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Unethical Practices of Trainers

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  • Unethical Practices of Trainers

    This is my first post on this board. You guys seem to be in the know about all various area of horses. I have been involved with a trainer/friend for a few years now. Said trainer does buying/selling/training. Is it just me, or is it normal for trainers to advertise a horse and not be truthful about it's true breed, etc.? I've been told that their favorite horse to obtain is a TB that has not been tattooed, this way it can be advertised as a warmblood cross? When in fact they know for sure the breeding of said animal, it was just never registered and/or raced? I just find this very very hard to swallow and maybe I am just too dang honest. I do know many horses, who are not in fact registered, there is no way of really knowing, but when you know for a fact the horses breeding, etc., and are just adding WB cross in order to make a sale, is this normal behavior?

    Maybe no one else has a problem with this, I just find it very wrong and it is what makes it very very hard for buyers to go out and purchase horses from trainers.

  • #2
    Originally posted by WonderCloser View Post
    This is my first post on this board. You guys seem to be in the know about all various area of horses. I have been involved with a trainer/friend for a few years now. Said trainer does buying/selling/training. Is it just me, or is it normal for trainers to advertise a horse and not be truthful about it's true breed, etc.? I've been told that their favorite horse to obtain is a TB that has not been tattooed, this way it can be advertised as a warmblood cross? When in fact they know for sure the breeding of said animal, it was just never registered and/or raced? I just find this very very hard to swallow and maybe I am just too dang honest. I do know many horses, who are not in fact registered, there is no way of really knowing, but when you know for a fact the horses breeding, etc., and are just adding WB cross in order to make a sale, is this normal behavior?

    Maybe no one else has a problem with this, I just find it very wrong and it is what makes it very very hard for buyers to go out and purchase horses from trainers.

    sometimes but if one really knowledgable they know a tb when they see one


    some people just are not honest -

    have a think for a minute ok
    1- if ones not honest with type of horse are they honest with everything else
    2- you have doubts so you have to decide freind or foe
    meaning your either loyal to your freind as a freind and dont wish to know her bisness and how she applies herself as one could find out later down the line that her lies are going to get her in strife at some point

    or you dismiss her as freind or trianer then look at how honest you are to her a s a freind
    why do i say that, you have doubts - so you have to decide is it time to move on pass it as beginning to bug you
    maybe its time to leave the cope or to stay with the deveil you know but dont interfere with how she applies her bisness just have her as friend but in the same token dont let her get you into strife as well

    so the key point here is honesty on both parties yours and hers and dont think for one minute that some one you do think will not know you posted something becuase half the time they find that someone has - the horse world can be a very large place but in the same token can be very small

    Comment


    • #3
      I market a lot of horses, and yes I am also a "trainer". I try to be 100% up front with people about horses, in all ways. We do sometimes gets "WB crosses" according to the owner. I try to get as much infomration as owner has on the possible breed of the horse, but that is not always possible. So if that is the case I advertise it as a WB cross and explain to prospective buyers that the actually breeding of the horse is not known but it is "reported to be a WB cross". Some times the owner will say "1/2 Trakhener" for example and I will tell buyers that is what the horse is supposed to be but there is no way to verify that. A lot of breeders do not register the geldings if they are WB's as they don't feel it is important, and it is expensive to go thru the inspection process(required for many WB registrys to issue papers).
      www.shawneeacres.net

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Thank you both. I am referring to when you know for a fact, know where the horse was bred and know the parents and still find they advertise as wb cross because they find that opens more avenues for buyers because many people are not looking for a tb.

        I'm sure you can tell, there are many other issues involved and I am still learning the "ways" of the world with these trainer rules and laws. I've been round and round regarding what I feel is proper in disclosing commissions, age of horse, health of horse, etc. and as you can tell, too many questionable practices and I finally just needed to see if this was the norm.

        I understand the market is tough and buyers are scarce, I just had hoped that people would still do the right thing so they could sleep at night. I also know you don't always know the breeding of a particular horse and you can do your best to just investigate as much as you can and let the buyer beware in that regard.

        I just did not want to question a trainer/friend if this is the way of the breeding/sales world and I just needed to get over it. If I then wanted to be sure what I was getting, breed it or buy it from a breeder with paperwork and DNA attached.

        We have since moved on and I am finally finding the courage to question certain practices that I did not find ethical or honest and it had always bothered me, but being naive and not my business, I just turned the other cheek. And, goeslikestink, you are correct, there are many other areas that are now being questioned in regard to honesty and makes me know why I did not totally always respect the opinions and/or advice of this trainer. Thank you.

        Comment


        • #5
          What this trainer is doing is WRONG. Period. I can see how she started doing it - TBs not selling; probably got one in that she wasn't sure of and advertised it as a WB cross; it sold and she started fudging other horses and they sold; then it just snowballed from there. I understand people need to make a living, but lying is not the way to do it. She may think it's an innocent fib because the buyer loves the horse, so it doesn't really matter.... It does matter.

          Full disclosure: I did list a horse for sale as a WB cross in the search criteria but the first line of the ad stated he was a registered Appendix QH. The word "WB" gets people looking, and no one who called me about him was confused about his background.

          If she's a real friend of yours. Ask her about it and tell her you don't feel it is right. Maybe do some research on better ways to market, so you can counter her argument that TBs don't sell (they don't). Never identify a problem without some solutions.

          If she's not really a friend, avoid her whenever there is talk about selling horses. You may want to find another trainer, anyway. If she's dishonest about this, she is most likely bending the truth about other things.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            QHDQ, I have asked her and she said "this is how it's done in trainer land". Which, is why I really just go and find my own horses, was way too leary to be trusting that what someone was representing to me was in fact what I was getting. She said she's been doing this for 20 years and it's just the way of the sales world and how the trainer's work. I just cannot swallow it. I recently also found out that a pony she had purchased for her daughter, she was told was a certain age when she bought him, but when she got the pony card, it showed him 3 years older than she supposedly was told. She then had a equine dentist, friend, give a letter changing his age to be the three years younger, and got a new pony card...since no registration on the pony, who would know? All these things are just so very scarey to me as a future buyer in the horse market.

            Comment


            • #7
              Run. Not everyone operates like this.

              Comment


              • #8
                There are honest and dishonest people in this world with any kind of sales. In this case, the trainer is crooked if there is deliberate misrepresentation going on. I sell horses, but its a specialty breed and I don't touch anything that isn't registered. And I also have a couple of warmbloods -- with papers -- so I am real familiar with this "warmblood cross" claim. Unless the seller can point to the parentage, I don't believe it. But I am an educated buyer and many buyers are not.

                One thing to consider if misrepresenting a horse is that the buyer can take the seller to small claims court. I had a boarder who did just that and won. The horse she bought was not what the seller stated she was on the bill of sale. In particular, she was significantly older than her stated age. So misrepresentation can bite you back hard.

                I wouldn't associate myself with someone who deliberately misrepresented horses. As other said, it's a good indication of that person's ethics and the behavior probably extends to other areas of his/her life.
                Where Fjeral Norwegian Fjords Rule
                http://www.ironwood-farm.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  I just encountered something similar while horse shopping for my 24 yr old daughter. Really frustrating for DD to take the afternoon off of work for us to drive 2 hours to go see a horse that isn't anything like it was advertised, including it wasn't trained, the horse wasn't 15.2h, but maybe 14.2, high headed and upside down and just plain scrawny. And, it was totally unsound.

                  When we had inquired and asked for pics, trainer said she sent them and they must have gotten lost. If we had seen pics, we wouldn't have wasted our time. Instead, we still wasted our time and hers.

                  I predict this young "trainer" won't be in business long.

                  When people mispresent horses, eventually it comes back around and bites them on the hiney.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This happened to me from a seller side. I sent a purebred Arab to a very trusted(at least I thought) friend who was a well known protrainer in my area to sell for me. This is a person who I was close with for about 4years at the time. She sells Arab to another local trainer who sells him to one of her clients.

                    I still had his papers and I could not track down new owners since they left trainer 2 shortly after(don't know why). I finally came across them while visiting a friend at her new barn. I told them I used to own him and had his papers. he had a bunch of halter points and was Sweepstakes nominated if they wanted to go to any Arab shows. They were rather surprised to find out he was an Arab!!

                    I was equally pissed about this too cause now I look bad and I hate dishonesty.

                    I found out that trainer 2 thought him a welsh arab or welsh Quarter possibly and my "friend" did not tell her otherwise.

                    I no longer deal with this "friend" and neither does trainer 2. People with Arab still have him several years later and he's doing great with their kids at the local level hunter shows which is all they wanted him for anyway. And of course i gave them his papers the next day! They thought it was neat to know his breeding once they got over the shock of finding out what he was.
                    Check us out on Facebook at EVER AFTER FARM

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm one of those owners who is TOO honest. I tell a potential owner EVERYTHING I know about this horse. lol. I got sold several horses that were NOTHING like they were advertised as. Boy, I got screwed over. I learned a lot but an OTTB (that was crazy) sold to a beginner twelve year old timid rider? I don't think so....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think you already knew the answer to your question.
                        "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                        ---
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Well, I knew what was right in my head and heart, but not knowing how this "sales" business in the minds of trainer's work, I was certainly hoping this was not the norm. You guys have pretty much answered that question for me and I again, will always trust my gut and intuition.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by WonderCloser View Post
                            Well, I knew what was right in my head and heart, but not knowing how this "sales" business in the minds of trainer's work, I was certainly hoping this was not the norm. You guys have pretty much answered that question for me and I again, will always trust my gut and intuition.
                            then you have learn a valuable lesson you can be grateful your freind gave you that opportunity

                            lol

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Well I will say this, I have a yearling TB colt, that is not registered. I got him from a "rescue" type situation where the mare had not been fed well at all, the mare owner bred her to a pretty decent racing stallion, but never paid the stud fee so no papers. I know his entire bloodlines but not registered. When I sell him it will be with full disclosure that he IS a full blooded TB and what his bloodlines are, altho he will not be registered. Since I do not race not worth the $$$ to pay the stud fees and other fees to register him as a gelding.
                              www.shawneeacres.net

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                WonderCloser, I've watched a few trainers over the years do some unethical stuff as well, such as:

                                1. Talk beginner riders into buying horses that are *totally* unsuitable for them, and then using these horses in lesson strings.
                                2. Sell a horse with a known head shaking issue as 'sound'.
                                3. Take advantage of *numerous* students and clients who unfortunately, trusted them and their advice.

                                Good for you for questioning their actions and relying on your gut to tell you what's what!!!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Is it just me, or is it normal for trainers to advertise a horse and not be truthful about it's true breed, etc.? I've been told that their favorite horse to obtain is a TB that has not been tattooed
                                  I drove 2 hours to look at a "cross". After seeing him in turnout I flipped his lip and yes, there was the tattoo. The trainer was
                                  Humans don’t mind duress, in fact they thrive on it. What they mind is not feeling necessary. –Sebastian Junger

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by WonderCloser View Post
                                    QHDQ, I have asked her and she said "this is how it's done in trainer land".
                                    Just echoing what others have said, but no, it isn't. I am a pro as well and I don't misrepresent my horses, and neither do many of my colleagues. Unfortunately, there is a lot of dishonesty in the industry, but it isn't like everyone does it--that's just what the dishonest ones want you to think.

                                    It's not even that hard to sell an unraced TB vs. a "WB cross." If she's blatantly dishonest about this, I wonder what else she is lying about.
                                    exploring the relationship between horse and human

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      It's a tough business, and typically "horse dealers" are thought to be universally dishonest.

                                      In my experience, that's not the case. There may be a lot of dishonest ones out there, but there are just as many (and I think more) of honest dealers. Don't just "assume" honesty, but check with your horse community. They'll know who's honest and who isn't.

                                      My favorite story is an old man with a junky trailer near Lexington who came to give us a price on a mare we wanted to wholesale (we don't sell horses who don't meet our standards to retail customers). He had a hairy, mud-covered gelding on the trailer when he looked at our mare. Megan asked about the gelding and then asked to be able to inspect him. The man was direct and honest - he said the horse was "a mean'un," not safe, he wouldn't sell him to us (he was going to the killers), and he couldn't get him back on the trailer if he unloaded him. Pretty honest, huh! So of course Megan bought him.

                                      He's The Grasshopper, Megan's favorite horse. Area VIII Preliminary champion, 2009. The first Preliminary Gold Medal winner in the USEA's new medal program. Completed Fair Hill CCI** in the worst footing in history last year. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - in the wrong hands, we're told he killed a man. In the right hands, he's a champion.

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