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  • Xanthoria
    replied
    Another reason to know your horse’s breeding for sure is genetic problems. Some won’t show up till later in life, so buying an animal whose ID cannot be proven leaves you open to PSSM, HYPP as mentioned before, MH, maybe even shivers and a host of other issues.

    Since sellers are unused to allowing buyer to genetically tear their horses, and the time it takes to test can result in a horse being sold to someone who doesn’t care, pedigree is important.

    Leave a comment:


  • judybigredpony
    replied
    I re sell OTTB and most of the time w/ a gelding there are “NO”. JC Paper forwarded with the horse. The lip tattoo is provenance of who he is...Sometime I can not get a Fillies paper..They are only useful if she is sold as a Broodmare for NON-TB breeding or sold art a Breeding stock auction. The AQHA and WB industry is way more conscious about paper work and transfer of ownership then the JC. It used to be a deterrent to prevent a sold TB from being returned too racing..Now they have Not To Race stamp process.

    Leave a comment:


  • IronwoodFarm
    replied
    While I totally agree that geldings are a breeding dead end, as a breeder, I sure like knowing what happens to horses in my breeding program. My stallion has produced a large number of geldings over the years, so that USDF, USE, or any other performance record of his offspring does matter to me. It is a shame whenever a papered horse is separated from his/her papers.

    Leave a comment:


  • enjoytheride
    replied
    With arabs horses are now DNA typed. However, it's not always easy to get papers from the owner on record. Sometimes they are dead, sometimes there was some sort of money issue and they expect you to pay for the papers, and sometimes they don't want anyone know the horse came from them. With arabs, most arab people want papers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Renn/aissance
    replied
    I purchased my horse "without papers." He is an ISH and I was told his passport was in the hands of the owner, who had moved out of state; I purchased from the horse's trainer, who was representing her as agent. I was unable to reach the owner to get them. I did have his USEF record, which told me what was pertinent for a competition horse, and since he's a gelding and his bloodlines weren't relevant to his value to me, it had no bearing on his sale.

    I do wish I had them. He is special, and I'd love to know what breeding made him. (Somebody once pointed out to me that crossbreds sold out of Ireland to eventing or foxhunting homes in the US are dime a dozen and that he's as likely to be an unrecorded cross between something half Thoroughbred and the neighbor's cob as he is to be by a son of King of Diamonds, or whatever. I don't particularly care, I'd just love to be able to answer the question of "Where can I get a horse with a brain like that" with a little more than "The Irish agent's first name was Paddy and that's all I know." )

    Leave a comment:


  • Moonlitoaks
    replied
    I think it depends on how it happened. If the seller never saw the papers and the horse does his/her job well (like, if the person they bought the horse from was lazy or sketchy) I wouldn't care, as long as I could verify that the horse didn't have any possible genetic issue. For example, I wouldn't buy a QH with lost papers. I would want proof that animal was not a carrier of some pretty nasty genetic issues.

    Now, if the papers were present in some form, but not in the seller's name, I would contact the registry to find the owner listed on the papers. In fact, this happened to me. I bought a registered Morgan from a fool of a man for $250. She was in terrible condition. She was blind in one eye from an untreated injury as well. His name was not on the papers. He claimed to be selling her for his MIL, or something. That poor mare was on her last legs if I didn't take her. I paid the fool, loaded her up and called the registry right away. She was stolen from a lease situation. No charges for anyone, unfortunately, because she had changed hands too many times and the original thieves had a lawyer that claimed she was abandoned property (they had leased the farm and the horse from the owner). All turned out okay. I rehabbed her and she was a nice mare. The owner wasn't in a position to take her back, so they signed her over to me. The registry was fine with that.

    Leave a comment:


  • PonyPenny
    replied
    I was given a horse who’s papers and passport was missing. I knew he was a German Hanoverian as he had a brand, but no chip. My daughter contacted the German Hanoverian Society and they were able to ID him by DNA testing with hair samples, plus pictures of him and his brand. He ended up being three years older, than we were told, but he had fabulous breeding and a show record in Germany before he was imported. It was nice to have his life history. It was like Ancestry for horses.

    Leave a comment:


  • Malda
    replied
    Originally posted by RubyTuesday View Post

    Depends on how much money is involved. I think most people want papers or at the very least, some idea of pedigree if they're going to spend $$$$$ on a horse.
    This. Most horses I've looked at in the four figure range didn't have papers and I was okay with that.

    I've seen horses for sale in the 10-20k range without papers but I would never consider those. Too much money to not be certain about the horse's age and breed.

    btw, I paid 6k for my QH with papers.

    Leave a comment:


  • RubyTuesday
    replied
    Originally posted by joiedevie99 View Post
    I greatly prefer having papers, tattoo, or microchip - because it can confirm age and breeding. That said, I don't show in breed shows where they are strictly required. I wouldn't walk away from an otherwise perfect horse if it lacked papers - especially it was over the age where I might want to show it in an age restricted class.
    I wouldn't walk away but my offer would definitely be reduced, possibly by quite a lot.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mukluk
    replied
    My OTTB has papers but I have never bothered to have them transferred to me. It seems she couldn't care less

    Leave a comment:


  • pAin't_Misbehavin'
    replied
    Originally posted by MsM View Post
    I once owned a QH that "had papers". Except they werent transferred to seller and I was never able to locate owners of record. Didnt really matter as he was a gelding and I wasnt doing QH shows (and before HYPP testing). Always wondered if that was really him...
    I have one of those, too! Supposedly mine was left with Owner's ex-BF's mother to sell. OExBFM gave us a name and a birthdate, that matched up with a horse on All Breed Pedigree - but yeah. I've always wondered.

    I tried contacting previous owners in hopes I could register him, but *crickets*.

    Now, years later, I would probably insist on papers, for all the reasons cited above. And because I'm learning about pedigrees and what QH lines I like and which I don't, so I feel like knowing who the horse is lessens a little bit of the guesswork.

    Leave a comment:


  • WildLittleWren
    replied
    If people do have papers it really frustrates me when people don't send them along with the horse. Papers are useless without the horse (unless you are shady and going to use them for another, similar looking horse, which is just wrong). Recently there was an AQHA mare for sale in our area for $250. Or $1000 with papers. Like really, sell her for $250 towards the slaughter pipeline just to get more money for papers? It makes no sense for me and IMO puts the horse at risk, especially in the lower price brackets.

    However, not having papers has never stopped me from getting a horse. Then again, I only show in small local schooling shows, am not involved in a breed association, or anything similar to that either. I'm pretty good at guesstimating ages from the teeth, and typically I take in rescues anyways, and I am aware of the risk I am taking in regards to age/health/soundness, etc. Papers in those cases don't REALLY matter to me. But irks me to no end are people holding papers hostage for more money. Or hanging onto them to try and use for a different horse, which is an age old trick of a lot of low end dealers.

    Leave a comment:


  • AlexxSays
    replied
    I had no idea my horse was registered and had papers until after I bought him (AQHA and APHA). He was coming from a woman that owned a trail company so we didn’t think he was anything special breeding wise. However, when I brought the check to his previous owner, I was given a file with his registration papers and his vet records, not only did I found out he was actually two years younger than I origionally thought, which is great, but I found out he has some pretty well known quarter horses in his bloodlines, which doesn’t matter to me since he’s a gelding that I’ve turned into a jumper, but I would have had no idea if I wasn’t given his papers and a lot of the western riders around me instantly respect my little dude a lot more when they find out what he is.

    Leave a comment:


  • joiedevie99
    replied
    I greatly prefer having papers, tattoo, or microchip - because it can confirm age and breeding. That said, I don't show in breed shows where they are strictly required. I wouldn't walk away from an otherwise perfect horse if it lacked papers - especially it was over the age where I might want to show it in an age restricted class.

    Leave a comment:


  • findeight
    replied
    Originally posted by SonnysMom View Post
    I have an OTTB gelding. As he indirectly came through ReRun I didn't get the papers as they retain them. I haven't shown him in any TB classes but I registered him with a TIP number. His tattoo was pretty easy to read when I first got him and I have had him microchipped. Since he is a gelding his papers don't matter. Since he is tattooed the lack of papers don't matter if I want to show him in TIP shows/classes.

    That tattoo is as good as the papers as it is positive ID, including foaling date.

    Wanted to add that although have bought already trained, not intended for breed shows or breeding horses without papers, if seller represents it as a registered horse?
    I want those papers in hand and they better have current owner properly listed (and a signed transfer if applicable).

    The term “ believed to be of xxxxx breeding and approx x years old ” is fine as a general description of type but does not replace actual papers or add the same value as actual papers ( or a tattoo) do to the price.

    Leave a comment:


  • Flash44
    replied
    Originally posted by SonnysMom View Post
    I have an OTTB gelding. As he indirectly came through ReRun I didn't get the papers as they retain them. I haven't shown him in any TB classes but I registered him with a TIP number. His tattoo was pretty easy to read when I first got him and I have had him microchipped. Since he is a gelding his papers don't matter. Since he is tattooed the lack of papers don't matter if I want to show him in TIP shows/classes.
    There are a lot of organizations that offer breed classes, and breed organizations that have point programs for people showing in open shows. I have a quarter horse, and the local ranch show circuit does year end breed awards. And the TB thing is huge in my area.

    Leave a comment:


  • RubyTuesday
    replied
    Originally posted by charlieTBD View Post
    I do not think papers or registry are a concern for a riding horse for most people.

    I also think a person trying to sell a horse that is in a registry without the papers is suspicious. Do they own the horse? Why cannot they get a spare copy? I would be concerned to buy a stolen horse or maybe a divorce horse or one who is much older or something. It is easy to get a copy, why have they not?
    Depends on how much money is involved. I think most people want papers or at the very least, some idea of pedigree if they're going to spend $$$$$ on a horse.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabula rashah
    replied
    No a horse doesn't have to be registered for me to purchase it. The lost papers thing is a whole different ballgame. I'm a big believer in one horse/one number, papers belong to the horse and not the owner.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guilherme
    replied
    Originally posted by Alex and Bodie's Mom View Post
    It depends, and yes, I have. How do papers get lost? Well . . .

    My first horse was purchased at one of those seedy auctions - we were stupid and didn't take the papers with us that night, said we'd get them when we picked her up the next day. Magically, the next day, no papers could be found! Happily, the mare was still there . . .

    Alex's JC papers aren't technically 'lost' - I know they're in the house - it's just that they aren't where they should be. You know, in the file cabinet with everyone else's papers.

    Bodie's papers are still with one of his former owners. I think they transferred to the person who owned him before me, but never came to me. Didn't care.

    My sister leased a registered QH mare from a local breeder, to show. Surprise! Maresy was pregnant, and not supposed to be, as she was never turned out with that breeder's stud. It turned out she was already bred when he bought her, and he didn't realize it. With no idea as to the foal's true lineage (and in the days just before DNA testing), he just passed the foal off as one of his stallion's. So, even when a horse does come with papers, there's no guarantee that what they say is true.
    In the old days this was true. But with DNA testing the days of papers fraud (at least on this issue) are coming to a close (and that's a Good Thing).

    G.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alex and Bodie's Mom
    replied
    It depends, and yes, I have. How do papers get lost? Well . . .

    My first horse was purchased at one of those seedy auctions - we were stupid and didn't take the papers with us that night, said we'd get them when we picked her up the next day. Magically, the next day, no papers could be found! Happily, the mare was still there . . .

    Alex's JC papers aren't technically 'lost' - I know they're in the house - it's just that they aren't where they should be. You know, in the file cabinet with everyone else's papers.

    Bodie's papers are still with one of his former owners. I think they transferred to the person who owned him before me, but never came to me. Didn't care.

    My sister leased a registered QH mare from a local breeder, to show. Surprise! Maresy was pregnant, and not supposed to be, as she was never turned out with that breeder's stud. It turned out she was already bred when he bought her, and he didn't realize it. With no idea as to the foal's true lineage (and in the days just before DNA testing), he just passed the foal off as one of his stallion's. So, even when a horse does come with papers, there's no guarantee that what they say is true.

    Leave a comment:

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