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Buyer throwing up red flags

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  • hoopoe
    replied
    he sounds like a well rehearsed scam artist. How friendly are you with other breeders in your state / country. Perhaps his M.O. is known

    Leave a comment:


  • js
    replied
    Document and then block his phone number and email address (if your phone etc. allows). Do not respond any further with this individual.

    Leave a comment:


  • Moonlitoaks
    replied
    Disappointment is a bitter pill to swallow. Sounds like he liked the idea of owning a Friesian. Status symbol? Whatever his motivation, I'm glad you nixed it.

    I refused to sell a heifer to a woman I suspected was a hoarder. She sounded rather nutty on the phone and I got a weird vibe from her when she kept going on about breeding the heifer to her (far too large) bull. She had no way to catch the heifer and complained about her pasture being bare from all the goats. When I get a bad feeling, I offer a farm visit to help with ideas on how to set up a catch pen and chute, etc... This was not well-received with this woman. I did what you did, OP. The heifer was no longer available. She called back a year later, when I was selling more calves, and got the same answer.

    Leave a comment:


  • BrokenArrow
    replied
    SonnysMom nailed it on the head. Having possession of the horse until it's paid off saves a lot of drama.

    It's fairly common to offer payment plans on youngsters around here. Most of them are until weaning, but some people offer them for the unbroken stock too. It's been a bad few years here for drought in Australia, making the market even tougher than usual. It's a helpful selling pointand the ones my inlaws have sold on payment plans have all been short term, 3-6 months usually, and never had any dramas with people not paying.

    Thanks for your help and reassurance everyone. He hasn't contacted me again, so here's hoping it'll be the last of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Redlei44
    replied
    OP, out of curiosity, is offering payment plans strictly necessary for this market? Not offering them seems like it would be quite useful in deterring this type of buyer from contacting you in the first place, as well as mitigating the issues associated with the insurance and his specific questions about “what happens if. . .”

    Leave a comment:


  • Unfforgettable
    replied
    He incurred those expenses on his own and then started adding concerns and conditions to the sale that negated such sale. That's his problem and not yours. I'd ignore him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rockfish
    replied
    Originally posted by Moonlitoaks View Post
    A beginner willing to learn is good. A beginner that knows it all is bad.
    Quoted for emphasis!

    Leave a comment:


  • SonnysMom
    replied
    Originally posted by Guilherme View Post



    Personally, any contract that restricts my right to exercise full care, custody, and control of something I buy will be VERY carefully considered.
    But in this situation the buyer is using the breeder as a bank. If the buyer wants full care, custody and control of something they need to actual buy it -as is pay in full for it. Would you sell some stranger off the street a car and let them leave with it after on putting down a deposit? Of course they would need the title so they can register it to get insurance. So what is your recourse if they wreck the car before they finish paying for it? Or if they stop paying for the car?
    Even if you buy a car from a dealer and get to take the car home and use it the dealer gets paid for the car. The bank/credit union etc...has to deal with the headache of failure to pay, wrecked car, possible re-possession. And they have processes that better allow them to assess the risk through credit checks and they have actuarial tables to assess the risk. They probably have contracts with repo agents to go take a car back. They have the added leverage of being able to adversely impact the dead beat buyers credit. They get notified by the insurance company of the buyer stops paying the car insurance.
    Many of these resources are either unavailable to a breeder of horses or much harder for them to do. The breeder may or may not be charging interest but the bank is getting interest and late penalties if applicable. If the buyer wants the convenience of paying over time and not getting a personal loan through a bank then he may need to suck it up and give up his full care, custody and control of the horse until it is fully his.

    If the horse is still at the breeders farm they can word the contract so that if the buyer fails to make the regular payments they forfeit the prior payments and full ownership reverts to the breeder. It makes it much more complicated if the breeder has to try to physically repossess the horse. What happens if the buyer has moved the horse to an undisclosed location? Or if the horse is now lame? Or horse has had its training wrecked? This is why many people either won't lease a horse off-site or won't lease at all.

    If the horse stays at the breeder's farm until the horse is paid for in full the breeder can continue to make sure the horse is appropriately fed, turned out and handled. The breeder does not have to worry about getting a court order to repossess the horse, finding the horse and actually being able to repossess the horse. Repossessing the horse may include getting the local law enforcement involved to go with the shipper when the horse is picked up. You get rid of much of that hassle if the horse stays in your possession until it is fully paid for and if there is a good contract in place. IMO the breeder is smart to keep possession of the horse to help mitigate risk until the horse is paid in full.

    OP- I think you were smart to tell this potential buyer no. As far as responding to his demand to pay for his expenses there are a few ways that you could handle it. 1. ignore it and see if he continues to push the issue 2. respond that he will not be reimbursed for expenses that he chose to incur 3. send it to an attorney for them to respond to him. Obviously if the farm already has a relationship with an attorney for say sales contracts/boarding contracts/breeding contracts that makes it much easier.


    Leave a comment:


  • Mara
    replied
    Originally posted by Scribbler View Post

    Document everything he has sent you so far and then block him.

    Don't respond.

    ​​​​​​I think it's possible he was setting up this kind of scam from the start, whether it's just because he is crazy or whether he has actually extorted the occasional $100 bill out of exasperated sellers.

    I think he has visions of $$$$....probably planned to pay for the horse from the money he "made" selling in-utero foals.

    Because of course OP would have NO problem overseeing the breeding of a horse that hasn't been paid for yet. A 2yo, no less. (Hey, I've heard crazier, as have most horse people!)
    Last edited by Mara; Jan. 28, 2020, 01:37 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Where'sMyWhite
    replied
    Guilherme I'd have just looked for a different breeder. In the many purebred dogs I've owned in my life, I've never see a contract with the language you mention.

    The closest mine came was the breeder was part owner but the dog was still mine to do with what I wish with the exception of registering any offspring with AKC without the co-owners permission

    Leave a comment:


  • Guilherme
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparrowette View Post
    OP, I'm confused. In my perhaps faulty understanding, I don't see in your posts if the contract states when ownership of the horse actually changes. Boarding and other costs are required after deposit, mortality insurance recommended, so it sounds like ownership transfers at deposit, but if so, couldn't they just take their horse? If ownership transfers at payment in full, then they are paying these fees (boarding, medical & insurance) for a horse that they don't own yet.

    Can someone clear this up for me?
    If there is a contract that states when ownership transfers in any sort of transaction then that's when it transfers. If post-transfer duties are imposed by the contract then they are valid until the contract says they are no longer required. People are pretty much free to contract any way they wish.

    But the above can have limits. Sometimes a contractual clause can be found to be over-reaching or otherwise "unfair." The burden to establish this is not a light one in most cases. Freedom of Contract usually means what it says.

    If there is no contract then you must look to the common or statutory law of the jurisdiction involved to answer questions of when ownership begins and who has the right to take custody and when risk of loss passes.

    Personally, any contract that restricts my right to exercise full care, custody, and control of something I buy will be VERY carefully considered. Some time back my wife was interested in getting a Bernese Mt. Dog. We bred these in the early to mid-'70s and really like the breed. So I did some search and found the purchase process to be beyond ridiculous. It was more difficult than adopting children!* I understand the motivation to not want to sell animals into an abusive situation but levels of documentation and background information were intrusive beyond any possible justification. Then there were the limits on selling the dog after the purchase.** We abandoned the project rather quickly.

    G.

    *Which we did...twice.

    **Much of the verbiage in these requirements were in the form of "adoption," not "purchase." We know the difference. You "adopt" children and they become legally your responsibility and your heirs. You purchase animals. You then become responsible to follow the humane laws of your jurisdiction. But you also are free to sell, euthanize, or otherwise dispose of them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dressurfrau
    replied
    I'm sure you care very much about where your horses go so good on you for not completing the sale.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gardenhorse
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparrowette View Post
    OP, I'm confused. In my perhaps faulty understanding, I don't see in your posts if the contract states when ownership of the horse actually changes. Boarding and other costs are required after deposit, mortality insurance recommended, so it sounds like ownership transfers at deposit, but if so, couldn't they just take their horse? If ownership transfers at payment in full, then they are paying these fees (boarding, medical & insurance) for a horse that they don't own yet.

    Can someone clear this up for me?
    If the buyer paid in full at the time of purchase, ownership would transfer immediately, and breeder would have no more expenses.

    If the buyer wants convenience of payment plan, ownership does not transfer until full payment is received. In the meantime, horse stays at breeder’s farm, and future owner pays all expenses. I assume the staying at breeder’s farm is so that breeder can be sure of getting their full payment without the hassle of having to sue the buyer and/or send them to a collections agency.

    Leave a comment:


  • alibi_18
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparrowette View Post
    She was grieving. Anger is a part of the process. I'm sure that after a while, some of what you told her sunk in.
    I know.
    But clearly, she was also badly surrounded. Very limited in veterinary knowledge... I just hope she will never ever try to put a tube down any of her horses...

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparrowette
    replied
    OP, I'm confused. In my perhaps faulty understanding, I don't see in your posts if the contract states when ownership of the horse actually changes. Boarding and other costs are required after deposit, mortality insurance recommended, so it sounds like ownership transfers at deposit, but if so, couldn't they just take their horse? If ownership transfers at payment in full, then they are paying these fees (boarding, medical & insurance) for a horse that they don't own yet.

    Can someone clear this up for me?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparrowette
    replied
    Originally posted by Pocket Rocket View Post
    Hopefully Mr. Important Pants will just disappear up his own butthurt butt! What a doofus!
    "Mr. Important Pants" would be a good name for a Stallion..

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparrowette
    replied
    Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post
    When I was working in a tack shop someone came in to buy a tube and some mineral oil.

    She wanted to be prepared in case one of her other horses would be fine if ever they had a colic.
    She was quite angry at her vet.

    One of her horse had just died of colic.
    Her friend had told her the vet should have tubed her horse with oil and it would have survived.
    She wanted to sue the vet... has she felt the vet hadn’t followed basic protocol...

    I was quite stunned.
    And asked for the « full » story...

    Older horse had been down in the field when the vet arrived.
    Didn’t knew for how long - those were pasture horses who get checked once or twice a day at best.

    Vet couldn’t get the horse up and offered to euthanized it on the spot. No autopsy/necropsy done.

    I had to explain to the lady that one could not tube a horse if it wasn’t standing.
    I also tried to explain that mineral oil is no magic cure; « colics » being a generic term used for many ailments.
    It could have been a gaz colic, a torsion or an impaction... or anything else actually... a internal cancer that bursted...

    I then explained the procedure ... that the vet would have had to empty the horse’s stomach first before pumping oil in there, only if it was an impaction. or pumping gaz-x stuff to remove the gaz buildup.

    I also made it clear that tubing a horse wasn’t that easy! That she should never, ever attempt it without learning how do to it because she could very well kill her horse by doing so! Imagine pumping oil in your horse’s lungs!

    Long story short, she still was pissed we had no tube or pump to sell her...
    She left with a gallon of mineral oil and a big oral syringe, and told me I should mind my business.

    I wouldn’t want to be her vet, sell her a horse or do horse related business with such uneducated cray-cray.

    Life is too short.
    You dodged a bullet.
    She was grieving. Anger is a part of the process. I'm sure that after a while, some of what you told her sunk in.

    Leave a comment:


  • lorilu
    replied
    I once told folks that I would not sell them a horse because I had the same gut feeling after similar questions. They tried to bully me into selling him...... but I don't bully easily. Just say no and send him on his way.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scribbler
    replied
    Originally posted by BrokenArrow View Post
    Well, the crazy continues. I seriously don't know how I attract the crazy people in my life.

    I got a bill this morning from him as he wanted me to reimburse him for his travel costs and time since I took the fillies off the market. The email was along the lines of, he is a very important business man and his time is too valuable to be wasted by the likes of people like me. Cue my eyes rolling into the back of my skull as I read the email.

    Part of me is tempted to send him a bill for my time with all his phone calls, emails and text messages I've had to reply to while this has been going on. Every time he called, it was a minimum of an hour on the phone trying to answer his questions. I work odd hours and when people ring me at 9pm and then consistently ring 3 or 4 times when I don't answer is exhausting. I'm not a pro anymore. I gave it up because of the one person like this who ruins it for everyone else.

    Everything is being kept track of if he does decide to pursue it further. Part of me thinks this is simply hot air and someone who's butthurt. But better to be prepared if his brand of crazy is a little crazier than usual.
    Document everything he has sent you so far and then block him.

    Don't respond.

    ​​​​​​I think it's possible he was setting up this kind of scam from the start, whether it's just because he is crazy or whether he has actually extorted the occasional $100 bill out of exasperated sellers.


    Leave a comment:


  • Sansena
    replied
    Originally posted by CanteringCarrot View Post
    This is just my personal opinion, but it is not your problem that a buyer decided to come to you. It is not your problem that he incurred travel costs. He could have looked locally. Or acknowledged that is a risk. One can travel to go look at a horse, not sign any contract or bill of sale. While said person is going back and forther over whether or not they want to purchase the horse, the horse could be sold. That's real life.

    If he was serious he could have left a deposit. Could have set up a vet check.

    I understand that he had questions, but also simply could not acknowledge that with horses, there are very, very, few guarantees. One cannot guarantee the horse won't colic, get struck by lightening, be involved in some freak event. One cannot also guarantee that said young horse will increase in value or ranking in the breed registry. Buying a horse is a heck of a risk. You can do your due diligence, but at the end of the day, it is an animal.

    A buyer can choose not to buy. A seller can choose not to sell. This excludes contractual obligations, of course. This referes to before a deal is done sort of thing.

    He's going to have to cut his losses and move along. Or maybe he will be so sour he will no longer shop for a horse (that might be ideal, really). Who knows. Don't contact him. If he is serious, his lawyer will contact you, and you will then acquire council/legal advisement.

    Just my 2 cents. I hope that nothing further comes of this and that if you choose to continue selling horses the crazies stay away.
    I take back what I posted before. This is the best advice

    Leave a comment:

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