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Spinoff - sick friend euthanizing.......

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  • Original Poster

    #41
    Originally posted by mvp View Post
    I think the OP is riled up about a situation that doesn't exist very often-- a person who has made a useful horse just decides to punt rather than find the animal a new spot.
    oh how I wish you were correct. I have worked in the veterinary industry for almost 20 years. We receive weekly calls to euthanize healthy animals. People are lazy. People would even come out and tell you that they are lazy "I just don't have the time or effort to sell/rehome pooky". More often, it is that the animal is suffering from something minor that the owner wants to use as an excuse to euthanize......
    an AQHA foal stepped on by mom. was only going to need some sutures but would have a scar, owner wanted to euth. Wire cut that couldn't be sutured but would need daily cleaning. Abscess (owner thought everyone was wrong and was sure leg was broken).

    It is even worse in small animal...........I currently have, in my home,

    Applesauce: 1 yr JRT. (now 2) She was hit by a car. She had a broken pelvis that healed with cage rest. Owner wanted to euth even though it would be more expensive than the pain meds

    Princess Fiona: 1 yr Rat Terrier. (now 4) Epileptic. Owner presented for euth because they didn't want to medicate daily.

    Princess Sophie: 1yr Chihuahua. (now 6) Presented as a dystocia. Owner refused surgery (not because of $$, but because they said "we don't really like her"). She had had a dead puppy hanging out for over 24 hours and was @ death's door when I got her.

    Pixie Dust: 3yr Chihuahua. Presented unconscious when owner's husband threw her down some stairs. Also had full skin thickness cigar burns. Owner wanted to euth because that was all husband would allow her to spend.

    Eeyore: 20 week Shar Pei/Border Collie mix. (now 9). Presented hit by car. Owner opted to euth because "he was free......I'll just go get another one".


    THere have been many many more that I rehabbed, but didn't keep.

    Sooo, I am a bit touchy about the subject, but truly feel that I practice what I preach. I am willing to take back anything that I have sold. And ask anyone at the clinic that I work at and they will tll you that I have SUCKER stamped on my forehead.............and a very good hubby!
    Holly
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    • #42
      Originally posted by Iron Horse Farm View Post
      I have been trying for over a year to find a giveaway oldie for my children to ride. Craigslist within 100 miles has not had anything broke for free, so I am at a loss as to where all of these unwanted horses are.

      Many of you remember the thread about the two arabs that were dumped at a friend's home when the owner didn't seek medical attention for them. The older one is being rehabbed and already has a home waiting. Soooo, homes are out there. Bearcat, i am afraid to ask, but what happened to your TB mare?
      Free horses are fairly easy. Free horses that you'd trust with your children is quite a bit harder.

      In general, the people who have the horse you want aren't going to offer it for free on Craigslist... because they don't want their nice, saintly horse going to someone who knows nothing about horses, let alone someone who will flip it into an auction. What you need is the friend-of-a-friend free horse, and those are more challenging and maybe not free.

      I have a friend who gets free horses all the time, sometimes quite nice ones. But, people know that she rescues, and they know to call her.

      The horses in the OP are not broke to ride, so they're (I assume) not what you're looking for.
      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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      • #43
        Originally posted by Iron Horse Farm View Post
        oh how I wish you were correct. I have worked in the veterinary industry for almost 20 years. We receive weekly calls to euthanize healthy animals. People are lazy. People would even come out and tell you that they are lazy "I just don't have the time or effort to sell/rehome pooky". More often, it is that the animal is suffering from something minor that the owner wants to use as an excuse to euthanize......
        an AQHA foal stepped on by mom. was only going to need some sutures but would have a scar, owner wanted to euth. Wire cut that couldn't be sutured but would need daily cleaning. Abscess (owner thought everyone was wrong and was sure leg was broken).

        It is even worse in small animal...........I currently have, in my home,

        Applesauce: 1 yr JRT. (now 2) She was hit by a car. She had a broken pelvis that healed with cage rest. Owner wanted to euth even though it would be more expensive than the pain meds

        Princess Fiona: 1 yr Rat Terrier. (now 4) Epileptic. Owner presented for euth because they didn't want to medicate daily.

        Princess Sophie: 1yr Chihuahua. (now 6) Presented as a dystocia. Owner refused surgery (not because of $$, but because they said "we don't really like her"). She had had a dead puppy hanging out for over 24 hours and was @ death's door when I got her.

        Pixie Dust: 3yr Chihuahua. Presented unconscious when owner's husband threw her down some stairs. Also had full skin thickness cigar burns. Owner wanted to euth because that was all husband would allow her to spend.

        Eeyore: 20 week Shar Pei/Border Collie mix. (now 9). Presented hit by car. Owner opted to euth because "he was free......I'll just go get another one".


        THere have been many many more that I rehabbed, but didn't keep.

        Sooo, I am a bit touchy about the subject, but truly feel that I practice what I preach. I am willing to take back anything that I have sold. And ask anyone at the clinic that I work at and they will tll you that I have SUCKER stamped on my forehead.............and a very good hubby!
        Well, the rest of my post was about the people who know enough to make useful horses also being thoughtful about placing them or euthanizing them.

        I should have been more clear, too. I was thinking about the OP, quoted below.

        The question about how people can own horses when bad things could happen (like death) is different from having a Time To Left On Earth prognosis handed to you. I think it's quite rational to plan for your animals in that second situation.

        And killing a daughter rather than have her life the life of a slave? I kinda get it. But that's also an extreme situation faced infrequently by modern horse owners.

        And for all of the small animal examples I see both sides. Was the wife whose husband abused the dog a bad person for accepting the financial limit he imposed? Or was she saving the dog from more? Treating the dog or euthanizing the dog was not going to fix the larger situation. But the decision isn't independent of those circumstances either.

        Since euthanasia isn't the worst thing that can happen to an unwanted animal, I have a hard time thinking they ought to be preserved as a matter of principle. Principles wear thin and are notoriously difficult to enforce.
        The armchair saddler
        Politically Pro-Cat

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        • #44
          No, poltroon, not quite right. 2 not broke to ride, 2 minis, and 2 that I believe were rideable.
          I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
          I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

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          • #45
            I had a thought about the cancer situation which I didn't see anyone else mention. There are moments when you really can't deal emotionally with one more thing. Yes, some people feel this way all the time, but really, when you're undergoing very stressful times, sometimes you can literally feel how thin your sanity is getting. I can see someone facing a serious illness and intensive treatment being unable to cope with any decisions - like evaluating potential homes, shopping the ponies around, or even letting a friend do it for her. It is selfish and wrong to euthanize all 6 horses, but it might be all she can do cope with - a horrendous solution, but one which will relieve her anxiety on that score permanently. Similarly, to the people posting horror tales about how people can be willing to euthanize animals on slight reasons - many of those examples were of owners whose lives were chaotic. Not that it's an excuse, but sometimes it's a reason.

            Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
            Why yes, it would. And then everyone could live out their little god complex fantasies by killing things and still feeling good about it. It's like the mothers that kill their kids because the world is a horrible place.
            That's what I kept thinking - those women who kill their kids, or men who kill their whole families, in some kind of extreme control thing. Not to say that everyone who resorts to euthansia of a salvagable animal is a serial killer, but the more over-the-top cases seem kind of similar.

            Originally posted by Chief2 View Post
            The society in the USA is mired in a disposable headset... the rescues couldn't keep up, so the mantra shifted from 'place it in a home or send it to a rescue', to 'place it in a home, or euthanize it, because we can't keep up'.
            Funny thing is, the humane movement is going the opposite way for dogs, and it's just as problematic. Too many shelters are going into the sanctuary business - providing lifetime care for animals they can't adopt out, resulting in thousands of domestic animal designed to take joy in human companionship living out their lives in cages.

            Comment


            • #46
              Well on to a feel good story from Ireland. My friend had a pony like you describe IHF. She never sold him or leased him but she did lend him out to good families who wanted a schoolmaster for their children. He died 2 years ago being very well cared for in a racehorse trainers yard. And she currently has the 33-35yo pony that taught her kids and a host of other kids how to ride. He was another horse that was passed around on word of mouth.

              This is also a friend who if I was facing this situation, would tell me she could take a few of mine as long as I was happy with 24/7 turnout and I paid for the basics but not board. I mean is this not an option for someone facing life altering situations? It would certainly help with her money sitution. And I know that going over to see them would certainly help my mental mood in dealing with what I would have to to get better.

              Terri
              COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

              "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Iron Horse Farm View Post
                Maybe I'm a bit irritated, because I'm looking for an oldie to teach my kids to ride and several of the people that I have inquired to have said "I didn't think that anyone would want him, so I put him down".
                I'm wondering what vets are doing this. The vets I've dealt with wouldn't do this, I don't think. I know a client in my barn had a similar way of thinking, but due to a chronic lameness and he (the vet) wasn't having it.

                I don't know enough about their vows, but they aren't supposed to do that, are they??

                (hope I didn't dup anyone else...I didn't read all the posts)

                Comment


                • #48
                  Vets who deal with large animals like cows will often have a more economic based view than sport horse vets.

                  Dairy or beef farmers usually don't keep non productive cows around as pets. If they don't go for cheap hamburger they are often euthed
                  I wasn't always a Smurf
                  Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
                  "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                  The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Iron Horse Farm View Post
                    I didn't want to derail the cancer thread, but I do have some questions.............
                    Well I posted on the other thread but in answer to your questions:

                    1. Do I just not get it??
                    You don't. You and me both!

                    How would people ever get horses if everyone put them down instead of selling or rehioming?
                    They wouldn't. But you (and I) don't get it.

                    2. If euthanizing them is the best option to always insure that nothing bad happens (like death?), then why have rescues?
                    Because rescues don't get it!

                    Why not just euth everything?
                    Now there's a plan!

                    WOuldn't that save them all from anything bad ever happening?
                    Yep. Then we could start on women and children and people with disability who are vulnerable!

                    3. Why do people think that they are the only ones that can provide a good home?
                    Because they have an inflated opinion and little real experience.

                    I'd also like to add my own questions though:

                    Why do people think they have a right to own and then kill when it suits them?

                    Why do those sort ever get an animal in the first place?

                    Are those sorts so stupid that they think it's a good thing for the animal being owned by them?

                    Why do so many have bad tempered and badly trained horses that are so difficult to rehome? Why do they seem so proud of that fact?

                    Why do people kill healthy companion, pleasure, hobby animals? Why oh why oh why?!



                    Here that person would be well stuffed because she'd not get a vet to do it. Not a large animal farm vet or an equine vet. Here that would be classed as convenience euthanasia and contrary to code of ethical conduct.
                    Last edited by Thomas_1; Aug. 27, 2010, 09:16 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Maybe it is location dependent

                      I was at a low-end horse dealer's place a few years back, and noticed three elderly equine ladies having a good graze and gossip in a fenced-off corner of his lot.

                      I asked about them, and the dealer told me they are semi-regulars at his place. People buy them as first-ridden for their little kids, and then bring them back as trade-ins once the kid gains enough experience. He says the mares have been in and out of his yard for years.

                      I hesitated to mention this because no doubt it is a very foreign concept to many people on here. But the mares were in good weight and didn't seem any the worse for changing homes every year or so.

                      I couldn't do it. In fact, my 30 yr old came through this very same dealer's yard before I bought him, six years ago, and I couldn't send him back. But where I live, most people who grew up with horses don't think they have an obligation to keep every single horse they ever own for its lifetime.

                      But - these old guys and girls aren't free, obviously, or the dealer couldn't afford to keep cycling them through to their new homes. They are well-broke and gentle, but despite being very high-mileage one would have to pay somewhere around low to mid three figures for one.
                      I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
                        Here that person would be well stuffed because she'd not get a vet to do it. Not a large animal farm vet or an equine vet. Here that would be classed as convenience euthanasia and contrary to code of ethical conduct.
                        Slightly OT, but what do farmers there do with old non productive cows?
                        I wasn't always a Smurf
                        Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
                        "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                        The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by carolprudm View Post
                          Slightly OT, but what do farmers there do with old non productive cows?
                          The sell them as low grade beef animals.

                          Don't get me wrong. Dairy farmers typically know their animals personally and like their animals. Some retire the cows who were extremely productive, figuring that she has earned her life of luxury.

                          Measuring productivity in dairy cattle is a highly refined science. Because margins are slim in that business, dairy farmers keep constant tabs on this and must make decisions about the composition of their herd (as well as feeding and management programs) very carefully.

                          "Herd medicine" is a bit different from the kind of practice equine vets do. But it's not less sophisticated or categorically a whole lot less ethical.
                          The armchair saddler
                          Politically Pro-Cat

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                          • #53
                            Originally posted by mvp View Post
                            The sell them as low grade beef animals.
                            <SNIP>
                            "Herd medicine" is a bit different from the kind of practice equine vets do. But it's not less sophisticated or categorically a whole lot less ethical.
                            JMHO but is sending them to slaughter more ethical than PTS on the farm?

                            Obviously slaughter is more cost effective and less wasteful but it seems that the vet is just giving the job to someone else.
                            I wasn't always a Smurf
                            Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
                            "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                            The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

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                            • #54
                              Originally posted by carolprudm View Post
                              JMHO but is sending them to slaughter more ethical than PTS on the farm?

                              Obviously slaughter is more cost effective and less wasteful but it seems that the vet is just giving the job to someone else.
                              Well, yeah. It's a COW. It's not a pet. If it can't produce milk or baby cows it's food for humans or animals and leather to make products (like, dare I say it, horse tack?) If anything, why would you want to chemically contaminate a carcass so no one gets any benefit from it and it's a hazard to even bury?

                              pAin't Misbehaven--I think that's a rather old-school way of viewing horses, auctions, brokers and sales of 'beginner horses'. It didn't used to be that you were supposed to keep Dobbin forever--you outgrew the pony, you sold it to the little kid up the road to make room for your horse. You need a fancier mount than the Old Gray Mare who started you out? You sell her to the next beginner, or to the broker/sales barn who supplies the beginners in the area. I don't think it's at all a bad system. If the goal is riding, rather than just owning a horse in some capacity, why are you going to keep the unsuitable one, especially if someone else would have a use for it?
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                              • #55
                                Originally posted by danceronice View Post
                                Well, yeah. It's a COW. It's not a pet. If it can't produce milk or baby cows it's food for humans or animals and leather to make products (like, dare I say it, horse tack?) If anything, why would you want to chemically contaminate a carcass so no one gets any benefit from it and it's a hazard to even bury?
                                My comment had to do with the point that the animal was going to end up dead somehow anyway. I don't understand the point of saying OMG, it's not ethical.
                                I wasn't always a Smurf
                                Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
                                "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                                The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

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                                • #56
                                  It's not ethical to kill something in a way that renders the carcass useless, at least from traditional farming standpoints. By that standard, people who think you should chemically euthanize livestock are the unethical ones--they're being wasteful, and that's unethical. You're treating something like a toy that you can throw in a landfill when you're done with it, not a live animal that's part of the food chain. Instead of "recycling", you're taking resources and throwing them away for no good reason.
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                                  • #57
                                    What a difficult thing to discuss. But, you know what...death always is.
                                    Facing death, and worrying about your 'provisions' for those you care for, is another toughy.

                                    For me, I knew...I could never 'afford' more than one. What I consider 'afford', is to be able to provide whatever was needed, no matter what. I think those who have property---it gets much more 'cloudy'---yep, you've got land. yep, you can provide for 'more' than one IF EVERTHING GOES WELL.

                                    But is that really 'affording' them? What if all needed colic surgery? What if one was on expensive treatment/follow up/care for 6 months?

                                    I DO feel for those in a situation they never thought they'd be in. But to say, their choice is to euth, and thats their 'plan', is just cold, and hard to me to accept. Yes, Euth ing is something I can agree with when necessary for the ANIMAL. When its for the person's pocketbook, I don't think thats a 'plan'. It means to me, it was never 'planned' for in the first place.

                                    I still grieve and hope we as a horse community will always come to the assistance of a horse person who, finds themselves in a scenario that is not expected...but the reality is, once you own them, you owe them a plan....don't add more if its not feasible to see ONE thru whatever comes along.

                                    JMHO
                                    ayrabz
                                    "Indecision may or may not be my problem"
                                    --Jimmy Buffett

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                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post



                                      Why do people think they have a right to own and then kill when it suits them?


                                      So I suppose you don't eat any meat or wear/ use leather???
                                      "You'll never see yourself in the mirror with your eyes closed"

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                                      • #59
                                        Nobody could take care of my TB gelding like me nor would anybody understand his quirks, needs and personality. At one point in his life I tried to sell him, and that is when I decided I couldn't bare it if he wasn't taken care of the way he had taught me. That bieng the way it was, I kept him until I felt it was time to euthanize him. That is why I can't buy animals often because I would keep them all. And 1 person can only have so many.

                                        I did have to rehome a dog tho. And it took my over a year to find that perfect home.

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by tabula rashah View Post
                                          So I suppose you don't eat any meat or wear/ use leather???
                                          There's a difference between raising and slaughtering an animal to a purpose and keeping one as a pet/companion and then killing it because you can't trust anyone else to own it. Animals who are slaughtered for meat are being used for a purpose, not thrown like yesterday's newspaper in a house that doesn't recycle or buried in the king's tomb so he can take it to the afterlife with him.
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