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Vent... I hate the suburbs.

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Hunter Mom View Post
    My husband's Great Grandfather owned a cattle ranch in Colorado at the turn of the century. Went up the valley about 25 miles. A gold medal trout stream ran through it, and it went up to 5 miles back from the river in some areas. He sold off part of it (huge parts to the US Forest Service, so at least that's all "safe") and gave the rest to his 8 kids. Now those "kids" are all gone and their kids (my MIL's generation) have it. Most have no more than about 3 acres, and some can't afford to build on it anyhow given where it is. We can only fish about 1/2 mile of the river now on family-owned land. If only we still had all of that land...
    Agriculture is what keeps land open.
    Many farms and ranches are chopped up because of inheritance taxes.
    Those taxes are unfair on so many levels.

    The land was already bought with someone selling land they had been paying taxes every year and now paying (capital gains) taxes on that sale.
    Then the new owners pay taxes on that land all those years and when they die, the heirs have to pay up to 55% of the value of that land on taxes.
    No matter how creative their accountans get with trusts and gifts, some land will have to be sold to pay those taxes, now or later and so the break up of the open lands start, as the smaller parcels become less economical to run as farm land.

    That has been happening around here every time some land owner dies.

    Those social engineers that don't like for one person to own much land think it is good, keeps land ownership moving.
    On the other hand, larger tracts of land under one family keeps that land open and maybe free from development for longer.

    When it comes to developing land, we can't halt progress, so even with conservation deeds, if the county or city wants some land, they will trade for it, force hands or whatever they have to, but they in the end get their way for their new school, mall or whatever their planning commissions fancy.

    The problem is the growing population.
    Who is going to tell others they can't have kids, or how many if they do and who is going to enforce it, so we don't need to keep paving the earth over, in the quest of some quality of life for as many as societies can provide for?

    Yes, there is much we could manage better when it comes to land, open, under development or already developed, but the devil is in the details, to get all the ducks in a row and convince the public of what is best.
    Not easy to do, development will occur wherever it will occur, you can't always count on "build or renovate it and they will come".

    These are important debates that have been going on for long time now.

    Comment


    • #22
      And "land conservancy" isn't even infallible.
      One elderly horse lady in my area left all the adjacent land to her horse farm to a "forever wild" land trust. It once was "out in the country", but was quickly encroached by suburbia and now, really just a part of the main city.
      The land was supposed to be for public use with the stipulation all meadows would be maintained by cutting the hay for the horse farm. Trails are open to city folk who want to hike and horse trails.
      When I moved away about 15 years ago there was a HUGE controversy over the land. The city folk actually complained about seeing tractors harvesting hay and manuer on trails.

      Not sure how it turned out, but incredibly scared at the idear ignoramuses that haven't a clue on proper land management could actually change a donor's wishes.

      Comment


      • #23
        Yeah, that is some crap! A very quaint farm not too far from where I live was sold to some suburbanites. It had a patch of med. sized pine trees, a pond, old farmhouse and barn, and nice large trees (hickory etc). What did the new owners do?...tore EVERYTHING down, everything!! I'll admit it, I'm a tree hugger, so when they tore down the beautiful patch of Pines-I was red with anger and this is how stupid they are--they planted teeny tiny baby pine trees, just in a different line!!

        They put their gawdy oversized house in the middle of the fields-so now there is a bunch of wasted space--it just drives me crazy because their whole property reaks of pretentiousness, city slickers wanting to play "farm owner".

        Anyway, I know how ya feel, it really sucks!
        I LOVE my Chickens!

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #24
          That's an excellent point about the legalities and easements and so on... I'll mention that to the barn manager, she knows the owner much better than I do--I'd feel a little awkward bringing that up. (:

          The cases mentioned of people building houses next to farms or using trails on farm property and then complaining about the smell are the ones that drive me the most insane! It's just ridiculous how people want to move to the country but don't want any of the things associated with country living (y'know, like trees and animals).

          There seemed lots of green space still in Ireland, maybe I can move there...
          "Remain relentlessly cheerful."

          Graphite/Pastel Portraits

          Comment


          • #25
            There are worse things than a Football stadium. I'm guessing it's for the local high school? It'll probably get used about 15 weekends a year as a stadium (football season is short). And practices won't draw more than 100 people or so.
            ==================
            Somehow my inner ten year old seems to have stolen my chequebook!

            http://reriderandpony.blogspot.com/

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by Megaladon View Post
              Yeah, that is some crap! A very quaint farm not too far from where I live was sold to some suburbanites. It had a patch of med. sized pine trees, a pond, old farmhouse and barn, and nice large trees (hickory etc). What did the new owners do?...tore EVERYTHING down, everything!! I'll admit it, I'm a tree hugger, so when they tore down the beautiful patch of Pines-I was red with anger and this is how stupid they are--they planted teeny tiny baby pine trees, just in a different line!!

              They put their gawdy oversized house in the middle of the fields-so now there is a bunch of wasted space--it just drives me crazy because their whole property reaks of pretentiousness, city slickers wanting to play "farm owner".

              Anyway, I know how ya feel, it really sucks!
              Wasted space in your opinion but not theirs, who happened to plop their money down on it - which YOU didn't. They can do whatever they want with their property, can they not? Who in the hell are you to disparage them for doing what they want? And what are they doing to make them "play" at "farm owner"? One can say that about anyone who has never owned a farm and bought one including many people on this board.

              Also, I've read posts on here about people buying land to build their farm and *GASP* "I plan on chopping down all the trees to make a pasture"!

              Comment


              • #27
                I feel your pain. It absolutely breaks my heart what they've done to the outer countryside around DC for the last ten years or so.

                It looks like this. Due to that, the traffic here has become an utter nightmare - there's very limited public transportation to these exurbs.

                Yes people need housing, yes there are more of us and we really don't want our towns going the way of Detroit, but urban planners talk about infill for a reason, it just makes better sense.
                This. One of our biggest problems here is that there's still areas around Washington that are extremely commutable but fail to offer a proper McHome with 6 bedrooms (for your two children), media room and gourtmet kitchen. Some folks are building McMansions in these areas, others just keep moving further out rather than living in a previously acceptable rancher or cape cod near public transit.
                ---
                They're small hearts.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Wasted space in your opinion but not theirs, who happened to plop their money down on it - which YOU didn't. They can do whatever they want with their property, can they not? Who in the hell are you to disparage them for doing what they want? And what are they doing to make them "play" at "farm owner"? One can say that about anyone who has never owned a farm and bought one including many people on this board.
                  I think "Who in the hell are you" is really a little bit much.

                  It's upsetting to see old farm properties torn down. Especially when in the past they've been integral to the community and give longtime folks a sense of place. Especially when they're replaced by something that's hideous.

                  They can do whatever the hell they want and build awful McMansions, ruin traffic for decades to come, cause irreparable damage to local ecosystems and the environment, and yes, we can't exactly tell people NOT to. That doesn't make it less upsetting to see communities ruined. Or what they call it, "improved" by a Walmart, Target, and Megamart.
                  ---
                  They're small hearts.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I'm very much on the fence with this one. My farm is in a totally private location but only 1 mile from the edge of a developing town and at some point in the future no doubt it will be claimed for development land. Right now, I have about 20 acres which are basically unused by us. Neither of these 10 acre fields are anywhere near our farmhouse and are not viewable by us ... so ... *gasp* ... if a developer came to us asking to pay us whatever sum for the 20 acres then I'm sorry but I'd sell in a shot! I'm considering applying for subdivision on them in the next 10 years anyway.

                    Land is a funny old thing, you see I don't view it as belonging to me or you or anyone else; we are merely caretakers of this land for all but a fleeting moment in time. It doesn't matter what is on this land, it never goes away, it will be there until the end of eternity.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Sail Away View Post
                      Wasted space in your opinion but not theirs, who happened to plop their money down on it - which YOU didn't. They can do whatever they want with their property, can they not? Who in the hell are you to disparage them for doing what they want? And what are they doing to make them "play" at "farm owner"? One can say that about anyone who has never owned a farm and bought one including many people on this board.

                      Also, I've read posts on here about people buying land to build their farm and *GASP* "I plan on chopping down all the trees to make a pasture"!
                      Seriously?
                      There is a huge difference between responsible land and heritage stewardship and the "wannabe" farmer, who frequently comes in and does as the previous poster described. Mature trees take decades or even hundreds of years to grow, and to wipe that all out in one afternoon, as one of my former neighbours did as well, IS irresponsible. This is how species (plant or animal) are eradicated; wholesale clearing without any regard for impact on erosion, wildlife, etc. Some asshat did that in my community; cleared 11 acres of woodland with a spring in it for a subdivision. That land has now sat for two years, with a great deal of erosion, scrub plants and weeds growing where before there were mature trees. There are four brand new houses on the corner of the property which are brand new and have been vacant since they were built two years ago. But, it is his "right" to do that, no?!
                      If you want things a certain way, instead of being destructive, perhaps buying a vacant tract of land and building a McMansion there is a better option.
                      Besides, the land is important as well for our very survival -the disappearance of arable farmland means that much less space to grow the food we eat. What happens when the land is gone?
                      Founder of the I LOFF my worrywart TB clique!
                      Official member of the "I Sing Silly Songs to My Animals!" Clique
                      http://wilddiamondintherough.blogspot.ca/

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Trixie View Post
                        I think "Who in the hell are you" is really a little bit much.

                        It's upsetting to see old farm properties torn down. Especially when in the past they've been integral to the community and give longtime folks a sense of place. Especially when they're replaced by something that's hideous.

                        They can do whatever the hell they want and build awful McMansions, ruin traffic for decades to come, cause irreparable damage to local ecosystems and the environment, and yes, we can't exactly tell people NOT to. That doesn't make it less upsetting to see communities ruined. Or what they call it, "improved" by a Walmart, Target, and Megamart.
                        Communities are ruined by those who value the dollar over anything else - which includes the farmer who willingly sells the land to developers and the politician who can be bought and sold to line their pocket.

                        Farmers ruin local ecosystems and the environment as well by the fertilizers they put on their lands and they have aided in the destruction of wetlands.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Communities are ruined by those who value the dollar over anything else - which includes the farmer who willingly sells the land to developers and the politician who can be bought and sold to line their pocket.
                          True - but not every farmer "willingly" sells land to developers. Frequently, the family can't afford the taxes on the land because the property values got pushed up so high due to all the development in the area - a story I've heard time and time again. Farming is not exactly a lucrative endeavor.

                          Farmers ruin local ecosystems and the environment as well by the fertilizers they put on their lands and they have aided in the destruction of wetlands.
                          Well, that's a blanket statement if I've ever heard one. How do YOU eat?

                          Many farmers are excellent stewards of the land and what's around it, certainly more than those that build many large, inefficient box houses made out of plastic.
                          ---
                          They're small hearts.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                            You have to watch those conservation easements and conservation organizations.

                            If they want some other land, they will trade your land, worth ten or hundreds of times more, for other much cheaper land they will then hold as conservation land, until the next trade comes along.

                            There is no way you can stop it.
                            When someone wants that land, they will find a way.
                            While there are organizations out there who will do this, they are a very small minority. Best practices for land conservation groups (and the current land trust accreditation program which is based on the Land Trust Alliance Standards and Practices) really frown on groups accepting lands for conservation purposes, and then trading it for other land. Its a big no-no in our community (I'm a professional with a land trust.). If you're really concerned about this, donate an easement on your property to one organization, and will the fee interest in it to another organization. Or just donate the easement - those can't be "traded away" for other property.

                            For those of you who don't own land, but do want to see open spaces stay open and development to stay in areas close to towns (rather than sprawling into the countryside), I strongly encourage you to do three things:

                            1 - Become a member of your local land trust. These groups need support from people like to you keep working with your neighbor farmers and landowners to protect THEIR land. We can't do it without your support.

                            2 - Educate yourself on local planning and zoning issues. Do you know what your local comprehensive plan says is planned for development? Does that plan jive with the way that YOU think your community should develop? What would your current zoning policies allow? Are you happy with what that would look like?

                            3 - Participate in local government. Comprehensive plans and zoining decisions are made by the people WHO SHOW UP. If the developers are in the public meetings with noone else there to say no to their plans - or make constructive suggestions as to how they could make their projects better - then you can't be angry that they get what they want. Get involved, talk to your friends and neighbors, and make sure that your local government is making the decisions YOU want.
                            Here Be Dragons: My blog about venturing beyond the lower levels as a dressage amateur.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              They haven't quit making people BUT they HAVE QUIT making land! That land that is getting used up by the unrespectful morons is not regenergated 'someday.'

                              I'm all for stacking some people up vs spreading them out. We have had an influx of rich out-if-staters coming into our area and buying up huge chunks of recreational land. Most of them are sitting on it but who knows where it's headed. The local families that have held the land for generations can't pay the RE taxes on it anymore.

                              p.s I don't agree that the developers aren't the problem vs the buyers. You do have a freedom to choose your business life. The nature of the word developer means that when you are done with one project you are ON to ANOTHER ONE.

                              oh I'm feeling feisty this morning
                              The cue card kid just held up an empty cue card. For a minute there I thought I had lost my sense of humor. --- Red Skelton

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                One of the prettiest, well known, lovely older horse farms here in town was called Patchwork. I recall in high school driving through the farm, as a busy road bisected it, I loved seeing the CC jumps in fence lines, the dressage court, the funny old converted cow barn, then later a lovely modern barn set alongside it. The land was/is worth a fortune, as it's quite close in to town and surrounded by development. I stupidly thought and hoped it would 'always be there'. Imagine my sadness and surprise to see on the front page of the Business section, that it was sold to developers.

                                Now it's just another glob of common houses all smashed together. Sure it was their land and their money and they were entirely within their rights to sell it- but I can still mourn the loss. I have the right to feel a little sad knowing Patchwork is gone.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by DeeThbd View Post
                                  Seriously?
                                  There is a huge difference between responsible land and heritage stewardship and the "wannabe" farmer, who frequently comes in and does as the previous poster described. Mature trees take decades or even hundreds of years to grow, and to wipe that all out in one afternoon, as one of my former neighbours did as well, IS irresponsible. This is how species (plant or animal) are eradicated; wholesale clearing without any regard for impact on erosion, wildlife, etc. Some asshat did that in my community; cleared 11 acres of woodland with a spring in it for a subdivision. That land has now sat for two years, with a great deal of erosion, scrub plants and weeds growing where before there were mature trees. There are four brand new houses on the corner of the property which are brand new and have been vacant since they were built two years ago. But, it is his "right" to do that, no?!
                                  If you want things a certain way, instead of being destructive, perhaps buying a vacant tract of land and building a McMansion there is a better option.
                                  Besides, the land is important as well for our very survival -the disappearance of arable farmland means that much less space to grow the food we eat. What happens when the land is gone?
                                  How is it different than a person building a horse farm and chopping down any trees or thinning them out to build pasture? They are changing the landscape and ecosystem as well. Go to Around the Farm forum and there are constant threads on how to eradicate native wildlife in the area.

                                  Tell me how building a stable is more in keeping with the environment than a McMansion? Especially if it is a boarding/training barn with many clients driving in, a parking lot that needs to be built for the clients, a lot of waste material to get rid of. That adds to the traffic, the noise, the pollution with all the cars and the big rig trailers.

                                  Really, I am in agreement with the OP. Just not the "it is only the city slickers who ruin the environment" mentality on this board.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Sail Away View Post
                                    Communities are ruined by those who value the dollar over anything else - which includes the farmer who willingly sells the land to developers and the politician who can be bought and sold to line their pocket.

                                    Farmers ruin local ecosystems and the environment as well by the fertilizers they put on their lands and they have aided in the destruction of wetlands.
                                    Communities are also made by the farmer who willingly sells land to developers. I would hazard a guess that many of the people on this BB live in houses which are less than 10 years old. Even people like myself who live in houses which were built back in the 1800's or earlier. Someone gave up land to build these houses - just because I live in a house which is over 150 years old does not mean that there were no changes to the land. Actually my farm was a forest pre-development, and so was my local town. Horrific eh?

                                    Yes farmers do their part at "ruining" environments or ecosystems - of course they do although I'd not call it ruining, I'd just call it changes the use of the land.

                                    I do think people are taking a very short sighted and selfish view of the world. This land that many are talking about being lost, what a load of silliness, the land has been here for millions of years. It has seen changes both man-made and natural. Once we are gone it will change again. I think putting ourselves and our measly short lives on some sort of pedestal is more than arrogant. We are nothing - minions - in the grand scheme of things. This land will be here forever more and yes it will undergo many many changes, as it has done for the past millions of years.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      I feel your pain. I board my horses at a place with 60 acres. The owner is like 80+. His family use to own like a 1/3 of Newport News, now it's down to just that 60 acres.
                                      He HAS to keep boarders on the property or the city will take the land from him. But when Mr. H dies, the city's going to take the land and turn it into more houses. He gets harassed by them at least twice a year.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Communities are also made by the farmer who willingly sells land to developers. I would hazard a guess that many of the people on this BB live in houses which are less than 10 years old. Even people like myself who live in houses which were built back in the 1800's or earlier. Someone gave up land to build these houses - just because I live in a house which is over 150 years old does not mean that there were no changes to the land. Actually my farm was a forest pre-development, and so was my local town. Horrific eh?
                                        1870, here.

                                        I do think people are taking a very short sighted and selfish view of the world. This land that many are talking about being lost, what a load of silliness, the land has been here for millions of years. It has seen changes both man-made and natural. Once we are gone it will change again. I think putting ourselves and our measly short lives on some sort of pedestal is more than arrogant. We are nothing - minions - in the grand scheme of things. This land will be here forever more and yes it will undergo many many changes, as it has done for the past millions of years.
                                        We owe it to ourselves to make responsible choices for the land, because there's no denying the problems that come from misuse, badly planned "communities" (how can 3500 large tract houses that aren't within half an hour of a basic gas, grocery, and drugstore be considered responsible development?) and overdevelopment. Further, it's very difficult to un-develop land - there's quite a bit of concern regarding urban farming in detroit in regards to the quality/potential contamination of the soil.

                                        No, it's not "lost" per se, but those changes are not always for the better. Too many people take the route of thinking that they're small and thus, can't or won't make a difference. That's how we get these problems in the first place - it adds up.

                                        In my area we would do better to see responsible development instead of what we have now - folks commuting two hours (30-50 miles, likely) in their cars to get to the office, when neighborhoods 10 miles from the city center are severely underutilized and in disrepair.
                                        ---
                                        They're small hearts.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Cloverbarley View Post

                                          I do think people are taking a very short sighted and selfish view of the world. This land that many are talking about being lost, what a load of silliness, the land has been here for millions of years. It has seen changes both man-made and natural. Once we are gone it will change again. I think putting ourselves and our measly short lives on some sort of pedestal is more than arrogant. We are nothing - minions - in the grand scheme of things. This land will be here forever more and yes it will undergo many many changes, as it has done for the past millions of years.
                                          Oh I realize that it won't stop but it doesn't mean that we HAVE TO LIKE IT and this thread IS about a vent. And NO it does matter!
                                          The cue card kid just held up an empty cue card. For a minute there I thought I had lost my sense of humor. --- Red Skelton

                                          Comment

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