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mule peeps, tell me there's hope

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  • mule peeps, tell me there's hope

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=270157

    Dear God, I am creating a spinoff of my own thread. Long story short, the mules referred to in the above thread have arrived at my neighbors' place. These kids (well, they are probably at least 30 years younger than me) are total novices. They've each been on a horse's back once or twice.

    Seller of mules was giving a slick line of bulls**t when he delivered these creatures, to the effect that we (my riding buddy and I , who had ridden up to visit and just happened to catch the arrival) that we'd have to keep our horses away because mules automatically kick horses (hmm, how'd that go over with the mules' dams, I wonder) and that I couldnt get in the roundpen they were temporarily parked in (with halters left on, grrr) while the new fence was getting finishing touches) with them because "mules are naturally suspicious and with a crowd of unfamiliar people around it just wouldnt be a good idea to get close to them until they've been here a few days" which I intrepreted to mean either, "not until my a$$ is on the road and outta here" or "wait until the ace wears off."

    Then I saw the bridles complete with bits that had been left. Yup, 7 inch shanks, double twisted wire "snaffles". Dear god in heaven. One mule is only 4 and cannot be more than green broke.

    Can this situation be salvaged, or at least can I prevent this young, sweet couple from getting killed? And yes, I plan to take more suitable bits to them as soon as I can, and explain why torture implements are a less than ideal way of enlisting equine cooperation....

  • #2
    OMG...well, I can see the train wreck a comin' and it may not be pretty.

    Mules don't automatically kick horses...I think most of them think they are horses (as noted, mom was a horse).

    Now mules do play differently than horses...they like to grab each others neck and drag the other mule around. Molly's use their hind ends the way mares do, Jack geldings use their front ends and mouths like horse geldings.

    Mules will get to know "their" people and won't be as trusting or cooperative as horses are...kinda' German Shep vs. Golden Retriever. Not psycho, just more discerning of their friends.

    Mules like food, they love being bribed. I suggest using food, especially some nice oats. Simple and they like em'. Fill a bag with oats, put it in your pocket and stand in the round pen and let their curiosity bring them to you. No pushing, just getting them to trust and know you.

    Keep the bits as a souvenir of scary ways of dealing with mules. Right now, lots of ground work and trust building is the most important.

    Have them get the Merideth Hodges tapes on training mules and start from the beginning. It's not too late.
    "Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc"

    Comment


    • #3
      They will get hurt and they will sell them at a loss.

      mules are NOT horses. they don't think like horses. You don't need to get hurt going in there and treating them like horses.

      Stupid hurts. Don't be stupid.

      Comment


      • #4
        I do find all the warnings more concerning.
        Rally it's like a 'wait till I am gone and can wash my hands of it'
        I would be concerned, too, if they didn't got sold on a pair of - if not rank - untrained mules...
        I don't think that is a good starting premis...

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by katarine View Post
          They will get hurt and they will sell them at a loss.

          mules are NOT horses. they don't think like horses. You don't need to get hurt going in there and treating them like horses.

          Stupid hurts. Don't be stupid.
          Specifics on how TO treat them would be helpful. I dont want to get hurt and I dont think I'm a competent mule trainer, but I do want to find out if they have good manners or bad or issues that ARENT mule specific. So I need to know mule baseline, so I can figure out what can be worked around or put up with as opposed to what is going to get someone killed and cant be put up with.

          When I was having my struggles with Sadie she kicked, reared, balked, bolted and so on. Food and kind treatment and a dab of clicker training and a LOT of riding straightened her out. I would not be willing to take on these mules if they are rank, I used up all my good luck not getting killed by Sadie.

          I have kicked two horses off my place for being jerks after getting them as good as I could and the one I had worked with longest was a better horse when she left than when she arrived. But she was never going to be a horse that wouldnt take advantage of a greenie.

          I at least intend to ride these guys a little in their round pen to see if they have whoa and go installed before I advise the owners to cut their losses.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            And thanks, Trakehner. I love bribing equines. I will encourage the young couple to get some goodies and show them how not to get mugged; I know how to do that. I had already planned to tell them to be sure to handle these mules often. I can show them some basic groundwork stuff to do, too. I'm taking them some spare helmets, too. Question for everyone, is a mule going to cooperate with or fight a rope halter. Should I stick with the nylon halters they have or use (kindly) something with a little bite to it.

            They are supposedly gaited, so I wont try to work them in small circles. Fortunately the roundpen is huge. I am not a big fan of roundpenning to a standstill and wont try it, but am wondering if some lunging or work on really long lines, maybe ground driving, would be helpful. (The older mule may have been broken to harness as well as to ride. )

            The husband talks wistfully of going on trail rides with me and my riding buddy someday. He seems to want to enjoy these animals but I have the impression it really wasnt his idea and he's been going along with it. The wife is perhaps in this to please her dad, who I think actually made the purchase, but seems to have no intention of actually riding himself. There is a family dynamic here that further complicates what's going on.

            I will get to wear my therapist hat as well as my wrangler hat. Oh joy.

            Comment


            • #7
              Well get the Meredith Hodges videos and do not cut out the pieces you think are too abrupt or tough. There's a reason she rides them in draw reins and regular reins, and there's a reason she's not shy of snubbing them short to get something done.
              It's not about if they are rank. They think differently and when they say no they need to run into a wall of no from your end.

              Case in point: 4 YO molly kindly raised and well treated. When she doesn't want to lead, load, or turn in the direction you choose, she locks her neck and LEAVES. Lately she will not load and stay loaded on trailer. She gets on and flies off. Owner was afraid to tie her for fear she'd hurt herself. Here is what Meredith suggested. Emphasis mine to point out where this is mule training, not horse training.

              One needs to think in terms of setting limits with mules like you would a child. They can be gently coerced, but when they refuse, they need to hit a wall in order to learn to do as you request. You should tie the mule inside the trailer. They have been known to turn around and pace in the trailer, crawl under dividers, kick open rear doors while the trailer is moving, try to jump out side windows, etc.! They are VERY CREATIVE!

              You never want her to get the idea she can take slack back and not go directly forwad into the trailer. In the beginning, while loading, she can take steps forward, but if she won't follow you in and takes a step back then it is time to use the lungeline method and take up the slack and snub her with each step forward, so she is not allowed to take the slack away from you. This is why the natural horsemanship method of trailer loading (and alot of other things!) does not always work with mules. However, when you do set limits to their behavior, they hit the wall you have created and then just give up the nonsense. They actually appreciate knowing what those limits are and will rarely give you any further problems with what they have learned.

              Mules are very intelligent creatures and will not do anything that will hurt themselves. If they do get hurt, you can bet a human had something to do with it. The converse is that if they put one over on you, then the game is on! So basically, use the information I gave you about training, begin there and take the steps I outlined for you and you shouldn't have any problems along the way that can't be solved easily. If you mix my methods with horse training techniques that are out there...well, you know what she has already done! it would be more of the same. Don't worry about hurting her. If you follow my program, you won't hurt her! I promise!


              So again, this is a very well treated, kindly raised young mule who does perfect showmanship patterns, all the NH ground school stuff, she ponies (when she wants to), she ground drives, etc...she's nowhere near rank- but she is spoiled by horse training applied to a mule. Now the hard part will be stepping up and snubbing her to the trailer - they just aren't horses.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by katarine View Post
                ...

                [I]One needs to think in terms of setting limits with mules like you would a child. They can be gently coerced, but when they refuse, they need to hit a wall in order to learn to do as you request.
                ...
                However, when you do set limits to their behavior,
                they hit the wall you have created and then just give up the nonsense. They actually appreciate knowing what those limits are and will rarely give you any further problems with what they have learned.

                ...
                DH has wanted a mule forever and finally got one. We are finding the above to be so true! My DH has had horses for 40 years and is a good hand with them. He sent Gambler to his friend/farrier who has mules for some training for both the mule and himself!
                "And I will be an embarrassment to all
                Who have not found the peace in being free
                to have a horse as a best friend."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jeano View Post
                  Can this situation be salvaged, or at least can I prevent this young, sweet couple from getting killed? And yes, I plan to take more suitable bits to them as soon as I can, and explain why torture implements are a less than ideal way of enlisting equine cooperation....

                  mules are union men...they have a meeting for EVERYTHING that they do between the donkey half of their brain and the horse half...for everything from walking thru a door to deciding to still for fly spray (or not)

                  don't look at them thru a horse tinted glasses...or you 'll be just as wrong as the folks who sold them to your friends...while the gear you see them in will be "different" it's almost like the gear for a camel is different....do you ride a camel in a big soft snaffle ? no ? and there is a reason why...

                  often times complete novices do better with mules as they don't annoy them as much as a "trainer"....the local guy who does the best with the mules says that it takes about 90 days to get their head and heart in the right place and two full years to make them safe and reliable....bear that in mind while you fiddle with them

                  finally a "gaited" mule will often not hit one lick unless he's saddled

                  Tamara in TN
                  Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                  I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    "When I was having my struggles with Sadie she kicked, reared, balked, bolted and so on."

                    Phew...I was lucky with my mule Jackson. He was 3 when I got him (not smart, best to get mules 6-7...especially for the boys...for maturity to kick in). He sometimes said, "Bye Ya'll" and was a pain getting on the boy for a while...after 1-2 years, he seemed to have an epiphany and decided to be a good partner.

                    Mules are different than horses, not harder or more difficult, just different. They aren't more dangerous than horses either. They don't kick more often than horses, just are better at it if they choose to.

                    Jackson's also a gaited mule and gaits under saddle, never seen him to it at leisure in the field.

                    Watch the Meridith Hodges tapes and treat them like mules, not horses.
                    "Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc"

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      I will fervently suggest the Meredith Hodges videos. I am not a softie when equines get foolish; have no trouble getting tough, in fact I had a bad loader once who I snubbed as mentioned above until she gave up and decided to be a good citizen. And she was a horse, not a mule. She didnt get hurt and neither did I.

                      What I DONT have now is two good hands (bad arthritis) and any experienced help close by.

                      Tamara, I dont know what bit works best for a camel. I am having trouble believing that a double twisted wire snaffle is the best choice for a mule just because its a mule. I dont have good enough hands to trust not hurting an animal's mouth with that contraption. Are you saying one cannot ride a mule with anything less? Any suggestions for something BETWEEN the twisted wire and a "big soft" snaffle?

                      As regards the union man analogy, that one spoke to me, since that's what my horse Sadie's decision making process seemed like when she was being delinquent. Everything had to be debated, and we fought. A lot. And there were days when I had to out-stubborn her and it took a lot out of both of us. Then that epiphany occurred, and she's been steadily better as the years go by.

                      The problem is I dont have a barometer to help me determine if a mule is being muleish or if the mule is just poorly trained or has been getting away with murder. I hear and understand they are not like horses, I knew that when my friends told me they were getting mules, and told them as much. But that's more book knowledge than experiential.

                      I (and the proud owners) could probably care less about the gaiting for the forseeable future. If they will trot in the roundpen, fine. Trotting under saddle wont freak me out either. I'll worry about gaits after I'm convinced they arent outlaws. Thanks, all, you've given me plenty to chew on.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Snaffles are fine, I use a curb on Jackson. No chains, twisted anything etc...Myler makes a nice mule bit or two.

                        Mules tend to be rather ignoring of their mouths, delicate on their noses. Use a chain lead under his chin, not over his nose....and patience...Lots of patience.
                        "Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Trakehner View Post
                          Snaffles are fine, I use a curb on Jackson. No chains, twisted anything etc...Myler makes a nice mule bit or two.

                          Mules tend to be rather ignoring of their mouths, delicate on their noses. Use a chain lead under his chin, not over his nose....and patience...Lots of patience.
                          I second the Myler mule bits. My DH called Myler and after discussing where Gambler is in his training (he's had a lot more experience as a pack mule than a riding one) the rep suggested the appropriate bit. Gambler appears to be doing well in what they suggested.
                          And our mule owning friends suggested the chain under the halter, too.
                          "And I will be an embarrassment to all
                          Who have not found the peace in being free
                          to have a horse as a best friend."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jeano View Post
                            Tamara, I dont know what bit works best for a camel. I am having trouble believing that a double twisted wire snaffle is the best choice for a mule just because its a mule. I dont have good enough hands to trust not hurting an animal's mouth with that contraption. Are you saying one cannot ride a mule with anything less? Any suggestions for something BETWEEN the twisted wire and a "big soft" snaffle?

                            .
                            the reference was to horses being horses and as different from mules as camels are to horses

                            mules inherit from their sires the ability to plow thru a lot of pain...to dull themselves to it if they think that they are escaping a greater pain/danger this is one of the reason that "traditional" mule bits are more harsh looking than some others...and in a horses mouth some of them would be I guess...others look really awful, but their actions in the mouth are not as ghastly as the bit would appear....again you can't look at them thru a horses eyes

                            they are not "flight" animals like their dams side...they wait and think about what they think is best for them at that time round penning sometimes takes on only a surface meaning for them....so you might think that they "got it" when in reality they have not....people cannot ascribe the reaction speeds of horses to mules either but many try to....

                            Tamara in TN
                            Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                            I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Jerry Tindell has some great DVDs about round penning and handling mules:

                              http://jerrytindell.com/videos.htm

                              I can't say enough good things about him!

                              I think his DVDs have more educational content than those of Meredith Hodges.
                              Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
                              http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
                              http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Another mule trainer you might check into is Brad Cameron: www.muletrainer.com

                                Any chance your friends would have an opportunity to attend one of his clinics?

                                He is an excellent teacher and a very nice guy, and his own mules are a great advertisement for his abilities.

                                I rode in one of his clinics a few years ago and learned a TON. Several green riders with relatively green mules were in my group, and they all made a lot of progress.

                                Watching him and one of his mules pony a good-sized, unbroken 2yo mule from the barn, out through the pasture, and over to the arena was worth the price of the clinic. I still don't know how they loaded that mule to get him to the clinic, but he went from not halter broken to wearing a saddled and working nicely in the round pen and in hand over the course of 3 days, with very little fuss.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by jeano View Post
                                  Are you saying one cannot ride a mule with anything less? Any suggestions for something BETWEEN the twisted wire and a "big soft" snaffle?
                                  I ride my little 6 year old pony mule in a regular French-link loose-ring snaffle, when I actually bother to put a bit in his mouth. The rest of the time I ride him in a halter and lead rope.

                                  I don't know whether it's his pony side, or just how most mules are, but he is much more dog-like than horse-like. He is affectionate and friendly and willing to do almost anything I ask. (Even though he DOES NOT see the point of walking through the puddle when he could just walk AROUND it.) He very rarely balks at anything, but I make sure to have a bit of grain in my pocket when he does. Very highly food-motivated. I adore him, my geldings adore him, and I look forward to having him for many more years.

                                  That being said, I absolutely HATED him for the first month or two that I had him. He was pushy and rude and acted like the barely-halter-broke creature that he was. It was only after about a month and a half of consistent "No you may NOT step on me!" training that he decided that he liked me. And the second he decided he liked me he became my best friend in the entire world. He still tests anyone else who handles him, but is always a perfect angel for me. He's a cute little thing.

                                  Like Trak said, they do not kick MORE than horses, they just AIM better and make it count.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    What GoForAGallop said. They don't necessarily want to work with you at first, but once you develop the relationship they really get solid.

                                    And one more thought, attributed to Ray Hunt: "you MUST train a mule like you SHOULD train a horse." They learn fast, so be as clear and consistent as you can with your training. If something works once and it is the wrong thing, they will keep trying it forever. Also, they don't like to drill, so once they get something right, move on.

                                    My mule goes in a snaffle too, either a French link or a western sweet-iron bit. Like everything else with a mule, though you just have to develop an understanding over time. When he came, we pretty much stopped on the trail by running into the horse in front of us, but with patience and consistent schooling he has developed a very nice mouth. Granted, he is half-TB and a more horse-like mule with length to his neck and a fairly sloping shoulder; it could be a different story with a smaller, chunkier-type mule.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by ejm View Post
                                      Also, they don't like to drill, so once they get something right, move on.
                                      Good lord is this true! Surely I'm not the only one with a mule who just does. not. see. the. POINT of lunging?? He will walk one circle, trot one circle, canter one circle, in each direction. Anything after that I have to prod/beg/beat/push him into! He will stop and stand there, and say "Okay, I did it. Now what?"

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Thanks, guys. I'm going to go see the kids and the mules in a couple days and see how things are going now that they've been on their own for a week. I'll emphasize the benefits of working with them and gaining trust etc. It had been my impression, and one I shared with them, that it took a great horseman to make a good muleskinner.

                                        I attended a muleskinner rodeo in Oregon once--barrel racing, hunter jumper, you name it, and they were all lovely animals and none seemed to require the wretched wire bits. I see gaited horse people all the time who will swear up and down that you have to have a long shanked curb on a gaited horse "or they wont gait" and shoes and pads and what all "or they wont gait" and I just nod my head and shuffle off on my french link snaffled barefoot horse. So I appreciate that a lot of culture aint necessarily based on what works best for every individual.

                                        I would love to just trust that the sellers of these creatures werent horse traders pure and simple but I doubt it. Seen too many horse traders and been one myself.

                                        Conformation wise, my new neighbors' mules are very horsey--long necks, long legs, good withers, sloping shoulders. With TWH dams (supposedly). They look quite a bit like the way I'd imagine mules with walking horse in them so perhaps I CAN trust the sellers, after all. Now to see if they are actually trained to do anything and safe.

                                        Worst (and iirc only) double barrel kick I ever was on the receiving end of was courtesy of my 100% horse.

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