if you NEVER win a ribbon.

                My favorite, after team penning (I never have gotten in the reining pen yet; soon, maybe), and maybe field hunting, will always be green hunters, like baby green at the local level, 2'6". I used to train/retrain horses to sell as H/J prospects.

                I LOVE feeling when a young/inexperienced horse GETS it on a course. We get a great distance, or a flying change easily, or just a nice, flowing round. I have never given my rat's @$& about a ribbon, and the only time in a local show I was ever a Reserve Ch. was when a friend of the SO was judging, so I discount that one.

                So to me, going in the hunter ring is FUN, even without a ribbon. It's about the partnership with the horse.
                Yes!!!

                I love to show in lots of things, some I am excellent at and some I am not so good at. I love experimenting with lots of disciplines. But what I really, really love is not only the partnership that I have with my horse but also with my FRIENDS!!! I love seeing them win. I love hooting and hollering when THEY win and I am still in the line up. Life and horses is way too much fun to let losing get me down! I have learned, go to HAVE FUN and forget about the win or lose as much as you can. Instead, focus on your own and your horse's performance and either be happy with it (win or lose) or start stratagizing how you can improve it.

                For unbiased judging, I think driven dressage, CDEs and even ridden dressage are fun because you get a score sheet. You can compete against your last show, rather than your friends.

                Also, five of us have been meeting weekly this last month+ and putting together a quadrille with five black Percherons. I can not even begin to describe how much FUN we are having in cooperating, rather than competing. It is a blast! We are going to perform the routine at the state fair -draft horse show and I am as excited about that as I am the whole show! There are lots of ways to get out there without putting a win-lose spin on it.

                I think one thing is when you have been in the ring for years, you just don't take it as seriously. If you put yourself out there again and again, sooner or later, you realize that winning isn't that important. But getting stuck in the "its not fair!!!" mindset is even worse. A judge is one person's opinion on a single day.
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                • #9
                  Have fun!!!

                  .
                  Luistano Stallion standing for 2013: Wolverine UVF
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IZPHDzgX3s

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                  • #10
                    Team sorting! Easier on horses and cattle than team penning, but so much fun.

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                    • #11
                      Pulling.

                      Not that I think you're all that likely to take it up on a whim, but it hasn't been listed yet
                      "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn’t merely train him to be semi-human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming part dog."
                      -Edward Hoagland

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Polydor View Post
                        Endurance
                        Competitive trail ... not sure might be judged there

                        P.
                        Competitive trail is judged, but from talking to some friends of mine who do it it sounds fairly objective...like you get no points if you don't do the obstacle, 1 if you do it passably well, and 2 if you do it really well, something like that. So you're judged, but not judged like in the show ring. Unless I really misunderstood them, which is possible.

                        Endurance is fun, and 25 miles (limited distance technically) is really pretty easy if you and your horse are reasonably fit. Endurance people are a blast, too.
                        exploring the relationship between horse and human

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                        • #13
                          Tent Pegging; http://www.britishtentpegging.com/
                          ... _. ._ .._. .._

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                          • #14
                            FYI

                            I don't think there is such thing as an "non-subjective" horse sport. Even in the ones mentioned, there is still a level of human judgement-call.

                            For ex: Sports that use a score card/numerical system are just as biased as anything else. I grade HS speeches with a "scorecard", and, no matter how detailed I make it, I can still give the grade I want if I want to (I do grade as objectively as I can, but afterwards I have manipulated the numbers out of my own curiosity--NOT to change the kids' grades!) I have scored the students as the card directs, but there is still enough swing in the point ranges, 1-5, that there is a lot of manipulation.) The problem is that what looks like a 7 movement to one person could be a 5 for another. There's your subjectivity.

                            Other ex: Sports that use the "first nose across the line" or fastest time wins system still are not fully unbiased. The various officials can often call penalities/rule infractions that alter the outcome. What about horseraces in which a judgement of "interference" re-places the winners?
                            "And now . . .off to violin-land, where all is sweetness and delicacy and harmony and there are no red-headed clients to vex us with their conundrums."

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                            • #15
                              In that case, we may as well all turn out the lights, and leave.
                              ... _. ._ .._. .._

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
                                In that case, we may as well all turn out the lights, and leave.
                                I spent my childhood watching horse shows, and I still enjoy a good horse show as a spectator. Truth of the matter, 9 times out of 10, my unofficial score in my head will be almost exactly as the judge's score. Everyone talks about biased judging but try it for yourself. It is really that biased or is it competitors whining about their own placings?

                                I think most judges in this country as exceptionally good and honest and fair.

                                Honestly, when was the last time you went to a horse show and watched (without showing) the judging? Or watched it on TV? Did you really think it was that biased? Most people who judge take it very seriously.

                                There are lots of good judging programs and certification programs (that require hands on testing) in the USA. Most judges follow guidelines, are trained and are tested and care about being good judges.
                                Luistano Stallion standing for 2013: Wolverine UVF
                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IZPHDzgX3s

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                                • #17
                                  I think the real question for the OP is:

                                  What outcome are you most looking for in competing with your horse?


                                  Does a ribbon in a sport tell you you're doing something right, or does your experience in the sport give you pleasure?

                                  Just depends on what it is you think you want from a competition.
                                  "As a rule we disbelieve all the facts and theories for which we have no use."- William James
                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                  Proud member of the Wheat Loss Clique.

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                                  • #18
                                    OP...i am of the same opinion, and if i am paying to compete, i only compete in jumpers and gymkhana (timed) games.
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                                    • #19
                                      Nobody has mentioned jousting yet. Does that count?
                                      Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.

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                                      • #20
                                        Showing should not be entirely about the ribbons, but if they were totally irrelevant I think most people would just stick to clinics and social rides. I know I personally get a lot more knowledge and social interaction from those and they're cheaper to boot.

                                        The jousting suggestion (even if it was a joke ) actually made me think of another suggestion...OP, if you're a dork like me you might want to look into the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism). Many areas have equestrian groups that have really fun games. You can get started without much financial outlay (it's been years since I've been involved but a year's membership which is required for insurance reasons is like $15 or $20 IIRC, and any sort of costuming or whatever will come later and your local group will be happy to help). There are also more serious jousting groups like the IJA (SCA jousting is a bit of a joke IMO, but the non-jousting games are a blast), but they have fewer local groups and require much more of a financial obligation up front.

                                        The games are things like "Saracen Heads" which is like pole bending except you have to swing a sword and knock a "head" off of every post, "Reeds" which is similar but you run a straight line and have targets on both sides IIRC, "Rings" which is preparation for jousting where you have to pick up rings hung from standards on your lance with additional points being given for smaller targets, "Pig-sticking" where you ride out with a big spear and spear a "pig" (usually styrofoam with duct tape around it) and whirl it up over your head as you pass, and this super fun game with a Middle Eastern name that I can't remember where you have a lightweight spear and you have to lean over at a gallop and thread your spear through rings at a gallop, catching it on the other side and preparing for the next one. There is also jousting and mounted combat but that's a whole 'nother discussion. You can PM me if you want even more detail.

                                        edited to provide more of an idea of what I'm talking about
                                        Last edited by CosMonster; Sep. 13, 2010, 08:27 PM. Reason: clarity
                                        exploring the relationship between horse and human

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