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Animal Communicator

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  • #81
    Originally posted by x-halt-salute View Post

    Given how you communicate with other humans, I'm growing less likely to trust your instincts about animal communication.

    I described my experience and how it impacted my beliefs. When you pressed me to characterize my experience as something exceptional, I asked you to clarify how I would be able to discern an exceptional hoax from an authentic communicator. I'm still curious.

    People post about unsatisfactory trainer experiences all the time. And yet, the masses haven't lost faith in the ability of people to train horses. Have you ever thought about why the two topics differ?

    When sharing an experience and perspective engenders gatekeeping responses, it's hard to take it as an invitation to open one's mind. If you want to interpret my experience, beliefs, and questions as denigration of the entirety of animal communication, that's your choice. If you think that disagreement is the same thing is ridicule, well, then, good luck out there on the interwebs, stranger.
    How do I discern what's real from a hoax? This is not a simple answer. Well, it starts with comparing animal body language to info received sometimes. Comparing things that are known facts with info from the AC. Also, no AC who valued her rep would tell me any of the goofy stuff I've been hearing from other skeptics on COTH, asking for special colored blankets and junky stuff. (There was another poster who told me some silliness like that.) Another poster also told me an AC gave her unsolicited advice, another red flag. Animal communication is not something that people just throw around at other people. It's like giving unsolicited child rearing advice to people at Walmart. Just weird with questionable judgment. Some people need to feel special... I don't know. You see it on Facebook more often than not. Sorta creepy. The animal communicators I've dealt with have had a professional demeanor.

    The first time I heard of Bea Lydecker was when I moved to my house and I started riding with a neighbor. She told me of a group session that she'd witnessed and stories from that were very intriguing. There was one story that was sort of pathetic that drew me in. A woman had a mare that she trained and showed in various disciplines. The mare was given a lot of attention. The woman decided that she wanted to breed the mare, keep the baby and sell the mare. The mare was bred but lost the baby. When she communicated to Bea she "told" her she didn't want to be sold, she loved her owner and didn't want to have a baby to replace her. I know you people who don't believe horses can love are going to be laughing your a$$es off now.... but it seemed legit. Still does. I believe all animals can feel love, maybe not like human love, but their own versions. Another story I recall was there was a cat that told its owner that when their stepson came over he would torture the cat when no one else was around... now maybe torturing is not exactly it, but probably being mean to the cat, pulling his tail or doing mean boy things. This was in 1980s. I think there might have been more stories, but those are the only 2 I recall.

    I would have liked to see Bea in action then, set up a group reading thing with a bunch of people and their animals out of pure curiosity, but could not find her.

    It wasn't until years later when the internet opened up and I got on a veterinary chat group that a vet put me in contact with Bea. At that time we had adopted a dog who was constantly attacking another one of our dogs. We tried everything to get this female to stop attacking the male. Nothing worked. We were getting bitten by accident... so I thought maybe the dog could be reasoned with by an animal communicator, so I sought Bea out. Turns out it doesn't work that way. No one can really "tell" a dog to cut behavior out. We ended up getting that dog a shock collar and shocking her every time she ran at the male. But it did give me my first experience with Bea.

    That was sort of funny, because when we asked Britta through Bea why she hated Haus, she said "He's alright". They can be like a little kid. In another reading with a friend's dog, he was confronted about always biting people and he said"I don't bite anyone" When they know something is bad and you don't want them to do it, they are like little kids. "I didn't do it" Their minds are very simplistic.

    Well, Bea talked to all our dogs and it was all stuff we knew, so that's one thing I can add, if you know your animals well you generally don't learn much from an animal communicator. Maybe it' ends up merely cute trivia.

    We adopt our dogs as adults and I'm always curious about their past homes. I'll say this, you can tell experiences dogs have had by their behavior, and the back stories that Bea gave me on all the dogs we have gotten through the years has mirrored their behaviors. The beaten ones, the neglected ones... I don't tell her anything beforehand. I let her tell me.

    I think some people have proclivity to communicate with animals, some have more than others. I have a little with my own. Probably most prople do, they just don't realize they are doing it. One time, when I was trying to keep the big dogs off the sofa, (I have since given up) I would find Zeus curled up on it and I would scold him off. One time when I scolded him off I said "why are you sleeping there when you know I don't want you there" and I got the communication from him "the other dog did." And it was true, years earlier my ex-husband's small terrier was allowed on the furniture and his smell was probably still there. So i know communication with animals is do-able, I"m just not gifted enough to do it all the time. I wish I could.

    These things happen and each one solidifies my belief that they can be nothing but real communications... and I have only skimmed the surface of these stories through the years here.

    However, since animal communicators are as common as snow in July for most other people, they are the most misrepresented and misunderstood group of people there are in my POV, at least on COTH it appears that way. Therefore, that's why people who have one bad experience don't seek another AC. It isn't as necessary as a horse trainer or dog trainer... maybe some people think of it as a vanity silly thing to do. Or they think we who want to know more, want to hold conversations and long walks on the beach with our animals... when just for me, i like to know them better... they are horses and dogs, not kids, they are not going to win awards for smarts or become little people to me. I call them my kids jokingly. This last reading with Lydia I shared with the link here was for fun though and I adore group readings .... they are the most fun. I wasn't at that one but I saw and enjoyed many of the other taped readings the other people at the ranch had with Lydia.

    sitting tapping with the phone is exhausting... I hope you appreciate my attempt at clarification here, because starting out with an insult wasn't the greatest way for you to start asking questions either.

    Comment


    • #82
      Originally posted by Tyrus' Mom View Post

      How do I discern what's real from a hoax? This is not a simple answer. Well, it starts with comparing animal body language to info received sometimes. Comparing things that are known facts with info from the AC. Also, no AC who valued her rep would tell me any of the goofy stuff I've been hearing from other skeptics on COTH, asking for special colored blankets and junky stuff. (There was another poster who told me some silliness like that.) Another poster also told me an AC gave her unsolicited advice, another red flag. Animal communication is not something that people just throw around at other people. It's like giving unsolicited child rearing advice to people at Walmart. Just weird with questionable judgment. Some people need to feel special... I don't know. You see it on Facebook more often than not. Sorta creepy. The animal communicators I've dealt with have had a professional demeanor.
      There was one story that was sort of pathetic that drew me in. A woman had a mare that she trained and showed in various disciplines. The mare was given a lot of attention. The woman decided that she wanted to breed the mare, keep the baby and sell the mare. The mare was bred but lost the baby. When she communicated to Bea she "told" her she didn't want to be sold, she loved her owner and didn't want to have a baby to replace her. I know you people who don't believe horses can love are going to be laughing your a$$es off now.... but it seemed legit. Still does.
      I can't tell if you are saying that the AC said that the mare spontaneously aborted her foal ( "lost the baby") because she did not want to be sold, or that the AC said that the mare who was say, checked at 60 days and found to be no longer in foal, didn't want to be sold.

      I don't know at what point in gestation you consider that a mare has "lost the baby".

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by Frostbitten View Post
        NoSuchPerson, if the researcher you mentioned only “felt” the research on blanket choice wasn’t empirical, then that wasn’t very empirical of her.😊 it would be interesting to have the study replicated for sure. Clever Hans must be some sort of record holder, he’s been trotted out so often to back up arguments about cued responses, he must be lame in all four by now. Not that it’s not a good example, just a bit tired from overuse.
        I always thought of Truth and Veracity as sort of Superman's older twin brothers. By definition they can't ever be "tired from overuse."

        Unless, of course, you're seeking to deceive. They you use every trick you can to obscure Truth and Veracity. Including personal slanders!!!

        The point is that horses, being prey animals, are exquisitely tuned to their environments and if they see what their reptilian brain identifies as a predator then they will be off the to races, quite literally. Most folks who have ridden for any length of time KNOW this from their own, personal experience. They also KNOW that this tendency can be managed to a point by good quality training and acclimation. But they KNOW that any horse, any time, can have a "Monday." That's why they prepare themselves, by good training, to deal with it WHEN it happens.

        Horses, being domestic animals, have likely developed a level of "instinct" when dealing with humans. We are the source of Good Things (like food, grooming, predator removal, etc.). Over the 10,000 years or so of domestication the ones that were the most successful in their relations with humans got bred and thus this "ability" was passed on. It's very possible that horses WANT to please humans and might just figure out ways to do it that bring rewards to them and muck up scientific experiments. Not because it's "planned" in the sense of malicious doctoring of data (like the hawkers of the theory that vaccination causes autism or that living under an electric power line causes birth defects) but because it's an open door that leads to food and, being horses, they took it.

        There is NO evidence "extra-physical" communication in this process. Adding claims of such are, by definition, disingenuous and almost ALWAYS driven by some human need (usually financial). IIRC, Clever Hans made his owner a bunch of money. That why the owner trained him to do what he did. He was the prop in a "magic act." If he were around today he'd be performing in some show in Vegas.

        IMO the real danger in these claims of "magic" solutions to problems is that they lead the humans to abandon the physical reality of the horse and instead move to the fantasy world of the human. And drag the horse with them. The human is now more comfortable. The horse is far more vulnerable to mis-handling and that can lead directly to injury to both human and horse. Put another way, it's one expressway to abuse and neglect.

        G.
        Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raa, Uma Paixo

        Comment


        • #84
          well if Animal Communication was real I am pretty sure the government would have been taxing it by now
          Not responsible for typographical errors.

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by Guilherme View Post

            ... IMO the real danger in these claims of "magic" solutions to problems is that they lead the humans to abandon the physical reality of the horse and instead move to the fantasy world of the human. And drag the horse with them. The human is now more comfortable. The horse is far more vulnerable to mis-handling and that can lead directly to injury to both human and horse. Put another way, it's one expressway to abuse and neglect.

            G.
            Point for the other side. I never thought of this.
            One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
            William Shakespeare

            Comment


            • #86
              Originally posted by skydy View Post

              I can't tell if you are saying that the AC said that the mare spontaneously aborted her foal ( "lost the baby") because she did not want to be sold, or that the AC said that the mare who was say, checked at 60 days and found to be no longer in foal, didn't want to be sold.

              I don't know at what point in gestation you consider that a mare has "lost the baby".
              This was 1980s. I don't have perfect recollection of the story. The AC did not tell me the story, the neighbor/friend did. I think the mare played a part in losing the baby. I have no idea in what part of the gestation she lost the baby. I do remember my friend telling me they helped the owner find a place to bury it. So I assume it was later in the gestation than sooner.

              It was not my mare or foal.
              Last edited by Tyrus' Mom; Jul. 28, 2019, 12:24 PM.

              Comment


              • #87
                Guilherme, if you reread my post, you will see we are in agreement. I would love to see the blanket choice study repeated because it does raise a lot of questions. I get that you believe there was cuing involved to get the result but would like to see more science involved in debunking a study done by, dare I say it, scientists. And yes, I do know who Clever Hans was, and realize why he is used so often to back up science-based arguments. If he were around today he would be wearing sequins and performing with white tigers. My point was that it would be nice to have another, or other, examples because he’s been the gold standard for so long.
                Frost Bite Falls

                Comment


                • #88
                  Originally posted by Frostbitten View Post
                  NoSuchPerson, if the researcher you mentioned only “felt” the research on blanket choice wasn’t empirical, then that wasn’t very empirical of her.😊 it would be interesting to have the study replicated for sure. Clever Hans must be some sort of record holder, he’s been trotted out so often to back up arguments about cued responses, he must be lame in all four by now. Not that it’s not a good example, just a bit tired from overuse.
                  Wow. You're being a little nit pickey there, aren't you? And I don't really understand how you think a scientist expressing an opinion on someone else's study somehow lacks validity because it's not "empirical?" That doesn't even make any sense.

                  Reading other scientists' studies and and stating my opinions of the research is something that's part of my job. It's part of peer review, it's part of scientific discourse, it's part of the scientific process.

                  And Clever Hans is cited so frequently precisely because it's such an excellent example. What are we supposed to do? Say, "Oh, well, yeah, this is the best most well-documented example of this, but I better not mention it because it's just so tired from overuse?" That's crazy.
                  "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                  that's even remotely true."

                  Homer Simpson

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    [QUOTE=Guilherme;n10440512

                    IMO the real danger in these claims of "magic" solutions to problems is that they lead the humans to abandon the physical reality of the horse and instead QA q move to the fantasy world of the human. And drag the horse with them. The human is now more comfortable. The horse is far more vulnerable to mis-handling and that can lead directly to injury to both human and horse. Put another way, it's one expressway to abuse and neglect.

                    G.[/QUOTE]
                    Interesting that you should assume ACs recommend "magic" solutions. In all my sessions over the years I've not had any solutions suggested to me, magical or otherwise. I have gotten info. The last one did give me a chiropractic thing I could do with my horse that was called a tail stretch. My friend taught me it later. I would hardly call it magic.

                    Everyone, vets, chiropractors, new agers, ACs can give good and bad advice. No one is infallible.

                    Did you read the story in this thread about Atlas. That sound like an incredible healing experience for both owner and dog. (Thank you for sharing - I would look up your name, but on a phone that is difficult to navigate and read msgs and get back to my own so I'm not as effective communicating as I'd like to be).

                    An AC is not a veterinary replacement. An AC is there for augmenting knowledge about an animal. In the cases where vets are having trouble diagnosing an AC can be helpful in pinpointing an area since they tie in with the animal's body and feel the affected area in their own.

                    Another story: My brother in law was dying from metastatic cancer and had gotten to a place where it sounded like he wanted to tell my husband something but could not verbalize. My husband asked me to see if Bea could find out more. It's too personal to go into further, but she knew things about him she couldn't have known otherwise, or guessed in a million years. She did this for no fee, she gained nothing but the knowledge she was doing good. A good deed.

                    For those of you who say it's all about the money, I'm sorry you are so jaded and have this terrible outlook about the human race. For some of us, and I would say this about all who have shared their stories here, we are enduring ridicule and every manner of explanation thrown at us as if we don't understand basic horse responses (really.... you think I don't know that horses are prey animals???) and common sense.... a bunch of dumb gullible bunnies....we are enduring this barrage of insults, putting ourselves out there to share because we want you to know of the good these people can do.

                    When I've tried to contribute on COTH its not about anything but contributing to the good of a situation. I would say good intentions are on both sides, but I'm not sure they are understood as such by the deniers.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by Tyrus' Mom View Post
                      Interesting that you should assume ACs recommend "magic" solutions. In all my sessions over the years I've not had any solutions suggested to me, magical or otherwise. I have gotten info. The last one did give me a chiropractic thing I could do with my horse that was called a tail stretch. My friend taught me it later. I would hardly call it magic.

                      Everyone, vets, chiropractors, new agers, ACs can give good and bad advice. No one is infallible.

                      Did you read the story in this thread about Atlas. That sound like an incredible healing experience for both owner and dog. (Thank you for sharing - I would look up your name, but on a phone that is difficult to navigate and read msgs and get back to my own so I'm not as effective communicating as I'd like to be).

                      An AC is not a veterinary replacement. An AC is there for augmenting knowledge about an animal. In the cases where vets are having trouble diagnosing an AC can be helpful in pinpointing an area since they tie in with the animal's body and feel the affected area in their own.

                      Another story: My brother in law was dying from metastatic cancer and had gotten to a place where it sounded like he wanted to tell my husband something but could not verbalize. My husband asked me to see if Bea could find out more. It's too personal to go into further, but she knew things about him she couldn't have known otherwise, or guessed in a million years. She did this for no fee, she gained nothing but the knowledge she was doing good. A good deed.

                      For those of you who say it's all about the money,I'm sorry you are so jaded and have this terrible outlook about the human race. For some of us, and I would say this about all who have shared their stories here, we are enduring ridicule and every manner of explanation thrown at us as if we don't understand basic horse responses (really.... you think I don't know that horses are prey animals???) and common sense.... a bunch of dumb gullible bunnies....we are enduring this barrage of insults, putting ourselves out there to share because we want you to know of the good these people can do.
                      When I've tried to contribute on COTH its not about anything but contributing to the good of a situation. I would say good intentions are on both sides, but I'm not sure they are understood as such by the deniers.
                      On the other hand, think if someone comes here and tell us how well, say, a TT bit is working for their horse, plenty will answer that maybe so, but in general, there are questions about how good such bits are because of how they work in a horse's mouth and their lack of appropriate balance and inconsistent signaling that goes along with the mechanics of such bits.

                      Do you then think the poster that is having good luck with a TT is going to say:

                      ---" ...I'm sorry you are so jaded and have this terrible outlook about the human race. For some of us, and I would say this about all who have shared their stories here, we are enduring ridicule and every manner of explanation thrown at us as if we don't understand basic horse responses (really.... you think I don't know that horses are prey animals???) and common sense.... a bunch of dumb gullible bunnies....we are enduring this barrage of insults, putting ourselves out there to share because we want you to know of the good these people can do."---

                      ... or something like that, bashing those that are just telling what they know about the TT, here about animal communicators?

                      When someone presents something, like animal communication and their stories, on a thread where horses are discussed, well, there will be discussion and side tracks to the topic and information shared from both sides, some saying how much they enjoy hearing animal communicator's stories about what they read in their horses, just as others will have questions about how much of those stories really make sense, horses being horses, as the horses we know them to be.

                      One example, horse's eyes have a certain inherent anatomy and physiology that determines how and what they see.
                      When an animal communicator is talking about a horse telling it a horse prefers this color thing over another, colors we know from what we know of a horse's eye they can't tell apart, we already should be questioning that reading.
                      Maybe horses by some magic can tell those colors apart, but then, invoking the magic of reading animals to what they see that is not physically demonstrable is double questionable.

                      Some posters are trying to explain why animal communicators and their stories, as presented, are questionable and should be able to question such, as much as those that believe in animal communicators can insist to them it makes sense.

                      To only hear what those that choose to believe animal communicators are great at reading animal's thoughts only, no one question our choice, you are a meany if you do?
                      Freedom to speak your mind has to be for everyone, or it is not freedom any more, including what you choose to post on open, public forums.

                      If your horse goes well for you in a TT, why not use it anyway, now wiser with more information about bits and how they work, or with that added information, information that will also help everyone else that is reading, this being a public, open forum, double check how that TT is working for you?
                      If your animal communication beliefs work for you, that others have questions should be of note, but you know what you believe and now you just have more to go by to support or question those beliefs.
                      Which should only help do a better job of caring for our horses, just being the wonderful horses they are, magic or not.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Bluey you were one of the people who acted as though these people were just in it for the money. I was trying to illustrate that wasn't the case with both the Atlas story and the Brother-in-law story. Your analogy is not the same.

                        None of the ACs I know are living in the lap of luxury because of their profession, in fact.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Originally posted by Tyrus' Mom View Post
                          Bluey you were one of the people who acted as though these people were just in it for the money. I was trying to illustrate that wasn't the case with both the Atlas story and the BIL story. Your analogy is not the same.
                          Hmm, maybe it came across as such, since making money is part of so much we may do, if applicable, but didn't know that was really relevant to the discussion, here if animal communication as presented is indeed possible or even probable.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            As far as colors, that was a weird one I was saying was a red flag where I would question the authenticity of a person calling themselves a communicator. I think you are mixing up posts with someone else.

                            Truthfully I don't understand how horses know months or years.... but in a recent reading on a fellow boarder the horse told the communicator he had ulcers for 3 years and the owner was astounded and said it was correct. Said "how did you know that?"



                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Bluey you are free to disbelieve, but also free to not keep discounting every word I say as well.... it goes both ways. I can agree to disagree with anyone. I got involved so deeply in this thread to be of help to animals, not to try to bend steel.

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Originally posted by Tyrus' Mom View Post
                                Interesting that you should assume ACs recommend "magic" solutions. In all my sessions over the years I've not had any solutions suggested to me, magical or otherwise. I have gotten info. The last one did give me a chiropractic thing I could do with my horse that was called a tail stretch. My friend taught me it later. I would hardly call it magic.

                                When you leave the world of physical reality you move to some other world. What to call it? That's a "rose by any other name" problem.

                                Everyone, vets, chiropractors, new agers, ACs can give good and bad advice. No one is infallible.

                                True enough. And when they recommend leaving the physical world for the fantasy one...?

                                Did you read the story in this thread about Atlas. That sound like an incredible healing experience for both owner and dog. (Thank you for sharing - I would look up your name, but on a phone that is difficult to navigate and read msgs and get back to my own so I'm not as effective communicating as I'd like to be).

                                Anecdote is not data.

                                An AC is not a veterinary replacement. An AC is there for augmenting knowledge about an animal. In the cases where vets are having trouble diagnosing an AC can be helpful in pinpointing an area since they tie in with the animal's body and feel the affected area in their own.

                                So they claim.

                                Another story: My brother in law was dying from metastatic cancer and had gotten to a place where it sounded like he wanted to tell my husband something but could not verbalize. My husband asked me to see if Bea could find out more. It's too personal to go into further, but she knew things about him she couldn't have known otherwise, or guessed in a million years. She did this for no fee, she gained nothing but the knowledge she was doing good. A good deed.

                                The plural of anecdote is not data.

                                For those of you who say it's all about the money, I'm sorry you are so jaded and have this terrible outlook about the human race. For some of us, and I would say this about all who have shared their stories here, we are enduring ridicule and every manner of explanation thrown at us as if we don't understand basic horse responses (really.... you think I don't know that horses are prey animals???) and common sense.... a bunch of dumb gullible bunnies....we are enduring this barrage of insults, putting ourselves out there to share because we want you to know of the good these people can
                                do.

                                I think you've demonstrated a world view that has caused incredible harm over the history of the human race.

                                When I've tried to contribute on COTH its not about anything but contributing to the good of a situation. I would say good intentions are on both sides, but I'm not sure they are understood as such by the deniers.
                                No horse, human, or any other creature was ever cured of a malady or injury by the application of "good intentions." Indeed, I think the old saying is that such are pavement on the road to Hell. Indeed, a British Prime Minister of the 1930s relied on presumed "good intentions." How did that work out?

                                When there is no "there" there no good comes from pretending otherwise.

                                G.
                                Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raa, Uma Paixo

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                                • #96
                                  Whatever.
                                  I am in a place where I am unable to sit with my head down typing, but everyone is entitled to an opinion.

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                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by Tyrus' Mom View Post
                                    Whatever.
                                    I am in a place where I am unable to sit with my head down typing, but everyone is entitled to an opinion.
                                    True. But no one is entitled to their own facts.

                                    G.
                                    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raa, Uma Paixo

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                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by Guilherme View Post

                                      True. But no one is entitled to their own facts.

                                      G.
                                      What is factual is open to interpretation. There was a time when the facts were thought to be that the solar system revolved around the earth. We know that is not the case. So it goes....

                                      My road to hell is having to put an animal to sleep and deciding when the right time is. ACs have been invaluable in helping with that. Rotties are notorious for stoicism. I do not want any of my animals to suffer needlessly because of my own inability to gauge their comfort level when ill.

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                                      • #99
                                        While I do believe that some humans are either naturally gifted at or otherwise educated to read body language and emotions from other living creatures, no, I don't buy that animals are having perfectly understandable conversations in English with Animal Communicators. I may joke around that my mare is constantly shouting at me to feed her more cookies or that she swears like a sailor every time I braid her for a dressage test but she's not actually doing those things or telepathically communicating to me in perfect English. It's just me anthropomorphizing her.

                                        My career outside of horses requires a very well-functioning internal bullshit-detector. I've gotten very, very good at figuring out when people are lying, telling half-truths, or otherwise manipulating a true fact to get their desired results. I think it's ultimately very similar to what psychics and animal communicators actually do, but there's no magic or special superpowers or any of that crap that they want you to believe they have. It's just a lot of attention to finer details and an understanding of how behaviors and emotions frequently work together. And when we want something to be true, like a magical ability to have verbal conversations with animals, we'll jump through all sorts of mental hoops to justify the belief in our own minds. This makes it very easy for psychics and animal communicators to successfully con people. We want it to be true, and the human mind is powerful enough to trick you into believing there's evidence it's true.

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                                        • It seems pretty simple to me. Your own personal experience is the authenticity determinant.

                                          I have experienced animals communicating, through words and pictures, so I know it does happen. Can I explain how? No, of course not. Does it matter whether anyone believes me? Not one bit.

                                          My experiences helped the situation overall and that is what mattered. So what of the story behind it, doesn't matter.

                                          Much of the world cannot be explained, and there are plenty of different perspectives on just about everything. That's why the opinions of others are interesting to me and that's as far as they go.

                                          I am glad we have so many colorful characters on this forum, such a fun and intelligent group of people that can constructively disagree over just about anything.

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