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PPE - Looking for opinions

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  • jmp1993
    started a topic PPE - Looking for opinions

    PPE - Looking for opinions

    Sorry, it's a novel. *TL; DR at the bottom.
    Hello! I recently started leasing a horse that I am now seriously considering buying. He is a (laugh if you must) TWH/Appaloosa cross, 8 years old, 15.1 hands. Not the horse I thought I would get as a first horse but he has the most willing attitude, gave me my confidence in jumping back after I lost it due to an injury, and has a fantastic personality. We took him to a show this weekend - it was his second ever, first under a covered arena and he did so well. The video of our equitation round is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUIReJvrwDg&t=1s
    Today was our pre-purchase exam. He was doing well until we got to the hind end flexions. Front flexions were all negative. Hind left overall was 1/5. Hind right became a problem - ankle/hock were 2/5 and stifle was 3/5. My trainer and I were baffled. He never presented with lameness and felt good undersaddle - I feel bad now thinking I should have caught it. Please see video above for reference on his undersaddle movement.
    I got back into riding after about a two year break six months ago. This horse started seriously jumping six months ago and we've come a long way together.
    The vet is thinking either stifle or SI joint as he is also sensitive when pressure is applied to the rump. The owner (my trainer) paid for a stifle injection and now we're going to wait - have a follow-up in two weeks. X-rays taken on his right side, were all clean.
    My goal for myself is to have a fun horse I can dabble in the 3'3" hunter/jumper rounds, pursue up to Training level eventing, and attend clinics.
    My thinking is he was pushed into work too quickly which is why he is presenting with such significant lameness. Before my trainer got him he was sitting in a field for a year+. She bought him for his brain and he has been a fantastic addition to the lesson program. However, as conditioning is not really the focus of a lesson program, that fell to the wayside and I think he is suffering for that.
    I am happy to take multiple steps back, spend 6 months really focusing on conditioning and ease him back into jumping. I am also well aware many horses require maintenance and will happily spend the money to maintain his body. However, I want to be realistic and am looking for people who don't know the horse at all to take a quick peek and indicate what they would do in my situation. Thank you so much for reading!
    TL; DR: video of undersaddle movement above; horse flexed badly during prepurchase on right hind, clean x-rays, seeking feedback.

  • js
    replied
    Originally posted by findeight View Post
    Please keep in mind that several who have responded here, self included, have remarked that this horse does not have the type of physical build that would lead to success at the jobs and levels you say are your future goals even if sound. Maybe suitable as an an itroductory mount but not over 2’6”, Just does not have the hip and shoulder angles to allow it, nor was he bred for that job.
    I'm going to repost this so it doesn't get overlooked. OP, horse is wonderful and looks like a nice safe mount but be honest with yourself about how far he can take you. I agree with the post I have quoted, he may not have the physical build to do all that you want to do.

    Leave a comment:


  • shiloh
    replied
    Originally posted by jmp1993 View Post

    I agree with both of your points. Makes it a difficult decision haha.
    Would you say I should leverage this into a drop in price if I do decide to purchase?
    Absolutely. My last horse failed his PPE miserably from the knees down. I mean, my vet HATED him from there but loved him from knees up. Price went down from $2500 to $500. With good care he lasted many years before it all went south.

    Leave a comment:


  • HeyJealousy
    replied
    Dr. Mansmann is excellent and I'm curious to see what he has to say!

    Leave a comment:


  • findeight
    replied
    Good idea, price injections with your vet if it is determined he’s sound enough to consider purchases. Most price by injection site and specific contents of the injections. Plus farm call, tranq and any X-rays that might be prudent before sticking them.

    Used to get hocks done yearly, upper and lower. 4 sites IIRC, might have been 6...been awhile. 4-500 all in. Horse also got monthly Legend at 100 per. That’s close to 2k a year for maintainance.

    Leave a comment:


  • eponacelt
    replied
    Originally posted by Bluey View Post

    He does move oddly behind here and there, but consider his breeding, TWH/appy.

    You get that in some TWH crosses I saw, rather common.
    I gave lessons with those horses when I was teaching in AL.
    They tend to be a bit more substantial, but maybe the appy used was on the lighter side?
    This. I saw this horse move and said "TWH hind legs. Normal."

    All that said, I had a PSG horse that was positively crippled when you did cross-flexions of the stifle. No arthritic changes, and he took me from 1st through PSG and got me my Bronze Medal and 3/4 of my Silver Medal. Flexions are not proof positive that the horse is lame. They tell you where he may have some issues and soreness, and a lot of that can be managed with the right injections.

    My question to you would be, "Can you afford to do twice yearly stifle/SI/hock injections that will make the horse happy?"

    If the answer is yes, and you love him, I'd take the change for such a reasonably priced, charming animal.

    Leave a comment:


  • findeight
    replied
    Please keep in mind that several who have responded here, self included, have remarked that this horse does not have the type of physical build that would lead to success at the jobs and levels you say are your future goals even if sound. Maybe suitable as an an itroductory mount but not over 2’6”, Just does not have the hip and shoulder angles to allow it, nor was he bred for that job.

    Leave a comment:


  • RainWeasley
    replied
    Originally posted by jmp1993 View Post
    Quick update for those interested!
    I've contacted Dr. Richard Mansmann (a lameness specialist) for a second opinion. I sent him the PPE findings, the two videos above, pics of his feet, and a conformation picture - he said he would get back to me this evening.
    Thanks again for all the advice - I appreciate everyone helping me learn as I go.
    Keep us updated! I'm curious to hear what he says.

    Also, Mansmann, that is a fantastic name

    Leave a comment:


  • jmp1993
    replied
    Quick update for those interested!
    I've contacted Dr. Richard Mansmann (a lameness specialist) for a second opinion. I sent him the PPE findings, the two videos above, pics of his feet, and a conformation picture - he said he would get back to me this evening.
    Thanks again for all the advice - I appreciate everyone helping me learn as I go.

    Leave a comment:


  • enjoytheride
    replied
    I agree with the other posters, he does not look 100% sound in the video, as a been there done that former upper level packer in his early 20s getting you into jumping who cares.

    As an 8yo horse just starting over fences, big deal.

    I also agree with the poster who says this is not your Training level eventer. A good horse for you now, maybe, depending on soundness.

    Leave a comment:


  • IPEsq
    replied
    I also see some bunny hopping in the first video when he's on the right lead. However, I think that's likely left hind or more likely SI, not the right hind. Overall, he does not travel like a stifle horse, even considering his breeding. Sore SI could also be aggravated by flexing the opposite hind limb. I think he looks better in the second video, and there he's also better with the pace, straighter, largely a bit more uphill / balanced.

    He seems entirely suitable for this job he's doing now, and he could use some more conditioning and likely some body work and maybe veterinary support. That said, I don't really see this horse as fulfilling your ultimate goals. In which case, I'm with the group of advocating you continue to lease him for the time being if that's an option.

    Leave a comment:


  • paintedpony
    replied
    Please read bewoulf's last post (34) and watch your eq video again!! Horse is using L to support takeoff and is lagging on R. Changes are simple or not pretty due to R Hind.

    This horse is not just lacking in fitness and balance, he is not sound. That being said, he is cute, co operative and appears to be an all round good citizen. I would be happy to consider an in barn arrangement that allows you continued use on a risk managed basis. You look comfortable and happy riding him which is valuable. I encourage you to continue riding him. I would not consider a purchase.

    I do not see this horse working at much above 2'6". Nothing bad about that, a lot of people cruise around at 2'6" 2'9" forever. Evaluate where you are going, and how you would support or sell this horse if you move up, and he can not, or worse, you find yourself with an eight year old pasture puff. Caution.




    Leave a comment:


  • findeight
    replied
    Don’t see kind of canter in this one that allows a horse to reach up behind, plant the hinds and power off the ground. He seems to want to drop and dive into the canter both ways instead of shifting back to strike off as you want. The speeding up might be compensating for not wanting to or not being able to rock back because he either can't do it or it hurts to do so.


    He appears pretty short strided with no reaching the hind up into the front hoof-print as we want to see in a forward moving horse, probably conformationally related as TWHs are not bred to have the great gallop as horses that jump need.

    I also see different size steps from one back leg to the other, generally that's soundness related. Looking more carefully, I see the other things noted but that asymmetrical stride is the thing you need to learn to see as it’s the best indicator somethings not right. Even if sound, not seeing a great candidate for a jumping career, just not built for it.

    But he may be a good horse for beginner level riders and trail riding. Not for 5500 if you have any ambition to resell him though. Lease him if you just have to have him.

    Leave a comment:


  • candyappy
    replied
    Originally posted by TMares View Post
    Buy him. He's a keeper. Conditioning and strength training will do wonders
    I agree 100%

    Leave a comment:


  • Redlei44
    replied
    Super cute horse! What a sweetie.

    OP, in the second video you posted and mentioned that he was fresher, I actually see that as the pace required for him to make the strides - I think of it as a horse being perfectly capable of getting down the lines but having a “true 12-foot stride” instead of what a lot of modern warmbloods (for example) have, which is closer to a 14’ stride. He certainly doesn’t look spicy or running away to me in that second video.

    Which is perfectly expected given his breeding and current capabilities - just wanted to point it out as another factor to consider when assessing his potential for (regularly) jumping over 3’.

    I agree with the suggestion to long-term full lease him if at all possible. See if the lameness resolves and stays resolved/managed, see if his fitness progresses as you’d hope, see if the lead changes solidify, and see if his body and brain take to jumping bigger jumps.

    Leave a comment:


  • ecileh
    replied
    My vet always starts a PPE by saying "all I am doing here is giving you a picture of this horse at this moment in time"...to my mind "failing" a flexion is not necessarily a reason to not buy. You just have to be realistic about your goals and what the horse may or may not be capable of at that moment in time. I have never once encountered a horse that didn't come up positive in at least one of the flexion tests to some degree--including both of my own. One of which was 3 when I bought her--the other 13. Heck, if you gave me flexion tests, I would trot off crippled.

    I agree with those above that your goals might be lofty for this horse--not because I see a lameness in the video (I do not) but because 3'3 and Training level are serious jumps and knowing there are positive flexions before he has started that as a career gives me pause. But that does not mean he can't be serviceably sound at lower levels. Have you ever done 3'3 or Training? Do you KNOW you want that for yourself and your horse, or do you think it looks like fun and want to try it out?

    Even serious jumps can be managed with a serviceably sound horse once or twice a year if, the rest of the time, you are jumping lower and competing at a lesser impact level. Do you have a burning need to tear up the cross country course? Are you planning to campaign every weekend, or just compete for fun over the course of a few shows a year?

    I don't need you to answer all of these questions for me...but if you consider them for yourself you might find your answer as to whether to buy or lease longer while you wait for another to come along.

    Leave a comment:


  • RainWeasley
    replied
    Originally posted by beowulf View Post

    When you are assessing lameness, you are watching the horse as a whole - not just one leg -- things like paying attention to the trot and upward transitions, as well as downward, how they move around turns, how they push off for a jump or what they do before a fence, how their tail and head are carried, how evenly their legs land, can all make the difference in detecting subtle lameness that are not as obvious as a limping leg. How they push off before a fence, and how they land - these are tiny clues that can tell you about onesidedness in the horse, weaknesses, or discomfort. These are signs of lameness. A weakness is a lameness.

    Some parts of note:
    0:00 - 0:05 - you can see, that RH is landing straighter and shorter than LH - see how it bows out, then "slams" down?

    0:05 - 0:07 - strung out canter, but watch the tail, and watch how that RH stifle will not "push off" for canter depart.

    0:23 - first jump effort, watch the RH before all departs - the horse is making an effort to push off with his LH; watch the approach before all departs and see how he is "shuffling" to fit his LH down before takeoff. He is primarily pushing off with his LH to my eye.

    0:25 + Watch the canter, how drastically different left lead canter is from right lead, where on right lead there is very little separation of the hinds in canter strides

    0:52 - you can see there is some "stifley" action going on here around the turn, the landing of the leg is not smooth, the fetlock "snaps" back up soon as hoof lands, etc - this is indicative of a horse that is sorefooted behind;

    1:08 - again watch the hind legs through the turn, very little separation of hind legs during canter, again horse pushes off to jump primarily with LH instead of RH, and lands on the wrong lead

    Some things to watch over the fences, is how the horse "trails" the RH over the fence; part of it is natural due to how horses jump fences and what lead they are on, but the most obvious instance is around ~1:14, where he clears the fence and you can see he is not articulating his stifle fully and is instead "pulling" the RH along. He does this several times.

    1:25 (easier to see, if you go to "slow mode" - watch how both hinds land almost at the same time mid canter stride)

    1:27 Again around the turn, you see his fetlocks "snapping" and very little separation of hind legs around the turn; that tightness around the turn is indicative of some sort of soreness --

    1:28 - 1:32 -- check out how he wont fully articulate the hind stifle right after the fence - see how short strided that RH (outside leg) is?

    1:35 - watch the hind legs in the trot - that is a "stifley" trot - though he is also strung out.

    1:44 + watch how far the LH circumducts inward to load off the RH


    Re: the gaited 3 year old.. be careful - gaited horses are usually bred to "bob" their head like that, it is considered a good thing and a sign, iirc, of a park horse that is a pleasure to ride - it is not always a sign of lameness in those breeds.

    I still think this horse is really nice. I would not say he is blatantly lame, but I could tell he is not quite 100% comfortable. I'd be curious to see what his stifles look like, because I do think he's battling some general weakness in that area.
    That is super educational, thanks!

    And I actually wasn't looking at the head of the gaited horse, I just noticed that his RH didn't step up nearly as much as his left, short striding. At least it looked like it to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • beowulf
    replied
    Originally posted by RainWeasley View Post
    This might be a dumb question, but the people seeing lameness in the equitation video, can you point out the time signature of where you are seeing it and what you are seeing? I'm looking and looking, but I don't see anything beyond maybe a horse that needs to build up some fitness and get stronger in the hind and more balanced. Trying to figure out what I'm missing. The only thing I can see is that he seems to prefer his left lead, but I know plenty of sound horses that prefer one lead over another until they even out. I'm looking on a computer screen so it's large.

    The gaited 3 year old looks lame to me, even at a gait. I can see that. I can't see it on this guy though. And I'd like to get a better eye for it, I'm always paranoid about my horse.
    When you are assessing lameness, you are watching the horse as a whole - not just one leg -- things like paying attention to the trot and upward transitions, as well as downward, how they move around turns, how they push off for a jump or what they do before a fence, how their tail and head are carried, how evenly their legs land, can all make the difference in detecting subtle lameness that are not as obvious as a limping leg. How they push off before a fence, and how they land - these are tiny clues that can tell you about onesidedness in the horse, weaknesses, or discomfort. These are signs of lameness. A weakness is a lameness.

    Some parts of note:
    0:00 - 0:05 - you can see, that RH is landing straighter and shorter than LH - see how it bows out, then "slams" down?

    0:05 - 0:07 - strung out canter, but watch the tail, and watch how that RH stifle will not "push off" for canter depart.

    0:23 - first jump effort, watch the RH before all departs - the horse is making an effort to push off with his LH; watch the approach before all departs and see how he is "shuffling" to fit his LH down before takeoff. He is primarily pushing off with his LH to my eye.

    0:25 + Watch the canter, how drastically different left lead canter is from right lead, where on right lead there is very little separation of the hinds in canter strides

    0:52 - you can see there is some "stifley" action going on here around the turn, the landing of the leg is not smooth, the fetlock "snaps" back up soon as hoof lands, etc - this is indicative of a horse that is sorefooted behind;

    1:08 - again watch the hind legs through the turn, very little separation of hind legs during canter, again horse pushes off to jump primarily with LH instead of RH, and lands on the wrong lead

    Some things to watch over the fences, is how the horse "trails" the RH over the fence; part of it is natural due to how horses jump fences and what lead they are on, but the most obvious instance is around ~1:14, where he clears the fence and you can see he is not articulating his stifle fully and is instead "pulling" the RH along. He does this several times.

    1:25 (easier to see, if you go to "slow mode" - watch how both hinds land almost at the same time mid canter stride)

    1:27 Again around the turn, you see his fetlocks "snapping" and very little separation of hind legs around the turn; that tightness around the turn is indicative of some sort of soreness --

    1:28 - 1:32 -- check out how he wont fully articulate the hind stifle right after the fence - see how short strided that RH (outside leg) is?

    1:35 - watch the hind legs in the trot - that is a "stifley" trot - though he is also strung out.

    1:44 + watch how far the LH circumducts inward to load off the RH


    Re: the gaited 3 year old.. be careful - gaited horses are usually bred to "bob" their head like that, it is considered a good thing and a sign, iirc, of a park horse that is a pleasure to ride - it is not always a sign of lameness in those breeds.

    I still think this horse is really nice. I would not say he is blatantly lame, but I could tell he is not quite 100% comfortable. I'd be curious to see what his stifles look like, because I do think he's battling some general weakness in that area.

    Leave a comment:


  • jmp1993
    replied
    Originally posted by Jo View Post
    My question is - why the jump to purchase instead of continuing to lease? It sounds like a win-win for you and your trainer. You can continue your growth on the horse, she gets the benefit of you putting good miles on the horse, but you're not tied into a horse that's potentially best limited to a 2' arena. Food for thought...?
    I appreciate the insight! My hesitation was I am only half leasing currently which means he was being used in lessons (before coming up lame) so any progress I was making was being undone when a less experienced rider got on him.
    But based on the ppe, the feedback y’all have given me and my own thinking I do believe a lease is a solid way to go. I would probably then pursue a full lease to get him into a solid conditioning program

    Leave a comment:


  • Bluey
    replied
    Originally posted by RainWeasley View Post
    This might be a dumb question, but the people seeing lameness in the equitation video, can you point out the time signature of where you are seeing it and what you are seeing? I'm looking and looking, but I don't see anything beyond maybe a horse that needs to build up some fitness and get stronger in the hind and more balanced. Trying to figure out what I'm missing. The only thing I can see is that he seems to prefer his left lead, but I know plenty of sound horses that prefer one lead over another until they even out. I'm looking on a computer screen so it's large.

    The gaited 3 year old looks lame to me, even at a gait. I can see that. I can't see it on this guy though. And I'd like to get a better eye for it, I'm always paranoid about my horse.
    What I was seeing, only time I watched the video when first posted, is one turn going away his right hock was not turning right, left behind and he had to pull himself.
    I assumed, along with the longer simple changes, that it was the half TWH at play there, if he inherited a little of the gaited, hind end pacing conformation.

    When I have time later will look again.

    You do know the video programs have functions where you can slow them down considerably and so see more of how the footfalls happen?
    That helps see so much more, that you then confirm when sped back up to normal, if it is reflected there also, not just the moment of the stride looking odd in slow motion.

    We can take any horse and video apart, but then, the proof is in how it works for a rider and it's goals, no matter what may seem less than perfect there.

    Leave a comment:

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