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  • #21
    is the horse chipped with a registry or is it chipped by a previous owner?

    I would do a search on the chip, if possible, making sure the horse is as claimed ; breed age sex and markings. Make sure the registry shows the horse is as claimed.

    Lost papers may be replaced by a registry, but you should do diligence and make sure the owner signs a notarized letter stating the paper loss. If possible request the previous to current owner info as well. Try to establish where the papers were lost.

    as everyone else mentioned, papers are not a guarantee of ownership and not needed to show

    _\\]
    -- * > hoopoe
    Procrastinate NOW
    Introverted Since 1957

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    • #22
      If the horse is purportedly registered then "no," at least until that issue is cleared up. One time I bought a registered horse (properly branded and marked) with an excuse of "I can't find the papers." Turns out the papers were in the hands of a former owner in a foreign country as security for a debt. I was able to fix the problem and eventually get the papers. It was a lesson learned.

      When a registered horse is sold without papers the is a reason. Maybe it's benign and maybe it's not. Answer the question before you turn over money or anything of value.

      G.
      Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raa, Uma Paixo

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by clanter View Post
        being a snob we only look at registered stock of a specific breed
        Am I "snobbier"? I am only looking for a Lippitt or 100% Foundation...

        "Oh, sure, you may be able to take down one smurf, but mark my words: You bonk one smurf, you better be ready for a blue wave."---Bucky Katt

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        • #24
          I once bought a 12 yr old with no papers who was actually 19. Took a year of hassle in court to get a partial refund. So you might not “ride the papers” or care about breeding or breed shows, but I bet you DO care if a horse is 7 years older than you thought!

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          • #25
            I do not think papers or registry are a concern for a riding horse for most people.

            I also think a person trying to sell a horse that is in a registry without the papers is suspicious. Do they own the horse? Why cannot they get a spare copy? I would be concerned to buy a stolen horse or maybe a divorce horse or one who is much older or something. It is easy to get a copy, why have they not?

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            • #26
              Originally posted by charlieTBD View Post
              I do not think papers or registry are a concern for a riding horse for most people.

              I also think a person trying to sell a horse that is in a registry without the papers is suspicious. Do they own the horse? Why cannot they get a spare copy? I would be concerned to buy a stolen horse or maybe a divorce horse or one who is much older or something. It is easy to get a copy, why have they not?
              This is what I'm wondering. Who even asks this question unless they think the horse might be being sold without permission in one form or another.

              Obviously many of us have horses without registration papers for one reason or another. I suspect the OP thinks this horse is stolen or being falsely represented.

              In which case - walk away.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by RHdobes563 View Post

                Am I "snobbier"? I am only looking for a Lippitt or 100% Foundation...
                well that is what we have also, just found them (Lippitts and foundation stock) to be easier keepers (less expensive to maintain) and very versatile (requires more tack, but at least you do not need a new horse when you want to do something else)

                With the papers we have a better idea as to just what we are getting ... and we did the breed shows

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                • #28
                  If I was not interested in breed shows, the papers matter a lot less. Still, if they exist, they can add to the value of a horse.

                  Unfortunately a fair number of stock type horses had their papers "lost" due to their HYPP status. I would test any unpapered stock horse.

                  I once owned a QH that "had papers". Except they werent transferred to seller and I was never able to locate owners of record. Didnt really matter as he was a gelding and I wasnt doing QH shows (and before HYPP testing). Always wondered if that was really him...


                  Current Morgan gelding had to have papers redone by the person I bought him from. He had been through a couple of dealer types and his papers still showed his breeder as owner. She sent hair in for DNA and then the association had to lean on the breeder who was reluctant to sign the transfer. Eventually it got done and the papers were in order when I bought him. I did transfer them to me, but I dont know that it will ever matter to me.

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                  • #29
                    As others have already stated for me it would depend on the purpose of the horse. I have done so on a few occasions; but, I always made sure first that the horse I was purchasing with or without papers could be legally sold to me.

                    1. One such horse was supposedly registered but the owner/seller did not have the papers because they had been lost in a fire. It was a story that was easy to verify. Also, the seller had a very good reputation and I knew her as an acquaintance prior to the sale. This gave me some 'comfort'. The mare was intended for my daughter as a show mount but was to later be used for breeding. In my case I owned the stallion and the registry is not one to care a rat's behind what the 'other half' is in order to paper/register it has a half-bred. I did pursue getting the papers which was from a breed registry in another country. Ironically I did not pursue getting the mare registered in the states. There would have been no gain for all the expense I would have incurred since I never have shown in that registry's breed shows and though I did/do compete for all-breed awards this mare was not going to be used for that. The purchase turned out to be one of the best ones I ever made.

                    2. I purchased a gelding for far more than he was worth at the time of purchase. He was a 5 year old stallion that had wandered off the Navajo reservation with his band of mares. He had no papers but he was branded and microchipped. That alone gave me all the information I needed for verification. He too has turned out to be the best money ever spent. He is the absolute best trail horse I've had to date and I've competed in competitive trail competitions with registered stock including the mare noted above. She too was awesome on the trail but this guy is beyond none the safest thing going.

                    Now having said all that there are those I certainly would not pursue and have been offered - some registered but without papers and some with no known backgrounds. As stated for each of us, the reason to purchase is and should always be based on our list of definite musts which should in turn be based on intended use. I personally, as a former breeder, feel strongly that papers are important. While I just gave examples where an individual horse's value [to me] didn't depend solely on papers, I know that outside of my care, papers give most horses at least some chance of a softer landing though admittedly no guarantee.
                    Ranch of Last Resort

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                    • #30
                      I have an OTTB gelding. As he indirectly came through ReRun I didn't get the papers as they retain them. I haven't shown him in any TB classes but I registered him with a TIP number. His tattoo was pretty easy to read when I first got him and I have had him microchipped. Since he is a gelding his papers don't matter. Since he is tattooed the lack of papers don't matter if I want to show him in TIP shows/classes.
                      Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community. (Tidy Rabbit)

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                      • #31
                        I would wonder whether the horse was stolen.
                        Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Papers don't matter to me.

                          What does matter is the circumstances around why there are no papers with a supposedly registered horse. That would be my deciding factor in the purchase.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            It depends, and yes, I have. How do papers get lost? Well . . .

                            My first horse was purchased at one of those seedy auctions - we were stupid and didn't take the papers with us that night, said we'd get them when we picked her up the next day. Magically, the next day, no papers could be found! Happily, the mare was still there . . .

                            Alex's JC papers aren't technically 'lost' - I know they're in the house - it's just that they aren't where they should be. You know, in the file cabinet with everyone else's papers.

                            Bodie's papers are still with one of his former owners. I think they transferred to the person who owned him before me, but never came to me. Didn't care.

                            My sister leased a registered QH mare from a local breeder, to show. Surprise! Maresy was pregnant, and not supposed to be, as she was never turned out with that breeder's stud. It turned out she was already bred when he bought her, and he didn't realize it. With no idea as to the foal's true lineage (and in the days just before DNA testing), he just passed the foal off as one of his stallion's. So, even when a horse does come with papers, there's no guarantee that what they say is true.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Alex and Bodie's Mom View Post
                              It depends, and yes, I have. How do papers get lost? Well . . .

                              My first horse was purchased at one of those seedy auctions - we were stupid and didn't take the papers with us that night, said we'd get them when we picked her up the next day. Magically, the next day, no papers could be found! Happily, the mare was still there . . .

                              Alex's JC papers aren't technically 'lost' - I know they're in the house - it's just that they aren't where they should be. You know, in the file cabinet with everyone else's papers.

                              Bodie's papers are still with one of his former owners. I think they transferred to the person who owned him before me, but never came to me. Didn't care.

                              My sister leased a registered QH mare from a local breeder, to show. Surprise! Maresy was pregnant, and not supposed to be, as she was never turned out with that breeder's stud. It turned out she was already bred when he bought her, and he didn't realize it. With no idea as to the foal's true lineage (and in the days just before DNA testing), he just passed the foal off as one of his stallion's. So, even when a horse does come with papers, there's no guarantee that what they say is true.
                              In the old days this was true. But with DNA testing the days of papers fraud (at least on this issue) are coming to a close (and that's a Good Thing).

                              G.
                              Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raa, Uma Paixo

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                No a horse doesn't have to be registered for me to purchase it. The lost papers thing is a whole different ballgame. I'm a big believer in one horse/one number, papers belong to the horse and not the owner.
                                Wouldst thou like the taste of butter and pretty dress? Wouldst thou like to live deliciously?

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by charlieTBD View Post
                                  I do not think papers or registry are a concern for a riding horse for most people.

                                  I also think a person trying to sell a horse that is in a registry without the papers is suspicious. Do they own the horse? Why cannot they get a spare copy? I would be concerned to buy a stolen horse or maybe a divorce horse or one who is much older or something. It is easy to get a copy, why have they not?
                                  Depends on how much money is involved. I think most people want papers or at the very least, some idea of pedigree if they're going to spend $$$$$ on a horse.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by SonnysMom View Post
                                    I have an OTTB gelding. As he indirectly came through ReRun I didn't get the papers as they retain them. I haven't shown him in any TB classes but I registered him with a TIP number. His tattoo was pretty easy to read when I first got him and I have had him microchipped. Since he is a gelding his papers don't matter. Since he is tattooed the lack of papers don't matter if I want to show him in TIP shows/classes.
                                    There are a lot of organizations that offer breed classes, and breed organizations that have point programs for people showing in open shows. I have a quarter horse, and the local ranch show circuit does year end breed awards. And the TB thing is huge in my area.
                                    Man plans. God laughs.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by SonnysMom View Post
                                      I have an OTTB gelding. As he indirectly came through ReRun I didn't get the papers as they retain them. I haven't shown him in any TB classes but I registered him with a TIP number. His tattoo was pretty easy to read when I first got him and I have had him microchipped. Since he is a gelding his papers don't matter. Since he is tattooed the lack of papers don't matter if I want to show him in TIP shows/classes.

                                      That tattoo is as good as the papers as it is positive ID, including foaling date.

                                      Wanted to add that although have bought already trained, not intended for breed shows or breeding horses without papers, if seller represents it as a registered horse?
                                      I want those papers in hand and they better have current owner properly listed (and a signed transfer if applicable).

                                      The term “ believed to be of xxxxx breeding and approx x years old ” is fine as a general description of type but does not replace actual papers or add the same value as actual papers ( or a tattoo) do to the price.

                                      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        I greatly prefer having papers, tattoo, or microchip - because it can confirm age and breeding. That said, I don't show in breed shows where they are strictly required. I wouldn't walk away from an otherwise perfect horse if it lacked papers - especially it was over the age where I might want to show it in an age restricted class.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          I had no idea my horse was registered and had papers until after I bought him (AQHA and APHA). He was coming from a woman that owned a trail company so we didn’t think he was anything special breeding wise. However, when I brought the check to his previous owner, I was given a file with his registration papers and his vet records, not only did I found out he was actually two years younger than I origionally thought, which is great, but I found out he has some pretty well known quarter horses in his bloodlines, which doesn’t matter to me since he’s a gelding that I’ve turned into a jumper, but I would have had no idea if I wasn’t given his papers and a lot of the western riders around me instantly respect my little dude a lot more when they find out what he is.

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