Stallion Spotlight

0201171029b-1

Real Estate Spotlight

sycamore barn and garage
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Colour Genetics UK

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Colour Genetics UK

    I'm wondering if someone can explain the base colours and dilutions, also telling me the phenotypes of each. I'm not clued up on any of this, hense asking.
    Are certain colours only certified in certain countries? Or at least for specific breeds as I am aware that say a Shire, can not be accepted in Chestnut colours in the UK.

  • #2
    There are two base colors: red and black. Everything else is a modification layered on top of those.

    There are different dilution genes (for example, one copy of cream on a red base produces a palomino, two copies on a red base produce a cremello).

    There's a lot of information on this on the internet; and breed standards on their individual websites.

    Start Here:
    https://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine...olor/Index.asp
    Veni vidi vici. With a paint pony, nonetheless.

    Comment


    • #3
      The link Arelle posted above is a great place to start.

      The problem is that "color genetics, ready set go!" is such a broad topic that it's really hard to figure out where to begin and what direction to take things in.

      Another component to this you actually vaguely touch on, I think - certain colors aren't acceptable in certain breeds (or simply aren't represented). Depending on where the mutation was first introduced and what breeds/registries you are looking at, there is a limited (or no) chance for those genetics to get introduced to other breeds of horses. Old closed registries can be some of the most limited color-wise due to the lack of accessibility to introduce those "new" colors (the mutations) into the genetic pool.

      Comment


      • #4
        Various registries block various colors. Sometimes this is because that color gene really does not exist in the breed (no creme dilutes in purebred Arabians) and sometimes it is a mistaken idea that it doesn't (Quarter Horse excluding pintos) and sometimes it's an effort to shape the breed. Most registries predate modern genetic knowledge and can be based on false assumptions about color genetics.

        A registry where all the horses are the same color and very phenotypically similar like Haflinger or Friesian must have a very small genetic pool.

        For whatever reason, stock type horses and feral horses in the Western USA have a high percentage of "modifier" genes like creme and dun, as well as several different pinto patterns and appaloosa (which is a breed) and also roan. And silver bay in Rocky Mountain gaited horses!

        So palomino, buckskin, red dun, grulla, perlino and cremello, dunalino, and blue roans and red roans, plus pintos and Appaloosas in all these colors. These modifications might not all be that common in the UK.

        There is also a pinto pattern, Frame Overo, that mutated in NA in horses of Spanish descent. It doesn't historically exist in the UK. All the piebalds and skewbalds in the UK would be considered Tobiano pinto in NA.

        Comment


        • #5
          Ah. Color. While I was at the WEG, my friend who lives in SC received a text from a local friend that her 11 year old Friesian had been found dead in the field. It was then my friend said something along the lines of well.....there are so often genetic problems with Friesians. I was all, what?? Then I looked it up. Heart problems, intestinal problems, all presumably linked to the very small gene pool. Is it small because of selectively breeding for the black color?* The "average" age listed for most horses is 16-26. For Friesians, it is 11-16. Apparently, if they have the heart defect, they rarely live beyond 4. Shocked the heck outa me. I'm an Appy person (talk about color LOL), but have always thought Friesians were quite lovely, even though "lotsa hair" isn't my thing.

          (*Years ago, friends and I mocked an exhibition by a woman who had mostly Friesians, and then presented a "rarer than the mythical unicorn" chestnut Friesian. We joked that it had probably been exported under cover of darkness, before the breed society found out that someone's horses had produced a chestnut. Now, it seems like that might have been a horse that needed to be kept in the gene pool.)

          Comment


          • #6
            That's interesting, Belowthesalt because the black base is actually easier to express -- red is the recessive gene. The problem is the agouti gene as you'll need a double recessive (no agouti) to express black. I assume they've been breeding the agouti out as I can't recall ever seeing a bay Fresian. (Though, admittedly, in Texas it's not like I see them on every corner - ha!)

            I was at an APHA seminar a couple years ago talking to the UF color guru regarding paint breeding, since obviously that's a big deal in getting a solid or not. We don't get the performance permits appys do. Anyway, she was explaining an interesting phenomenon that the chromosome that controls gut motility also contains the lethal white gene and they figured that out since a lethal white (homozygous LWO) is... well, lethal due to the fact that their intestines are underdeveloped and contracted and they cannot move material through their intestines. It's interesting to think that various genes on chromosomes can control something like color AND development of tissue.
            Veni vidi vici. With a paint pony, nonetheless.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Arelle View Post
              That's interesting, Belowthesalt because the black base is actually easier to express -- red is the recessive gene. The problem is the agouti gene as you'll need a double recessive (no agouti) to express black. I assume they've been breeding the agouti out as I can't recall ever seeing a bay Fresian. (Though, admittedly, in Texas it's not like I see them on every corner - ha!)

              I was at an APHA seminar a couple years ago talking to the UF color guru regarding paint breeding, since obviously that's a big deal in getting a solid or not. We don't get the performance permits appys do. Anyway, she was explaining an interesting phenomenon that the chromosome that controls gut motility also contains the lethal white gene and they figured that out since a lethal white (homozygous LWO) is... well, lethal due to the fact that their intestines are underdeveloped and contracted and they cannot move material through their intestines. It's interesting to think that various genes on chromosomes can control something like color AND development of tissue.
              Yes, all Frame Overo are heterozygous for Lethal white which is why you don't breed two Frame Overo (even ones with minimal expression). 25% chance of a LW foal. Not the most functional color mutation out there, though I love my Frame Overo mare! They seem to have no issues other than that far as I can tell.

              Comment


              • #8
                The Friesian horse had a population bottleneck around 1900 with only 3 studs left, according to Wikipedia, so definitely concentrated genes.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Scribbler View Post

                  Yes, all Frame Overo are heterozygous for Lethal white which is why you don't breed two Frame Overo (even ones with minimal expression). 25% chance of a LW foal. Not the most functional color mutation out there, though I love my Frame Overo mare! They seem to have no issues other than that far as I can tell.
                  Yes; I own five currently. (As well as two W20/n, and two To/n)

                  Unfortunately, I've seen two lethals this year posted to Facebook. Stallion management wasn't posting genetic testing and in one case, sold a bred SPB who wasn't tested but was LWO/n. (Yes - solids can be positive for frame overo!) Very sad and very preventable.

                  I could also use the example that HERDA/n horses have anecdotally shown "fancier" movement - which many say is attributed to hyper extendable joints. My point was not LWO horses but how breeding for specific attributes affects other genes on the chromosomes and I find it fascinating.
                  Veni vidi vici. With a paint pony, nonetheless.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Arelle View Post
                    Anyway, she was explaining an interesting phenomenon that the chromosome that controls gut motility also contains the lethal white gene and they figured that out since a lethal white (homozygous LWO) is... well, lethal due to the fact that their intestines are underdeveloped and contracted and they cannot move material through their intestines. It's interesting to think that various genes on chromosomes can control something like color AND development of tissue.
                    That expiation isn't quite right. The gut of a lethal white foal isn't under-developed per se, but it lacks nerve cells called ganglion cells which trigger and control gut movement (peristalsis). The gut basically has a "nervous system" of its own, which doesn't form in lethal white foals. So what does this have to do with coat color? Both the primitive neural cells which give rise to the gut's network of ganglion cells and the melanocytes which produce skin and hair pigment originate from an early embryonic structure called the neural crest. Some of the embryonic cells in the neural crest migrate out from the neural crest to the gut and to the skin where they go on to become ganglion cells and melanocytes, respectively, (The ones that stay behind go on to form the brain and spinal cord.) In lethal white syndrome, that crucial cellular migration never happens. So the foal is born with no pigment cells in its hair follicles (so it's completely white) and a gut that can't move food because it lacks the nerve cells that cause the peristalsis motion (so the foal dies of colic).

                    So lethal white syndrome is a defect in only one thing: a critical cellular migration event in the early embryo. But it's a defect that leads to two seemingly separate observable abnormalities, one of which just happens to be fatal.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by aredhel View Post

                      That expiation isn't quite right. The gut of a lethal white foal isn't under-developed per se, but it lacks nerve cells called ganglion cells which trigger and control gut movement (peristalsis). The gut basically has a "nervous system" of its own, which doesn't form in lethal white foals. So what does this have to do with coat color? Both the primitive neural cells which give rise to the gut's network of ganglion cells and the melanocytes which produce skin and hair pigment originate from an early embryonic structure called the neural crest. Some of the embryonic cells in the neural crest migrate out from the neural crest to the gut and to the skin where they go on to become ganglion cells and melanocytes, respectively, (The ones that stay behind go on to form the brain and spinal cord.) In lethal white syndrome, that crucial cellular migration never happens. So the foal is born with no pigment cells in its hair follicles (so it's completely white) and a gut that can't move food because it lacks the nerve cells that cause the peristalsis motion (so the foal dies of colic).

                      So lethal white syndrome is a defect in only one thing: a critical cellular migration event in the early embryo. But it's a defect that leads to two seemingly separate observable abnormalities, one of which just happens to be fatal.
                      LOVE the scientific explanation - thank you!! I'm definitely not a scientist, nor do I play one on TV. I just breed paints.
                      Veni vidi vici. With a paint pony, nonetheless.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Arelle View Post

                        LOVE the scientific explanation - thank you!! I'm definitely not a scientist, nor do I play one on TV. I just breed paints.
                        Happy to oblige!

                        I don't know if it's ever been tested (because they die so young), but I wouldn't be surprised if lethal white foals are also born deaf. Guess where the embryonic cells that become the hair cells of the inner ear originate? (This is also why some horses with the Splash gene that end up with completely white ears are also deaf - they have no inner ear hair cells, for the same reason they have no melanocytes in the ear hair. It's the same problem - no neural crest cells got there - but it's confined to a small area of the horse's body, and therefore not usually problematic.)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Arelle View Post
                          was at an APHA seminar a couple years ago talking to the UF color guru regarding paint breeding, since obviously that's a big deal in getting a solid or not. We don't get the performance permits appys do.
                          Well, learn something new every day. I had thought that the reason APHA had "breeding stock" paints was so they were permitted to show, like CPO Appies ('cause in the old days, non-color Appies couldn't show.) There was a lovely breeding stock paint gelding at my old barn - blood bay, four white socks, full blaze - but it was irrelevant since they were trail/hunt seat riders who rarely showed and never at breed shows. A really solid (pun) citizen type horse who would go anywhere, do anything from age 3.

                          For myself, meh. CPO. The horse I owned before the present one was one of three that the breeder had for me to look at. One was black & white, but only 15.2 and TB build, the other - the one I bought - was a blanketed chestnut a little over 16 hands at 4 and finished at 16.2 - and the third was solid - looked like a WB. But I while I acknowledge that even Foundation bred horses occasionally come out solid, I was more of the mind that if I'm buying an Appy, I want the color.

                          I showed almost exclusively open - eventing, hunter/jumper, dressage and have had only Appies since 1977. I always laughed that when I retired my last eventer from eventing and thought I'd try out the Appy circuit, he was Circuit Champion Jumper at his very first double-point show - at age 19. Never even had to jump off. I realized the breed circuit wasn't for me, and stuck to open from then on.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X