Sport Horse Spotlight

calucci_cf_sq

Real Estate Spotlight

1

Sale Spotlight

  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Another Update Page 5 - Disturbing Situation - Wheels in Motion

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    This was SOP at a QH barn where I briefly boarded - very briefly. I think it is indeed abusive, and disgusting. If the BO is ok with it, perhaps that’s a good sign you need to start looking for another barn.

    On another note I have to ask - what the heck is a “Mexican dancing horse?”

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
      W

      I'm not sure there's much you can do. Ranch horses work harder and longer than the time this horse was tied.
      I'm sorry, but this is in no way comparable to ranch horses who are fit, conditioned, and actually out WORKING.

      Those horses are stretching muscles, resting, going again. This horse was tied for hours on end, with no relief, in one of the most dangerous bits around. Absolutely no comparison at all. This is torture, pure and simple. Hold your arm above your head. See how excruciating it becomes after just a few minutes. Now, do it for four hours.

      OP, I would have documented it fully, gone into the stall, untacked that poor horse, and then left a note on the stall door explaining that if the 'owner' wanted to have a chat about it, to come find me - and also, that I'd notified the police and filed a report, because that's exactly what I would have done next. If the owner had the balls to actually come find me, they would not have enjoyed the experience.

      Comment


      • #23
        I would take the bridle off if i saw that. Or talk to the barn owner - horses are not allowed to be tied in a bridle. Period.

        My Paso was trained by the "dancing horse" idiots. He will never get over what was done to him. He will flinch if... Another horse stomps a fly, if you touch him unexpectedly, if there's a sudden noise, when you walk up and try to touch him, etc. He's terrified of everyone and tends to keep his tail clamped when you are around him. He's traumatized and that fear is never going to totally go away. He is very sweet, just incredibly timid. Poor thing.

        You need to decide if you want to leave because of this, or if you are going to stay and intervene the next time you see something like this. If no one is around, i would untack the horse.

        Comment


        • #24
          Have you mentioned this to the owner of the horse. "Gee, John, I was at the barn yesterday and saw that Bandit was tied in his stall with a spade bit, unable to move his head. Four hours later he was still tied like that. Did you know that was happening?"
          Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
          EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

          Comment


          • #25
            I'd say something to the BO, just to let them know you noticed and don't approve. Probably something like "What's the deal with that horse who was tied to the ceiling all day with a spade bit in his mouth?" Then, the BO will give whatever lame excuse for doing that that they have, which I'd follow up with "Well, I think that's horribly cruel and shouldn't be allowed here". If people speak up and/or leave because of this, maybe they'll think twice about allowing it to happen in the future.

            Comment


            • #26
              Based upon the original post, it appears the barn owner knows. As cowardly as it may seem, I would want my horse out of there before I involved police or ACC. There are a lot of creepy people in the world who may retaliate if no one is around...and the barn owner doesn’t appear to be concerned about horse welfare.

              Comment


              • #27
                I would quietly document and then raise hell. From what I have read (haven’t experienced), if the horse is fed and watered, many jurisdictions will not intervene. It is horrific. That said, and that in mind, I would document as much as I could and then evacuate my horse to safer pastures and then raise hell everywhere. Social pressure can sometimes do what law enforcement won’t. Maybe I am wrong, but that’s my instinct!

                Comment


                • #28
                  A local QH trainer used to do this so the horses couldn't move or drink before a show the night before.

                  AS A TEENAGER, my friends and I would untie them and let them drink/move for a bit (secretly hoping they'd have energy to buck off their riders), then tie back up. Trainer is old, but still around. Never highly successful though.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Callista17 View Post
                    A local QH trainer used to do this so the horses couldn't move or drink before a show the night before.

                    AS A TEENAGER, my friends and I would untie them and let them drink/move for a bit (secretly hoping they'd have energy to buck off their riders), then tie back up. Trainer is old, but still around. Never highly successful though.
                    At AQHA shows, stewards walk around and would elilminate any one that did that to any horse, is against the rules.
                    They would then be suspended and listed in the AQHA list of suspended persons.
                    If OP needs confirmation that such is abusive when talking to BO or animal control, this may help:

                    AQHA rules against tying a horse's head up, pg 36 of rulebook:

                    https://www.aqha.com/documents/82601...d-8849dabace6b

                    ---"VIO200. INHUMANE TREATMENT. No person shall treat any horse in an inhumane manner. This prohibition against inhumane treatment applies to AQHA members and nonmembers. Inhumane treatment shall include, but not be limited to, the prohibited conduct specified below. Inhumane treatment to horses other than American Quarter Horses and other animals used in competition is included in this prohibition as it indicates a general course of dealing with horses which is unacceptable to AQHA.

                    VIO200.1 For purposes of this rule, a person responsible for the care of a horse is also responsible for and may be disciplined for the inhumane conduct of their trainers, agents, representatives and employees. For violation of this rule, an individual may be disci- plined, suspended, fined, denied AQHA privileges, disqualified, expelled from show grounds and/or expelled from AQHA.

                    VIO201. Inhumane treatment of any horse or any other animal on show grounds is strictly prohibited. Treatment of any horse will be considered inhumane if a person, educated or experienced in accepted equine training techniques, would perceive the conduct of an individual to be inhumane. VIO202. For purposes of this rule, a fines and penalty system has been established based on the severity of the offense. All offenses per VIO204 below will be assigned a minimum level of offense (level 1 = mild; level 2 = moderate; level 3 = severe). Depending on the facts of a situation, the level of offense may be increased.

                    VIO203. Warning or Show Ground Removal cards will be issued based on the frequency and level of offense.
                    VIO204. Inhumane treatment includes, but is not limited to:

                    VIO204.1 placing an object in a horse’s mouth so as to cause undue discomfort or distress (minimum level 2);
                    VIO204.2 leaving a bit in a horse’s mouth for extended periods of time so as to cause undue discomfort or distress (minimum level 1); VIO204.3 tying a horse’s head up (above withers), back or around in a stall or anywhere at an AQHA event in a manner as to cause undue discomfort or distress (minimum level 2);

                    36 © 2019 AMERICAN QUARTER HORSE ASSOCIATION"---

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      I've never heard of such a practice, but neither do I know what a mexican dancing horse actually is or does. The mental image I get from the OP's description is enough to give me nightmares... that poor horse. Barbaric to say the least and I hope the horse never has to experience something so patently cruel again. OP, PLEASE do vote with your feet or wallet and let the BO know exactly why. I think I would have been one of the "sneaky" ones as suggested above; released him and lied by saying 'oh he was tangled' and face up to whoever may complain that stopped his pain.

                      Edited: PS, I hope your own fella is doing okay after his vet visit.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by BigMama1 View Post
                        This was SOP at a QH barn where I briefly boarded - very briefly. I think it is indeed abusive, and disgusting. If the BO is ok with it, perhaps that’s a good sign you need to start looking for another barn.

                        On another note I have to ask - what the heck is a “Mexican dancing horse?”
                        I don't even know how to describe it properly but they begin the training using some of the techniques of the airs above the ground, so they'll be asked to move forward while in between poles, but the motions are much more random so instead of getting a levade leading to capriole they go forward and or up randomly.. They aren't interested in classical dressage, it's sort of like bullfighter work, rapid acceleration, really fast 360 turns, collection that isn't really after anything but vertical motion.

                        Ive seen video where they stand behind the horse and toss firecrackers so the horse jumps forward and is stopped, they whip the ground by the back feet, whip the back feet.the horses are taught to canter in place, trot/canter lunge to either side, all very showy. Charro is an old culture and it's pretty hard on the horse.

                        .
                        Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
                        Incredible Invisible

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Oh bejeezus, whatever you do, don't look up mexican dancing horses.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            This is a Western Pleasure thing. Wear the horse's neck muscles out so that they have to "peanut roll" around the ring. Used to be a sure route to to a Blue Ribbon. Goes along with the "shuffle footed" gait that was common.

                            I understand that the judging standards have changed and the circumstances you saw, if reported to a show management, should result in corrective action vis-a-vis the owner/rider/trainer. I also understand from some of QH friends that not everyone has gotten the memo yet and what you saw is still a too common practice and still wins too many Blue Ribbons.

                            Once you've told the barn owner you've done your job. Let them deal with it; that's why they get paid the Big Bucks. If they don't then the consequences are on them. If you don't like it then you have alternatives but they may carry consequences for you. If no action, move to another barn. That's often costly and can have other negative consequences. Call A/C if you like but if A/C shows up the BO won't be happy. The owner won't be happy. And they will assume that you made the call as so far you're the only one to complain. A/C generally does not disclose the name of a complainant but that won't likely help you.

                            Good luck in your decision.

                            G.
                            Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raa, Uma Paixo

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I have never seen a mexican dancing horse but in videos.
                              They are little horses that jig in place, that the owner rents out or rides himself in weddings and birthday parties, in yards or even inside the houses, as an extra entertainment, horse jumping around right along with the music and people dancing.

                              I don't know how they train them, but since horses will jig around like that when scared from something, I am afraid that some will use scaring them to train them into that jigging, while holding them in place.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...+dancing+horse

                                This is an example of Mexican horse dancing.

                                I've already given notice at my barn and simply told them there were a number of mitigating factors and I wasn't a good fit in this barn with my riding goals.

                                I've only seen the owner of this horse once, before I was started boarding and asked him whether he liked it there. He wasn't tied by the bridle, but had a halter on over the bridle and the rope was tied to that. Nevertheless, damage is being done and that horse will probably not be the same.

                                One woman has a horse there that had been a dancing horse that she was trying to retrain into riding/pleasure horse and while the horse could move freely when not under tack, you put the saddle on and all he would do is dance around in place. He didn't know he could just walk out with a rider. Took a few times but I suggested she have her husband lead him around while she was aboard and that seemed to click in his brain and he now can move without the dancing.

                                Pocket Rocket - thanks for asking. the vet visit was for a chiro treatment. I have my horses chiroed (sp?) regularly and as he is new to me I wanted to establish a delta. I'm glad I went because he was out in so many places and could see a difference immediately through his top line.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Bluey View Post

                                  At AQHA shows, stewards walk around and would elilminate any one that did that to any horse, is against the rules.
                                  They would then be suspended and listed in the AQHA list of suspended persons.-
                                  Again, it was the night before a show.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Callista17 View Post

                                    Again, it was the night before a show.
                                    If the horse is on the show grounds during an AQHA show, they are under AQHA rules and will be checked by stewards at any time and if something like described in the rules happens, there will be consequences.
                                    Has been like that for decades.

                                    Just for those that may not know.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Not sure what it would accomplish for a "dancing horse". But people have strange ideas of how to "train".

                                      I recall going into a barn at a QH show many, many years ago. It was when the peanut rolling was at its peak and the Association just started trying to address abuses. There were signs posted prominently in the barns listing prohibited activities. They included tying up the horse's head and bleeding horses (an apparent effort to make them quiet) among other things. I was appalled that they actually needed to tell people that!

                                      At the same time a friend was showing in Arabian shows. They had just started (I believe) posting rules about "whipping up", whip welts on horses and prohibiting some animation devices. Other side of the spectrum. Halter horses had to be in a designated area for a period of time before their class.

                                      Kudos to the Associations for at least doing something to curb abuses. But a sad commentary on how some people will do anything for a win.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Was its head unnaturally high or in sort of a basic resting position? was it tied by the spade bit or by a rope halter underneath?

                                        I think it is really common to tie tacked horses between several rides a day in a western barn. It's a common thing, usually there are a row of horses fully tacked along one row of the indoor. They ride one for 20 minutes, put it back on "the wall," to stand hard tied while they ride a couple more, loop back and ride the first one again, etc. for several hours. But the horses are actually tied by a halter, not the bridle, and the horses are tied close but in a resting position, usually dozing with a hoof cocked while they wait their turn again. They can't put their heads down to the ground, but they don't need to either.

                                        That kind of thing doesn't really bother me at all.

                                        But if the horse in question was tied by a bit with its head in a stress position, very different story--that is clearly abusive. it's very much a question of details. if it upset you to see, it was very probably abusive.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post
                                          Was its head unnaturally high or in sort of a basic resting position? was it tied by the spade bit or by a rope halter underneath?

                                          I think it is really common to tie tacked horses between several rides a day in a western barn. It's a common thing, usually there are a row of horses fully tacked along one row of the indoor. They ride one for 20 minutes, put it back on "the wall," to stand hard tied while they ride a couple more, loop back and ride the first one again, etc. for several hours. But the horses are actually tied by a halter, not the bridle, and the horses are tied close but in a resting position, usually dozing with a hoof cocked while they wait their turn again. They can't put their heads down to the ground, but they don't need to either.

                                          That kind of thing doesn't really bother me at all.

                                          But if the horse in question was tied by a bit with its head in a stress position, very different story--that is clearly abusive. it's very much a question of details. if it upset you to see, it was very probably abusive.
                                          Concur.

                                          When we tie a horse it's eye high, arm's length, with and to something that won't break. This WILL limit the range of motion of the head but not in a way that would likely cause negative consequences, like un-natural muscle fatigue. Horses used in "riding strings" in many locations are tied this way. If for any length of time we will add a hay bag, maybe a bucket of water.

                                          The "Western Pleasure Tie" (which is what the OP describes) is NOT a healthy way to tie a horse and is designed to cause fatigue.

                                          Perhaps, as you note, the difference is in the details. One is perfectly OK; the other a demonstration of animal cruelty.

                                          G.
                                          Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raa, Uma Paixo

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X